Patiently waiting for Truth

23 minutes ago, Anna said:

It doesn't really matter does it? Are we to ignore good principles and advice just because they were not directly written to us? These are arrangements which help run things in an organized way in a congregation. Besides, most congregations do not have anyone who is annointed. It is logical that the principles that were  written down were originally only applied by the annointed, why, because everyone was annointed! That is not the case anymore, but the principles regarding  taking care of a congregation remain the same don't they? Or are you suggesting there should be no organanized way of doing things?

I'll have to break your comment down here.

Quote These are arrangements which help run things in an organized way in a congregation.

Organised yes. Through the Elders, fair and honest and showing love, no. The elders are not guided by God's Holy Spirit.

Quote because everyone was annointed!

Were they ? Jesus said, recorded at John 10 v 16

  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

Actually the Greek says 'other sheep i am having'. But was Jesus saying that he already had other sheep ?

I think there are other scriptures which could lead one to believe that not all of those followers of Christ were anointed ones. 

Quote Or are you suggesting there should be no organanized way of doing things?

I'm suggesting that an Earthwide organisation that is trying to serve Almighty God properly, through Christ, should be run by the True Anointed from around the Earth. That True Anointed would be Inspired by God's Holy Spirit. They would be from different countries from different tribes and tongues. 

To add to this point the scripture from Revelation 5 v 9 & 10

And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, ¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Jesus bought the True Anointed with His blood, and those True Anointed are from every tribe and tongue and people and nation'. Therefore the remnant of them should be running the True Organisation that is trying to serve Almighty God properly. 

But the GB tell those of the True Anointed, not to gather together, and even worse, the GB tell those True Anointed that they would be 'working against the holy spirit' if they did gather together. 

So now you decide @Anna. Does it really matter ?  What does your Christian conscience tell you ? 

I am wondering if @TrueTomHarley is slyly suggesting that Paedophiles within the CCJW that did their awful deeds in the past, should be let off. And is he also suggesting therefore that the 20 + year database of Child Sexual Abuse concerning the American part of  the CCJW, should be discarded ?

I too would not have posted the arrest report about JTR. I have no idea what the outcome was but as I've said I hope he gets treated fairly and honestly by the Superior Authorities.  I do wonder about his position within the CCJW now, but it's not my business. 

Tom's last paragraph above does not take into account the Victims that suffered the abuse. As I've said before the Victims get treated as 'Collateral damage'.  It seems that Tom is saying that if a person commits Child Sexual Abuse and does not get reported or found out for twenty years, then the accused should just be let off. No feeling for the victims.  I can understand why people have said that the CCJW is a Paedophiles paradise. Paedophiles are kept hidden within the CCJW for many years. It is only the last 5 years that so many investigations have taken place Earthwide into all religions, that all this information has now come to light. Surely ALL Paedophiles should pay the price for their Crimes ?  

I still bring up the point though, if the Australian Bethel had 50 years worth of records regarding CSA, then why does the USA only have 20 years worth of information ? 

This story did bring tears to my eyes. 

https://www.stabroeknews.com/2020/08/21/news/regional/jamaica/jamaican-woman-loses-seven-of-eight-sons/

 Latisha greeted the news team with a welcoming smile when THE WEEKEND STAR visited her at her Corporate Area home. However, behind that smile is anguish and pain.

Not only is she mourning the death of her son who passed away from cancer last Wednesday, but she lives with the burden of losing six other boys, all tragically.

She said that it is her faith that has kept her going. “I am not yet baptised but it is my Jehovah Witness’ faith that keeps me going,” Latisha said. “I cry a lot for them because they are my children and I love them. I am still grateful that Jehovah kept me alive. People always say that I am very strong to endure all of this, but trust me, I am not the one doing it, it’s Jehovah.”

Latisha is suffering from occasional memory loss, and had to seek the assistance of her only remaining son to give the names of all her deceased children. She exhaled deeply as she recalled her sons’ deaths.

Dave, who was 15 when he died, drowned in 1985 after he was allegedly pushed into the water by someone with whom he went out to sea.

A few years later, her second boy Tony was killed at his gate by gunmen.

His murder was followed by the disappearance of Ray and Leroy, who were both shot in the 2000s, but their bodies were never recovered for burial.

The tears were still flowing when another son, Maurice, was killed.

And then in 2018, Al succumbed to injuries he received in an explosion at work.

Now, Wayne, her eldest son, has succumbed to cancer.

Her only living son listened as she shared the stories. He said that although he has two sisters, he badly misses his brothers and often wonders if he is next. “Mi worry about it sometimes and the thought of death crossed my mind a lot because it is like my family is marked for death,” he said. “I tend to brush it from my mind every time the thought comes across because I have three children to live for.”

Latisha says this son is now left with the burden of burying Wayne, who had no savings. She said she is also financially challenged, as her only earnings come from recycling plastic bottles. “I can’t even buy a shirt to bury him, much less a pants. I don’t know how I am going to bury him. I really can’t afford it,” she said.

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I presume this is a true story and I hope she receives help from her Congregation. 

