Patiently waiting for Truth

Why are you so concerned about JTR @César Chávez ?   Doesn't the scripture tell us all to deal with the rafter in our own eye before looking for straws in other people's eyes.  I would think that JTR was just and ordinary 'boots on the ground' JW, not a Leader of people. 

GB are a totally different thing because they call themselves God's spokesman.  The GB calls themselves and allow themselves to be called the Faithful and Discreet Slave. And the GB tell the True Anointed not to gather together. The GB tell the True Anointed that they would be working against God's Holy Spirit if they did gather together. 

Hence the GB deserve to be judged by anyone that is wanting to serve God properly.  Get things into perspective. James sinned and committed crime, he will pay for both. The GB have sinned and continue sinning and will be judged by God through Christ. But meanwhile, true servants of God need to distance themselves from the GB, unless they want to be judged along with the GB... 

@Witness It would need a new topic but I do wish you would explain exactly what you think Armageddon is.

Quote Armageddon takes place in the valley of decision – in the deep recesses of our heart. 

I presume (I know I should never  presume) that most of us here believe that Armageddon is the destruction of this 'world' and the setting up of a 'new world' here on this Earth. The 'world' only being the way of life on Earth not the planet.  So Armageddon removes the Devil and his demons, and removes all those humans judged as wicked.  Then those judged as 'worthy' will be carried through to the 'new world' / new way of life here on earth. 

But I don't think that is what you believe. I think I've read words from you that Armageddon is already in action ???  Are you saying it's in the mind / in the heart ? 

@Shirley Lowery  you are confusing Almighty God, with 8 men running a group of Organisations. 

I am not one of JWs, but i was one for long enough to know the lies and deceit and false predictions of your Leaders, from the 1960's onward. And I know enough about the Child Sexual Abuse / Pedophilia in the Watchtower / JW org / CCJW Earthwide, to know that God and Christ do not favour your organisations. 

You might take note that my questioning was not toward Almighty God. If you had bothered to read my original comment properly you would find that i have great faith in God through Christ. I was questioning those 8 men that control you. 

I think you need to do some research about your GB, they have in fact admitted that they are not inspired of God's Holy spirit. They admit that they get things wrong. 

And it seems quite funny, no sad actually, that you are putting your trust in such material things as buildings, Warwick and Ramapo. JWs seem to need material things and men to put their trust in.  And also strange that the GB say that 'we are in the last part of the final day of the end of this system' BUT you are looking forward to Ramapo being completed in 2026.

@TrueTomHarley What do you think Tom ?  Is there another 6 years to go ? Or are we in the final part of the final day of this old system of things ?  If the GB are spending your money on building another 'tower to the heavens' then they must think this old system is going to last for a long time yet. 

Sorry Shirley but I think you should do your own research into your GB and into it's organisations and real estate offices.  

I love God through Christ, not through your GB. 

Once again the 607 topic branches out into a side shoot.  @Anna and @Srecko Sostar  are talking about the 'instruction' or 'false instruction' from the Leaders of the Watchtower / JW Org. 

@Arauna has mentioned how things are going from bad to worse, and how governments will ban Christianity. 

So. what you have right now is an Organisation earthwide, governed / controlled, and directed by 8 men in America. They are an easy target for governments and opposition.

Whereas what I've suggested will be in place is the True Anointed Ones, living in different countries around the earth. God through Christ could easily communicate with the Anointed, via angels and Holy Spirit.  It would probably be easier for each country to hide it's own Anointed ones. 

God through Christ directed the apostle Paul separately to those Apostles in Jerusalem, giving Paul as much authority as the others.  We know this because it was Paul that wrote letters instructing the congregations. 

But going on what you have now, have your GB put any plans into action ?  It would seem most likely that Warwick and all other Bethels will be gone. Probably JW Org online will also be gone. So how do your GB intend to communicate ? After all it seems that none of you believe in miracles anymore. 

@Anna mentioned about 'obeying orders without question', but surely some kind of organised 'formation' would be involved. How will your American GB give instruction earthwide ? Or is the idea not to have any plans. Will they just go into total panic as the GB watch the Organsation fall ? 

