Patiently waiting for Truth

12 hours ago, xero said:

Life is so much better when you don't let curiosity overtake you by unblocking bad smells you previously blocked.

Actually what Xero means is, his life is so much better when he turns his back on truth .  His choice of course, if he cannot face reality.  Maybe he is going back to his mother's basement now. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

I know one thing you're not doing. Preaching the good news of God's Kingdom. Opposers are like fat leftist introverts who stare at their shoes and play dungeons and dragons and go to cosplay conventions because they loathe life and the demands it makes on them. Therefore anything excellent, they seek to tear down. They don't create, because to create is to be subject to criticism. Nope. They just like to sit in their fat, unaccomplished obesity in their mother's basement.

And this person says he is an Elder.  @JW Insider has already called him out about D O's, asking him when he was last in the Org. 

And once again this person presumes it knows what I'm doing or not doing. 

I have made known and will continue to make known what future this 'world' has and what future the Earth has. i make known who is the ruler of this 'world' and why. And of course i make known who Almighty God is and who Christ is, and what they have done, what they are doing, and will do in the future.  BUT i don't pretend to know the 'day or the hour' of the coming Judgement. 

But xero's comment is really sad and unfortunately shows some kind of mental instability. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

I shouldn't reply. But hey. Buddy... Unless you are part of a denomination you aren't going to go door to door pushing living by the Bible. If you do w/o being part of a group, then you'll come off like the dangerous kook you likely are.

So when you go door to door you offer people free BIBLES do you ?  No, you offer the words of men, not the words of God. You promote living by the GB / Watchtower / JW Org rules, not living by God's standards.  And yes I can promote God and Christ and the Kingdom, without being part of an Organisation.  

I do wonder what JWs think that followers of Christ called themselves or were called by others. Oh yes it was Christians. But being called a Christian isn't good enough for JWs because they have to prove that they serve the JW Org. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

Opposers would insist that

12 hours ago, xero said:

Opposers would argue that

This is so funny........   It's @TrueTomHarley  all over again.  Tom is xero your AKA ? 

Firstly he lumps all so called 'Opposers' together.

Secondly he thinks he knows exactly what those Opposers would think or do. 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is similar to how many commentaries handle almost any Bible reference or teaching that might not be obvious. And there are Christian-oriented people who learn their Bible through and through with this kind of non-presumptuous, non-dogmatic teaching style. Changing a doctrine under this paradigm need not result in any debatable anomalies.

Basically leaving yourself wriggle movement. But the True Anointed won't need to do that because their information will be through Holy Spirit. JWs will be shocked when it happens. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

People don't have the stamina to be on the bleeding edge of enthusiasm in perpetuity.

The Org once taught that people should serve God because GOD DESERVES TO BE SERVED, not for the gain of everlasting life. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

On the other hand, I suspect w/o the expectations related to the imminence of the kingdom's arrival, this organization known as JW's wouldn't exist.

Yes, the Watchtower / JW org relies on MONEY to keep them running. The money comes from dragging in more innocent people that believe the lies about 'Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon'. So those Orgs have to keep pushing the lies that Armageddon is coming in five minutes, so you'd better get baptised in this Org. 

13 hours ago, xero said:

To listen to some, you'd imagine they'd suggest that to promote adherence to the Bible or any particular denomination one would have to first find one

Does anyone see the problem with Xero's comment above ?

Well, he deliberately confuses the issue by putting the BIBLE and denomination in the same 'pot'.  

Adherence to the BIBLE is NOT the same as adherence to any particular denomination. But xero trys to pretend it is all the same. Xero, you are wrong.

On 3/23/2021 at 4:17 AM, César Chávez said:

How so, John. Explain, how the Watchtower doesn't baptize? Are you suggesting, in order to be baptized, like the Catholics, the father has to literally say, you are baptized, in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit?

How about Srecko, chime in since you agree with John.

Matthew 28 : 18 & 19. 

 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. ¹⁹  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 

It was a straightforward command from Jesus himself.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

You are able to come up with some logical reasoning, but then you let go of reason and start assuming things that aren't true. JW do not worship the org. because all know that worship belongs to God only.

