Patiently waiting for Truth

15 hours ago, xero said:

Well, like I said. I'm reading this paper.

https://rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Libery-of-Conscience.pdf

Do you seriously need to read that stuff to know about your own conscience ?  Or is it just as a matter of something to read ? Are you trying to justify something ? 

Update :

Having read the first 6 pages i can see where it is coming from and i can see that you will thoroughly enjoy it . You may even try to use it as an excuse for the dictatorship by your GB, down through the ranks and the Elders.  

The first 6 pages deliberately uses a bad example of a wicked man pretending that his church / elders are picking on him. This is the type of example that JWs use on this forum. The difference being that JWs blame innocent people for wrongdoing if those innocent people decide to leave the wicked JW Org. 

On 3/27/2021 at 2:12 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Pray to God for his direct handling of your issues and he will say he has underlings to handle your problem. Complain to him that the underlings are imperfect and he will observe that you are no great shakes yourself

You condemn my laughing emojis, BUT, you try to turn serious issues into laughable subjects, in which case you are much worse than I. 

But what you comment proved (although not intentionally) is that God has no interest in the Watchtower or JW Org.  For if God through Christ were to control your wicked orgs, then things would be done properly and those orgs (plural) would be clean and trustworthy. 

This is a new topic (because we are supposed to do this) based on information given by @JW Insider 

JWI gave information about someone being told NOT TO  partake of the emblems at the Memorial.

This evening is the Memorial of the last meal that Christ shared with His closest followers.

Whilst we remember how Christ gave his life I would like to share a scripture at Revelation 5 

9, And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, ¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

This scripture shows that Christ 'was slaughtered' for the Anointed ones.

So I have a question. Do JWs who feel they are of the Anointed have to ask the Elders for permission to partake of the Emblems ?

Q2. Does any human on this earth have the right to judge if another person can partake of those emblems ? 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

On 2/10/2020 at 10:21 PM, 4Jah2me said:

He must be talking about JW Org here 

You see what I'm talking about?

  Yes  I agree with you, and i laugh about it.  But it fitted so well, about Big Brother / GB and want to muzzle people /  keep everything inside the Org, only tell the elders. 

The topic was about the world, but it shows how the GB / W/t / JW Org mimic the world closely. 

On 3/26/2021 at 3:30 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

“It used to be that being crazy meant something. Nowadays, everyone is crazy” - Charles Manson

Yes people can't even be an individual now. Being crazy doesn't mean being different if everyone is crazy.   

On 3/26/2021 at 11:34 AM, LNN said:

 

Oh dear. I'm glad the UK left that lot behind. 

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm sure that whenever someone admits a fault about themselves, or the organization they are associated with, or a fault among the first century anointed apostles and disciples,

Fault 1  mixing up 'the org' with the first century anointed.

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we are already aware that some persons will be anxious to jump on those faults to either trash the confessor, the associated organization, or even to trash the anointed apostles of Jesus themselves.

Fault 2. similar to fault 1 but even more insulting to the anointed apostles of Christ. 

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I think most people can see through an obsession for trashing the WTS organization with any excuse possible.

Fault 3. Presuming that anyone wishes to 'trash' the WTS org, using excuses not facts. 

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I expect that if a non-Witness participant here writes something about Bitcoin, you would look for a way to say:

"Just like your GB because they cover up CSA, and we should wait for a True Anointed to tell us whether we should use Bitcoin."

Fault 4. Creating a diversion by misplacing the blame, because you do not have truthful answers. 

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, that was facetious and insulting, but I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't already happened in parts of the forum that I don't bother to read.

Fault 5. Fantasising without basis. 

Um, well done. quite good overall   You see I can laugh at myself and accept your insults, and not get bitter or angry. Have a great day. 

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. ...

Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?”  (From John 6)

That's a good one. Jesus was obviously testing them because it does sound off putting. So those that stayed with him. Did they stay because Holy Spirit guided their hearts and minds, or was it that they simply didn't have anywhere else to go ? 

It was a bit of a sheep and goats dividing moment maybe.

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'd say it was more of a mental condition, referring to the metaphorical difference between heart and mind. I am just admitting that the elders likely made a mistake, probably because they assumed that neither of these were truly anointed, because of traditional conditioning around previous teachings. (Assumptions about the "Replacement doctrine," "seniority," worthiness, etc.)

 

So then tell me, Who is the guilty party here ? 

the elders likely made a mistake, probably because they assumed that neither of these were truly anointed, because of traditional conditioning around previous teachings.

because of traditional conditioning around previous teachings. Tell us about this bit please.

Conditioning.......... Brain washing, indoctrination. 

Previous teachings............... False 'truth'. Fake information from a fake leadership. 

You and Tom write sentences so freely, without really thinking about what you are writing. 

But in truth you are admitting that the GB and the Elders are not fit for purpose. 