No, I think God through Christ will have True Anointed Ones placed in different countries. And I think they will be in place well before the great tribulation begins. God is a god of order not disorder. 

Now if you have been kind enough to read my main comment above, please consider this.

From the GB as written in a Watchtower 

 Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of an exclusive club. They do not search out other anointed ones, hoping to discuss their anointing with them or to form private groups for Bible study. (Gal. 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did those things. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.

The GB say that the True Anointed would be 'working against the holy spirit,   What gives the GB the right to say such things ? 

Jesus said to His disciples, who were of the anointed,  (recorded at Matthew 18 v 19 & 20 )

Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. ²⁰  For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

How can these ones of the anointed 'agree' on anything if they do not communicate with each other ?

How can Jesus be in the midst of two or three of the anointed, if they do not gather together. 

So tell me, who is working against the Holy spirit ? 

The more I read the Greek scriptures, the more it is made clear to me that they are written for the True anointed Ones. 

Romans 1 v 7 to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones

1 Corinthians 1 v 2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones,

2 Corinthians 1 v 1  to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, including all the holy ones who are in all A·chaʹia:

Ephesians 1 v 1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are in Ephʹe·susa and are faithful in union with Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1 v 1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Phi·lipʹpi,a along with overseers and ministerial servants

Colossians 1 v 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother, to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·losʹsae

1 Thessalonians 1 v 1 Paul, Sil·vaʹnus,*a and Timothy,b to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1 v 1 Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy,a to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Note in Colossians 1 v 18, ( it is talking about Jesus and it says ) and he is the head of the body, the congregation.

It is saying that the congregation is the Body of Christ. The Anointed.

Verse 24 confirms this. .... in behalf of his body, which is the congregation.

Verse 27  confirms that this was written for the True Anointed ones. 

to whom God has been pleased to make known among the nations the glorious riches of this sacred secret, which is Christ in union with you, the hope of his glory.

Colossians 3 v 4 When the Christ, our life,e is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.

3 v 12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones

At Thessalonians 1 v 1 to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Note the congregation in union with God and Christ. ONLY the Anointed are IN UNION with God and Christ. 

The Congregation as referred to in the Greek Scriptures are the Anointed ones. 

The Holy Ones in the Greek Scriptures are the Anointed ones. 

Revelation 5 v 9 & 10 proves to us that Christ died for the Anointed ones.

“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue* and people and nation, ¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

God's nations was once physical, but now it is Spiritual Israel. God's Congregation is God's Holy Ones, God's True Anointed Ones. 

I see that no JW will answer this topic 

AS the '607' topic was going way off topic I thought it best to start a new one.

Jesus directed His followers to preach the 'Good News of the Kingdom'. JW's pretend to do this but....................

In the '607' topic there has been much debate (off topic) about true teachings or false teachings. Some JW's only believe some of the GB's teachings and just let other teachings go by.   Some of the JWs call this being a mature Christian.  Other folks call it being physically in / mentally out.  I would call it being physically in but spiritually out. 

BUT here's the rub. What does a JW do if they do not believe some teachings from the GB, but that same JW has to teach those teachings to others. ? 

This happens in many ways.

It would happen on the door to door work by distributing magazines promoting those false teachings.

It would happen on the Cart / Trolly work by encouraging members of the public to take books and magazines promoting those false teachings.

It would happen in a study, that pretends to be a Bible Study, for a newly interested one. I say pretends, because it is really a study of a book written by the GB's writing department. The book would be promoting the false teachings and the JW would be encouraging the interested person to believe those false teachings.

It would happen by inviting an interested person to a Meeting where the false teachings are preached from the platform.

It could be happening if a JW is posting out magazines to address given them by their Elders.

And all this encouraged by JWs that do not believe those false teachings themselves.

Hypocrisy ? I think so. But obviously JW's see it as being a mature Christian.  Do any of you JW's here promote false teachings ?

Do you promote teachings that you yourself do not believe ? 

( It was a secondary reason for me to leave the JW Org. My Christian conscience would not allow me to teach lies to innocent people ).

OUR YEARTEXT FOR 2020: “Go, therefore, and make disciples . . . , baptizing them.”—MATT. 28:19.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2020/go-therefore-and-make-disciples/

3. Jesus said: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, . . . teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.”