JWs might know that worship belongs to God but, 1. the GB call themselves the F&DS and 2. the GB say that God and Christ trust the GB. Hence JWs serve the GB.  Xero made some important comment about an 'authority' demanding that it's followers believed even things not understood. Then Xero extended that by saying that those people that were forced to believe, had to tell those things not understood, to other people.  Basically, doing the ministry or cart work. 

Here in the UK we have (or did pre-lockdown) car boot sales, where people sell their own belongings. At these events JWs have a table displaying literature. NO bibles, just literature. Those JWs are not offering the word of God, they are offering the words of Men. In that way those JWs are worshipping the GB and the Org, and so are people on the door to door work that give out magazines or tracks, giving men's words not God's word. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

You pull out the Roman scripture (subjection to superior authorities) as proof that the org. is bad. You expect the annointed never to draw the wrong conclusion. You expect them to be either perfect, and sinless or led by holy spirit to the point where they do not have their own thoughts but are more like robots. 

The misuse of the Romans scripture WAS bad. Russell had it right in earlier days. So that 'new light' was obviously not guided by Holy Spirit.  The Anointed, Quote " You expect them to be either perfect, " So you argue with God if you wish.

Matthew 5 : 48

You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote or led by holy spirit ...  John 16 :7

 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you.

John 14 : 16

And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, ¹⁷  the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it.

But the ones you consider to be the Anointed, your GB, do not have this 'spirit of the truth'. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Then you pull out the CSA as proof that the org. is bad, again insinuating that every JW should be perfect and without sin. 

The CSA in such a large quantity and in so many countries in the JW Org, does prove that wickedness has developed and grown within the JW Org.  And the GB withholding the USA 25 + year database of Pedophile accusations proves wickedness. Add to this that the Charity Commission here in the UK are still saying that the UK branch of the JW org is still deliberately blocking progress in the CSA investigation.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Well I hate to break it to you again but that's not what the Bible says about Christians. Time and time again examples of faithful men and women who made mistakes were pointed out to you, but you ignore it...

Once agin if you wish to argue with God that is your chioce. And the big difference is between making mistakes and, deliberately being dishonest. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

Just how do opposers imagine they're obedient to Hebrews 13:17 as separate from any organization? (If they still imagine themselves to be Christian)

BUT, you have just mentioned that all so called Christian religions use this same idea.  So are you telling Catholics to to be obedient to the Pope ? How would you JWs get new recruits if everyone was obedient to the ones taking the lead in their religions ?  No one would listen to you because they would be being obedient to their vicar or priest etc.. .  

However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

"4Jah Creates more spiritual food"

I think you too make presumptions w/regard to the minds and motivations of "Ex-JW's". You probably barely know your own mind.

"He that is trusting in his heart is stupid" - Proverbs 28:26

 

Does an Elder really react this way   I think not. Just another AKA  for someone.  But i can tell you are badly hurt. You seem to write a lot about other people's mental state, I'll leave it there................ 

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

14 hours ago, xero said:

She'll say "If they didn't mean what they wrote, then why did they write what they wrote?". Quite bleedingly literal. It seems that w/people like this, the black and white is stark. When the organization says something these autistic types have like Rain-Man a memory on everything they've said "exactly what they said"

This comment is VERY SAD. Xero is using this persuasive idea that people that think in this way must have mental health problems. It is in fact just what the GB use to trick JWs. Remembering that the GB state that they ARE the F&DS, and that the GB state that GOD AND CHRIST TRUST THEM, then Xero wonders why the writings of that GB should be questioned. Those 8 men give themselves so much praise and give themselves  bold titles, but then they write lies and false predictions. So this lady and everyone else is right to say exactly those words

"If they didn't mean what they wrote, then why did they write what they wrote?" 

14 hours ago, xero said:

JWI - I'm trying to find a way to formulate, by way of illustration or otherwise (the shorter the explanation the better), the dividing line between conscience and scriptural responsibility and actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true and teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true.

You can and do have people in every organization JW/and non JW orgs who cross over the line either deifying conscience or deifying organization. Both of these are wrong and both of these may be done by individuals who are individually or collectively being "faithful" as they see what it means to be faithful.

This is fantastic, because this has some deep meaning.  