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is a scene in a Netflix show I just watched a few days ago where "Reporter Jack" asks Jerry Rubin a loaded question containing a false supposition, and Jerry Rubin answers: "You've posed that question in the form of a lie."

Leaders of a Jehovah's Witnesses church 'made a 15-year-old girl listen to an audio tape of her own rape for four hours for her to say it was "consensual"', Utah Supreme Court hears

It would seem that JWs use the same tactics. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8942521/Jehovah-Witnesses-leaders-girl-15-listen-recording-rape-four-hours.html

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Does it destroy the collective? I'd say you have a profound way of theatrics. You, think, God is going to punish your former congregation for the disgusting things you do now? Before you answer that, don't drink or take meds that will make your brain dull.

 

Another joke from CC but he actually hangs himself with his own rope here. God will punish me as an individual BECAUSE I have an individual conscience. God will not punish the congregation for my sins because God will not be using collective conscience.

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Every so often I should probably repeat the following, though none of it sinks in:

It is part of the package. If God is worth his salt, he will provide adequate human leadership. He will not leave his worshipers rudderless, each prey to whatever worldly trends are cresting in their particular time and area. He will provide adequate shepherding. Go to the world of churches if you want rudderless, if you are content with each one simply building his own personal relationship with God, and enjoy whatever “unity” you find there.

Jehovah’s people will cut their shepherds some slack, just as was necessary in the first century, because they are human. But they also recognize that these ones will be relentlessly attacked simply for the Christian shepherding work that they do.

 

This whole comment above is so funny that it's hard to know where to start to answer it. I presume Tom is on the wine or vodka or something. 

Of course Tom will now provide proof of God's true guidance and give names of the organisations that God used from the year 100 through to 1800. Tom will now show how God was using specific organisations when, ops, That Russell guy, he said there was no need of an Organisation, and he had plenty of people agreeing with him it seems. 

Tom also deliberately tries to hide the FACT that I am NOT Anti- organisation. Even governments are organised to a degree. Families are organised. Businesses are organied. So too, religion will be organised. 

Let's quote Tom here " If God is worth his salt, he will provide adequate human leadership."

Yes Tom, God will provide a True Anointed remnant to replace ALL false religions in good time, before the Judgement comes. 

Quote "Jehovah’s people will cut their shepherds some slack, just as was necessary in the first century,"

Yes well. the blind leading the blind. Catholics will probably cut the Pope and the priests some slack too. 

But please give me 5 examples of this 'first century' slackness, where the 'followers' cut their leaders some slack. 

Quote "But they also recognize that these ones will be relentlessly attacked simply for the Christian shepherding work that they do."

No, JWs are so blind that they believe the things they are told. Most JWs do not do research into things such as CSA. They do not research scripture from an outside viewpoint. They believe that their leaders are the ones to follow without question. And most JWs easily give up their conscience to follow orders. 

Sorry to be so blunt, but when you talk rubbish then you have to be open to a reply. 

On 3/26/2021 at 2:56 PM, JW Insider said:

I am not aware of "many accounts" but if we're honest, I'd bet that most of us here know of at least one case in any average sized congregation. I just wrote up a related experience of a sister who I think no one would consider mentally imbalanced, but who was told to hold off a few years partaking in public because awareness of her "calling" was causing distress for another sister who was then only one in that congregation who partook. I just removed the long-winded version of the experience because it's too easy to figure out who these ones were.

Who thought they had the GOD GIVEN or CHRIST GIVEN right to tell her not to partake of the emblems ?

In my opinion, if you were there at the time and you said nothing then you are just as guilty as that one whom gave the ORDER  not to partake. Remember clearly what Jesus said. 

Matthew 25 :40

 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ ⁴⁶  These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

JWI 'Just wrote up a related experience'  as if it was just writing about today's weather. Do you people not see the importance of such things concerning the Anointed ? 

The other thought is, that if the other sister was distressed then maybe she needed to examine her own heart condition as to why she would be distressed. 

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There are millions of ex-witnesses that will argue, they don't believe in "disfellowship" because the word is not in the Bible,

The problem is not the act of disfellowshipping. The problems are, the reasons for disfellowshipping, and that scripture say to take it before the Congregation, before disfellowshipping. BUT the Elders act in secret, behind closed doors and do not give the congregation true reasons for disfellowshipping someone. 

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Forget what other people might perceive, it's your own conscience that God sees. God, is NOT going around and saying, whatever a member of Christ Church thinks and does wrong, the entire congregation or the entire church will suffer, its consequence.

So this destroys the idea of 'collective conscience'.   And it proves the idea of individual conscience. 

19 hours ago, xero said:

Conscience is like an internal scale too but it's one that weighs things in accordance with its own experiences.

Rubbish. but now I get a glimpse of how ex Elders think. Are you suggesting that a person would have to be a Pedophile to know that it is wrong ?  Do you then have to experience everything to have a conscience about it ? NO.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Lately, I'm mostly just a stamp licker. It's all so efficient, I can't get in enough hours to meet my goals. (Unless my printer jams. Then, I'm back on track again.*)

*I've been accused of pushing the envelope.