True to Jesus’ words, today the disciple-making work is in full swing. Think of it! Nearly 300,000 people each year get baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses and become disciples of Jesus Christ!

²¹ During 2020, our yeartext will help us to focus on improving the quality of our disciple-making work. It features some of the words Jesus spoke during that momentous meeting on a mountain in Galilee: “Go, therefore, and make disciples . . . , baptizing them.”—Matt. 28:19.

What a complete insult to Almighty God and Jesus Christ. Why ? Because of chopping out half of the True Scripture to suit their own greedy selfish purposes. Read above, they "get baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses " 

Matthew 28 v 18 - 20 

 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. ¹⁹  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ²⁰  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Anyone that cannot see the difference between the two baptisms must be deliberately blind.

And, I have also noticed that only the NWT writers have chosen to write Holy Spirit with lower case first letters. Other translations give those words proper respect.  Just three examples. 

Berean Study Bible
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
New American Standard Bible
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
New King James Version
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Choose for yourself whom you will serve, either serve the GB/Watchtower/JW Org, or, serve Almighty God through Jesus Christ. 

Do you think this 'world' will still be running in 2040 ?  I hope God has intervened before then.

Quote @Anna 

I don't see how being baptised and living your life as if Armageddon will come in your lifetime is a bad thing. Didn't Jesus say we should become his followers  and disown ourselves?

"Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me" Matt 16:24.    

Whatever I write Anna will twist it. Unfortunately she is a dishonest person, but at this moment in time all JWs have to be dishonest, or they would all leave the Watchtower Soc / CCJW. 

My points were that the Watchtower / GB / CCJW say, "You have to be a baptised JW to be saved" and they threaten that Armageddon WILL come in your lifetime.  But dishonest Anna twists what I've written. 

Yes Anna we should follow JESUS CHRIST.  But that does not mean being a baptised JW and it does not mean that Armageddon will come in our lifetime. 

But you keep worshipping and serving your GB and it's Organisations (plural) of which it now has many. 

Jesus didn't even have a place to lay his head, but your GB & Co have so much real estate and so many different organisations and probably so much hidden money too.  

The complete opposite to Jesus Christ.  Let's remind ourselves of that scripture you used. 

"Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me" Matt 16:24.    

Jesus also told a rich man to sell everything he owned and give the money to the poor.  The GB won't even pay compensation to Victims of Child sexual Abuse in the organisation.  

Quote @Srecko Sostar So, the meaning of the concept and the interpretation of words; "Be awake, be on watch", needs to be changed. And JW's need another/different "Watchman".

I truly believe that different 'Watchman' will be the True Anointed remnant'   The spiritual JEW that the 'ten men' cling on to, saying 'We will go with you because we know god is with you'.  Zechariah 8 : 23

This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

Quote @Anna Of course I do not think mistakes are from God or Jesus. But they obviously allowed them.

God and Christ allow all false religions to do as they please right now, and have done so in the past.  So why do you think the 'mistakes' of the Watchtower / JWs is any different ?  

Quote @Anna By whatever misguided means this state of anticipation was achieved throughout decades by the organization is not the question here. The fact is it was achieved and still is being achieved. No one can accuse the JWs of not being "on the watch". 

No, what was achieved and is still achieved is FEAR.  FEAR of being disfellowshipped, cast out, losing all,

Remember the lie, 'You must be a baptised JW to be saved'  Then add to that another lie,  'Armageddon is 'definitely coming in your life time'.  What result do you get ? You get people having to carry a heavy load and living in fear of being disfellowshipped.  

The Org used to say that is was the Ark, and if you are not in the Ark you will die.  Threat after threat after threat. Scaremongering. And you call it 'Keeping on the watch'. 

@Space Merchant becomes a JW at heart.  He uses the JW way of 'lumping all non JWs together'

Shame on you SM, I thought you were better than that. 

I could put it in capital letters for you I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE GB OR THE ORG  STATED THE END WOULD BE IN 1975.  I do hope that is clear enough for you. 

Now you said  you responded to the remark about 1975, 

I think a whole list of us responded to remarks about 1975.  BUT I never made any statement that the GB / Org said 1975 would be Armageddon..