So, a person has their own conscience.....    But who decides on a person's 'scriptural responsibility' ?  Does that person use their own conscience to decide on their own scriptural responsibility ? OR, does a person rely on 'an Organisation' to tell the person what that person's scriptural responsibility is ? 

Next we have this idea of : actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true...  The GB are such an 'authority' and they give themselves this authority by stating that they are the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'.  The GB have thereby given themselves power and authority. So JWs are indeed actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true.  

So in this manner JWs are told what to believe. Now this gets even more serious when JWs are told to teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true. This is how lies snowball. Tell a lie often enough and people will begin to believe it. 

The next paragraph is equally interesting.  But unfortunately Xero doesn't make it clear between the words organisation and AN Organisation. 

Xero is stating here that it is wrong to defy organisation even if a person is being faithful.  However Xero does not say faithful to whom or to what. I presume xero means faithful to God.  In this case I'd say, be faithful to God and defy organisation if the need arises.

Things that are organised are not always right, and Organisations are not always right. but as Xero has mentioned, a person's conscience may not always be right.

However, for my part i will work WITH my conscience. If i am to be judged I want to be judged on working with my conscience. I would not want to be judged for blindly obeying a Human authority as mentioned above. 

14 hours ago, César Chávez said:

(2 Corinthians 5:9, 10) . . .. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

Nice to see this scripture. it proves it was written for the Anointed.   while in the body obviously means in the human body before they become spirit beings. 

On 3/23/2021 at 9:17 AM, César Chávez said:

Sorry to say Srecko, You, John and JWI are wrong with this opinion. The Watchtower DOES NOT, nor will it EVER, brainwash people.

Thank you for this joke, it is  sooooo funny  

On 3/23/2021 at 9:17 AM, César Chávez said:

The problem here, ex-witnesses "demand" the Watchtower should be accountable for our own personal actions.

The problem here is that CC is presuming he knows the minds or 'Ex JWs'.  BUT, when direct orders come down from the GB through the ranks, then the GB / Watchtower ARE responsible for JWs actions that follow those orders. 

For instance when the GB states that "The Anointed will not want to meet together or if the Anointed meet together IT WILL BE WORKING AGAINST GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT"...   Now that is directly from the GB, therefore the GB are responsible for the actions of the Anointed on this issue. 

Those 8 men cannot be the GOVERNING BODY ( the body which governs) without being held accountable for their direct orders and instructions. 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I also agree with Srecko, that to some extent we will probably accept some decisions made by a "collective" conscience that will be seem artificial to us.

It isn't a 'collective conscience', it is dictatorship by your GB down through the ranks. 

That was made very clear in the misuse of the Romans scripture years ago. 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And, of course, many of us have found the environment of the brotherhood of Witnesses to be perfectly suited to the needs of our conscience.

What this simply means is that JWs have found their comfort zone. They are happy because everyone in that 'zone' tells the same lies and is dishonest in the same ways. And they are all happy to serve the GB and the Org. It is similar to Catholics having their own comfort zone and all believeing their same lies.  It actually sends the conscience to sleep. That must surely have been proven by the amount of Child Sexual Abuse allowed to happen in the JW Org Earthwide. 

A person's conscience has to be that person's individual conscience.  And as @Srecko Sostar has said the other option is the Artificial conscience. But in reality the Artificial conscience is not a conscience, it is a person's life being controlled by other people. 

16 hours ago, xero said:

I prefer "rewards" over "consequences", but "rewards" indicates I've been informed by some external authority who will give me "as a reward" the thing I've decided I want in return for a given action or actions.

This is how the JW Org works for men. Rewards of Ministerial Servant or Elder for obeying the orders from the GB downward.

16 hours ago, xero said:

"Consequences" sound more threat-ish, and yet these are similar.

The JW Org also uses this and it is a threat to all those baptised into the Org. Small consequence = Reproved. Big consequence = D/fed..

16 hours ago, xero said:

Bringing it up to the 1st century, and the Christian Congregation we have many accounts which we can read to tell us that nothing was perfect then. (would we expect that today? why?)

You do realise of course that Christianity was NEW back then. Completely new. There had never been anything like it before. We are now 2000 years into Christianity. 