Yes and it seems the Watchtower are even supplying the paper with a special logo in the bottom corner. One that can be read by 'posh' cell phones. 

19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You are always here arguing, not only with those who hate the faith, but with those who love it.

This is a strange expression. Who hate THE FAITH.   Faith is a personal strong belief in something or someone unseen but yet 'known'.  

Are you replacing the Watchtowers words 'the Truth' with your words 'The Faith' ?  

It would appear that 'the faith' of JWs is in the things seen, not unseen. Those things seen being the GB and the massive amount of real estate that the W/t own. 

21 hours ago, César Chávez said:

the collective conscience of the elders

Read this as, dictatorship of the Elders. 

22 hours ago, xero said:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/collective-conscience-educational-context-society-saumya-sharma-sam-/

Collective conscious or collective conscience (French: conscience collective) is the set of shared beliefs, ideas and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society. The term was introduced by the French Émile Durkheim in his Division of Labour in Society in 1893.

And you xero lick it up as if it's strawberry jam. 

22 hours ago, xero said:

You ought to google once in a while.

https://www.thoughtco.com/collective-consciousness-definition-3026118

 

But what you are doing here is, putting your trust in 'men'.  It is so funny how JWs will deny somethings 'men' say, but happily follow other things that 'men' say when it serves their purpose.  

On 3/25/2021 at 9:00 AM, Anna said:

Hmmmm.... I wonder if you would have known ANY of this had you not been contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses....

I'll give you a clue.  I am alive, so my mother must have fed me some reasonable food when I was young. However my mother was a whore and she was the cause of my father's death, so I hated her. 

Now apply that thinking to JW Org. Within a life time a person (or an Org) may do a couple of good things, but it does not excuse all the wickedness.

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Where have you been, all the time you were a supposed witness? Did, scripture sink in at all? 

Yes scripture sank in and stayed in. It was Watchtower teachings that i threw away because they are lies  

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

How about Paul, that wasn't commissioned by Christ, directly

What rubbish. Paul was directly commissioned by Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Paul when Paul was Saul. 

Acts 9 :4

4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2021/03/25/jehovahs-witnesses-congregation-vicariously-liable/

In The Trustees of the Barry Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses v BXB [2021] EWCA Civ 356, the Court of Appeal has offered further guidance on vicarious liability following Supreme Court decisions last year in VM Morrison Supermarkets PLC v Various Claimants [2020] UKSC 12 and Barclays Bank v Various Claimants [2020] UKSC 13.

As set out in these posts by Robert Kellar QC and Anna Williams, the ‘law of vicarious liability is on the move’ (in the words of Lord Phillips). This case, however, illustrates certain settled principles emerging. In this case, the decision that Barry Congregation was vicariously liable for the rape of Mrs B by Mark Sewell, an elder of the Congregation, in 1990, was upheld.

Mark Sewell was convicted of the rape (amongst other offences) of Mrs B in 2014. Mrs B suffered episodes of depression and post-traumatic disorder. She brought a claim against, amongst others, the Trustees of the Barry Congregation for the injuries suffered as a result of the rape claiming they were vicariously liable. There was a second limb to the claim related to the investigation and ‘judicial process’ undertaken by the congregation when Mrs B reported the rape to elders in 1991. However, because the High Court found that the Barry Congregation was vicariously liable, the second limb was not considered.

Taking these features of the relationship together, the following conclusions can be drawn:

(a) The fact that Mark Sewell held a position in the Congregation (initially, ministerial servant) was an important part of the reason why Mr and Mrs B started to associate with Mark and Mary Sewell.

(b) But for Mark Sewell’s and Tony Sewell’s position as elders, Mr and Mrs B would probably not have remained friends with Mark Sewell by the time of the rape. There was, therefore, the ‘strong causative link’ referred to by Lord Phillips in the Catholic Child Welfare Society case at [86].

(c) The Defendants created or significantly enhanced the risk that Mark Sewell would sexually abuse Mrs B by creating the conditions in which the two might be alone together through (i) Tony Sewell’s implied instruction that she continue to act as his confidante (an instruction which carried the authority conferred by the Defendants because of his position as an elder) and (ii) investing Mark Sewell with the authority of an elder, thereby making it less likely that Mrs B (or others) would question his motives and emboldening him to think that he could act as he wished with little fear of adverse consequences.

(d) The rape took place in circumstances closely connected to the carrying out by Mark Sewell and Mrs B of religious duties at a venue – Mark Sewell’s home – which was ‘approved’ by the elders of the Barry Congregation.

(e) One of the reasons for the rape was Mark Sewell’s belief that an act of adultery was necessary to provide scriptural grounds for him to divorce Mary. His mindset, in which he appears to have equiparated rape and adultery, was closely bound up with his position as an elder.”

But still JWs say it isn't the Elders or MS that commit these crimes.