However we do ALL know things that the Leaders of the JWs said in the mid to late 60's and possibly early 70's. 

SM, the simple question is, Do you think the Bible Students / JWs / Watchtower Soc' / CCJW  have made continuous false predictions from Russell onwards ? 

I think it has been proven beyond doubt that the Leaders from Russell onward have not served God, but have raced ahead, trying to be clever, trying to run ahead of God and Christ, and in as much as saying 'The Master is delaying'.  

If they are not saying such then why are they running ahead ?  Neither God nor Christ wants representatives that make false statements, tells deliberate lies and loads heavy burdens onto the shoulders of true Christians. 

The Israelites had to be content with mana in the wilderness. So it should be for God's servants now.  The spiritual food from the Anointed to the earthly class should be just basic.  Meetings could be giving praise to God, not expecting some wonderful special dish to be served up.  Look at what happened when those Israelites demanded more.  

Were the Leaders of the Watchtower / JWs frightened that they would loose their power, loose congregants, loose donations ???   And the GB have learnt nothing from the past mistakes. Nothing. 

@Anna says They (God and Christ) are doing that; through the scriptures.

No Anna, your GB and it's Org are the ones doing it by misusing scripture. 

Do you honestly think God and Christ would deliberately mislead millions of people that want to serve them ? 

Do you really think Almighty God through Jesus Christ, gave all those lies to Russell,  Rutherford, and other Leaders of the Watchtower society ? 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, I think that's the idea.

And you think that God, through Christ, needs to do that ?   Then I think you insult both Almighty God and Jesus Christ.

But in truth you know it is done purely for power and money. 

A couple of more points I'd like cleared up if possible. 

There seems to be a Religious Order of Jehovah's Witnesses which is not the CCJW and not the Watchtower Society. ????

And, it seems the CCJW may only be registered in the USA ???

And possibly the International Bible Students Association might be the JW's of the UK ???

^{Matthew 24 v 4 through 8.} 

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.  You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.  Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.  All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Jesus emphasized 'see to it that you are not alarmed' and that 'the end is still to come'  or, IS NOT YET. 

Also most translation read as beginning of birth pains. But NWT reads as  beginning of pangs of distress. A big difference in giving birth, as opposed to, having pangs of distress.  

Quote @Srecko Sostar  But, on the other hand, it is a fairly successful method of keeping people in a state of anticipation. 

If you couple these fake 'signs' with the threat from the GB / CCJW that one has to be a Baptised JW to be saved, then this constant threat of Armageddon from the GB and CCJW / Watchtower, gets more people Baptised into the Org and therefore brings in more money.  

It seems that members of the Governing Body resigned from the board of the Watchtower Society in that year 2000. 

The same year that the CCJW was established. 

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

We have been known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses since 1935 and have brought glory to Jehovah's name since then - preaching and carrying His name throughout the world.  Our worship is legalized by jehovah.... not men.

The JW name was used form 1931 but they were still part of the Watchtower Society. 

So it seems the separation only came in the year 2000. 

But the CSA database was set up by the Watchtower Society in 1997. 

I thought I'd start this as a new topic. 

It seems that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses was not established until 21st August 2000.

So what was the Jehovah's Witnesses 'organisation' before that date ?  

@César Chávez  you prove nothing. All you do is insult people.  Love your enemies and have peace. 

@Srecko Sostar Thank you for the links / downloads. That has opened my eyes (given me new information).

But it now gets more confusing to me. So what was the CCJW before it was the CCJW ? 

I thought JW Org was just the website side of the organisation. 

And I thought that the Watchtower was the 'business' side including the printing works. 

The whole lot of them, including the Governing Body, are very devious and will be judged by God through Christ.  But in the meantime the Child Sexual Abuse will continue and Elders and Ministerial Servants will continue to get away with it. 

My prayers to God to bring in a True Anointed or for God to start a new organsation before the Judgement arrives.  

@César Chávez Every comment you give shows more and more your lack of confidence.  You lack confidence in your GB, your CCJW Org and yourself.  You prove your lack of confidence by continuing to try to insult me and by the way you jump from one subject to another, then another. 