16 hours ago, xero said:

Why talk about organization?

Because organizations necessarily involve themselves w/the individual conscience at some level.

But the JW Org takes over people's consciences.  The GB makes rules, the congregants obey those rules.  JW congregants just become a number, just like 'boots on the ground'.  Reports put in to count numbers. Memorial attendance, to count numbers. 

16 hours ago, xero said:

But, if we refuse to be a part of organization, how can we expect to prosper? We never see Jehovah NOT use organization or recommend scripturally that someone should go it alone.

As for : if we refuse to be a part of organization, how can we expect to prosper?    That depends what you mean by prosper.  BUT A person can be part of organisation, with out of being part of AN Organisation.  I notice you did not say  We never see Jehovah NOT use AN organization. 

Quote - Could be like one brother said "He doesn't take counsel."     

This is an Elders way of saying that a person 'does not do as WE tell him'. They would say it about me when i didn't wear a jacket and tie to meetings. .

Quote  -  Will your conscience work right if it doesn't get recalibrated by scripture AND by others who admit to the same scriptures?

Will your conscience work right if you just follow orders coming down from Leaders that are NOT inspired of God's Holy Spirit. And others that are seeking rewards from men as mentioned earlier in the comment. 

15 hours ago, Anna said:

Everyone and all sorts.

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4)

 

You will note that the 'coming to an accurate knowledge of truth' is written after 'should be saved'.  So maybe the 'accurate knowledge will come later, after Armageddon for the Earthly class.  

But does anyone here on this Earth have accurate knowlendge right now ? Millions of people have Bibles. It's big business printing and selling them. But that hasn't brought about the 'accurate knowledge of truth'. 

But, this does not detract from the fact that, the Watchtower / Leaders, used a Greek manuscript, which one would presume they believed to be true, which included the word ME. Then those same Watchtower / Leaders decided to leave the word ME out of their translation. 

The question then arises, why did they use such a Greek manuscript ? IF, the Watchtower / Leaders say that their translation is 'spirit guided', why would they use a 'false' Greek manuscript ? 

However, from a personal viewpoint, i would never pray directly to Jesus. My prayers will always go to Almighty God through Christ.  I honestly don't know if it should be different fof the True Anointed ones that ARE the Body of Christ. 

In 'the world' each country will have an army.  The soldiers will be issued with guns. The guns are issued for the soldiers to use in battle.

In some countries the general public can obtain guns. Those guns are often used for wicked deeds. Some owners of guns have no self control and no knowledge of using a firearm for good intention. 

We can relate this to God's word, the Bible.  There was protest in the past that said everyone should have access to God's word. But we can see the results to everyone having access to guns. The results were not always good.

The Devil has made use of the Bible being freely available.  Thousands of different so called 'Christian' religions. Millions of individuals doing their own Bible study and putting their own interpretation on it. So, has this done more harm than good ? 

What if, only the truly Anointed ones, should have had God's words. But that in itself would have caused problems, because who would know which group of people had the right to 'own' God's word......  But even on this small forum, we can see how just a few people that possess a Bible, each have differing opinions.  

I do wonder exactly who God wants to have access to His written words. 

12 hours ago, xero said:

Why do we do that? It's not going to smell good the second time is it?

Because the 'something that smells bad' to you, is giving you a warning.  Then you, make choices as to how you deal with the warning. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't see ME in this interlinear

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh14.pdf

 

But it doesn't have the Greek for ME or for THIS in that Interlinear. 

Whereas the New World Translation Commitee, in the 1985 Edition says the Greek is 'in the original Greek' by Wescott and Hort -1881. And it includes both the words, ME and THIS. 

But the Watchtower / Leaders do not include either in the English rendering.  There must be something here relating to 'anyone adding to or taking from scripture'................... 

John 14 : 14   (Bible Hub)

New International Version
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

New Living Translation
Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

English Standard Version
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Berean Study Bible
If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

I have the 1985 Interlinear and the word ME is removed.  

On 3/21/2021 at 9:48 AM, xero said:

You really recycle your thoughts.

Wow and you said you;d blocked me.  

My 'thoughts' are consistent.