You last comment was about JTR and Alan Smith, now you are burbling about 'gay union' and war.   None of which relates to this topic at all.  But i will relate to one of your previous comments, a scripture.  From Matthew 7 

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Now that scripture can easily relate to your GB and the other leaders/helpers in the CCJW / Watchtower. 

Your Leaders show up the faults in other religions, but hide the faults in their own Organisation.  It's fact, live with it or leave the Org. 

@César Chávez asks me,  "When did the Watchtower GB "ever" judge you, personally as you have personally judged them?"

The answer is quite simple but you don't really want an answer.  The GB do not need to judge me as i have no effect on their lives.  I do need to judge the GB, just as you yourself have judged them, because it affects our lives.  But my judging them goes further because the GB affect the lives of all JWs and all people that might wish to join the CCJW org'.  So my Christian conscience tells me to warn others of the danger from the GB and the CCJW Org. 

JWs judge the Catholic religion and it's Pope. JWs judge the Muslim religion and all other religions. The GB and Watchtower judge all other religions. You yourself judge other religions and you judge governments. That can be seen by your earlier comments.  For instance, you offered this challenge "Now show me a religious group that "hasn't" fallen in Satan's world? Show me a list of "all" the government institutions that are perfect."  By this comment you are seen to be judging other religions and governments.

I have found scripture to be relative. For instance Matthew 7

1. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

That sounds good, because I judge others by God's word in scripture.  And I expect to be judged by God's word too. 

I do agree with you about life choices.  Hence i left the CCJW Org. Why would i want to remain part of such an immoral organisation. But i knew I would be shunned by over 120 people from the local congregation and i knew i would be falsely accused of wrongdoing and accused of being disfellowshipped. 

As for the outcome of JTR, i had no idea. I didn't follow the court case. JTR is just one man. He wasn't the Leader of 8.5 million people and i don't think he was trying to start his own religion.  He was neither a friend nor an enemy of mine, he was just another member of this forum...  But in this case it does prove your point about life choices.

And as for my own sins, I do tell everyone that i don't expect to be in that 'New World'. By that viewpoint i leave it to God through Christ to judge me. 

@César Chávez  you are burbling.  You ramble on about my words being empty, and then you start going on about JTR and Allen smith, and 'proper authorities being informed'. Everything you say there is totally off topic and does not relate to anything we have spoken about. 

Yes if it has been proven, then JTR messed up his own life, and must pay the price both legally and spiritually. 

As for Allen Smith he was before my time on here and I know nothing about him. 

I agree that God through Christ will judge us all. I'm not expecting to be in the 'New World'.

However Romans 9 v 14, 15 & 16 tells us, 

¹⁴  What are we to say, then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not! ¹⁵  For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.” ¹⁶  So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy. 

So no matter what we think of each other, it is Almighty God through Jesus Christ that judges us as individuals when judgement day arrives. 

But for now, each of us has to judge the GB and the CCJW Organisation for ourselves. You judge them to be good. I judge them to be bad. We have to judge them to be able to make a decision about what we should do in our own lives.  You have judged them to be serving God properly therefore you follow them. I have judged them to be turning their back on God and Christ and therefore I have left them.  

However you have judged me "as a prosecutor of Gods people and his faithful servants, regardless if you accept it or not." And you tell me "You are only condemning yourself!!" 

So, you make judgement of me. That is of course your choice. But you are judging me by the standards of the GB and the CCJW. You are not judging me by God's written word. No where in God's word does in mention the GB or the CCJW as being God's people. Please remember the scriptures say, 'by their works you will know them'. And I have judged the GB and the CCJW Org' by Bible principles and by Jesus' words.  

These words by @César Chávez 

By your misinterpretation and nonsense, Of course. Now show me a religious group that "hasn't" fallen in Satan's world? Show me a list of "all" the government institutions that are perfect. 

So, is Ce'sar judging the CCJW by worldly standards. Is he say the CCJW is better than all the rest?

DID GOD judge the Nation Of Israel by the condition of the rest of the world ? NO. 

GOD judged the Nation Of Israel by HIS OWN standards. And so it shall be. GOD through Christ will judge the GB and the CCJW by GOD'S STANDARDS not by the fallen standards of the rest of the world.