“What we have here is a failure to communicate,”  Wasn't that in a film about murdering the Native Americans ? 

And I think I remember @TrueTomHarley  saying something like 'it's not wise to reveal everything'  

And @Anna I will agree with @Witness  that the scriptures you partially quoted are for the Anointed, not for the Earthly ones.  In fact, as I've said before, I believe the Greek scriptures are for the True Anointed only, although we 'earthlings' can of course understand some scripture and it helps with our daily lives and conduct. 

As for @Thinking, well they come across as saying ' I don't want to be reading this, but i am reading this, but it shouldn't be written here'.   Sorry Thinking, I find you quite funny.  Are you trying to justify the fact that you are here and reading it all, just like the rest of us. ? 

We are all sinners. We all have good and bad thoughts. Most likely we all do good and bad things. 'Let him who is still standing beware he does not fall' 

I would kindly suggest that JWs stop thinking that they are 'better people' than non-JWs. 

From Tom.  Proverbs 11:13:

“a slanderer goes about revealing confidential talk,But the trustworthy person keeps a confidence,”

Is this what the GB use as an excuse for hiding paedophiles in the CCJW ? 

So was the Apostle a slanderer ? 1 Corrinthians 5 v 1 & 2

Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. ²  And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst?

The Apostle Paul revealed the truth of the situation, just as we all should. 

Once again C. C. you make no sense.  You are like TTH, you both talk in riddles. 

If you have an outright accusation to make and if you can back it up with proof then lets see it. 

As for anyone threatening the GB, well you could accuse God or Christ of doing so. The GB have been and still are a stumbling block for many people. So this scripture applies to them. 

Luke 17 v 1 &2

Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! ²  It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.

C.C. you make no sense at all.  JWs don't 'go to Almighty God through Jesus Christ'. 

JWs go through the CCJW organisation.  JWs follow their GB by obeying instruction from those men. 

20 hours ago, Anna said:

I'm glad.

The Police have wasted no time in contacting me. The IICSA must have contacted the Police immediately and the Police emailed me today, and i have just replied to them.  The Police wanted all the same information and more besides.  I actually found it quite easy to deal in facts, and not get emotional about knowing the people involved. What I did find a bit difficult is when they asked questions which i didn't have true answers to, because i didn't want to 'guess' the answers.  I made sure to state that certain things were only 'my own opinion'.  It would be nice to hear a result but i doubt i will. 

I never known a JW to be so political and anti one country as @Arauna is. It certainly is not being neutral. Oh dear. 

Quote C. C. " The only confusion I see comes from those that can't separate themselves by combining church and state. A worldly view to be sure. "

That's so funny. The confusion I can see is in the GB / CCJW / JWs that cannot separate God and Christ from the CCJW / Watchtower.  Confused JWs think that their GB is the gateway to God. Whereas Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me".  Confused JWs have replaced Jesus with the GB. 

@Anna  Sorry but i have to pick you up on this point >

Quote "It must be stressed though that NOW it is clearly in writing that sins are handled by the congregation,..."

Nothing is handled by the Congregation.  It is all handled by the Elders and Circuit Overseers etc. The congregation are told nothing. Unlike in scripture when it says 'take it to the congregation. 

9 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Question for the Librarian, TTH, JWI: Why am I the only one to lose the likes and dislike submission in my post in this forum?

Is it a fault on your own computer ?  I wouldn't think you would lose it intentionally. If anyone was to lose it I would think it would be me. Hope it returns for you soon.  I think this is a new page setup as of today.

@Arauna  Your last comment is very political and not neutral at all   I don't think that is just 'Keeping on the watch'.

C.C. You can either use God's written word, or you can use the Watchtower, but you cannot use both as they contradict one another. Unless, as it seems, you like to be confused. 

Thinking seems not to be thinking. And if they are sooooo very upset and disgusted then why are they even commenting or reading it ?

None of us have judged James and I don't think any of us will.  But in some ways things have been put into perspective here. ......................

@Anna  I think the ARC case you quoted must be where I got that information from, Thank you.

However he did say, at first, that he would not report murder. 

" THE CHAIR:   Q.   If a different crime, to take the most  extreme, murder.  If you were told that a member of the congregation had killed someone else, would you report that  to the police? 

 A.   We would encourage the person to do that. 

 Q.   Would you do it yourself? 

 A.   No.  I would try very hard not to - not that I would  try very hard not to, but I would encourage the person continually to do that.  That's a decision they need to make. "

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It is my opinion that when a person is put on the spot like that, then what they first say is the truth from their standpoint. In my opinion, he meant, he would not report it. 

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20 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:  the Two Witness Rule could well have been used as an excuse to disbelieve the child

Quote @Anna " I think using the word excuse is unfair since no one wants to see a child harmed. "

This is where I use the expression ' Collateral Damage '.  The child would be 'pushed to one side' for the sake of retaining the Elder in his position.  And if you add the 'good buddy' / 'nice guy' syndrome to it, it would be very likely to happen. 

What i find funny is that JWs on here keep saying that the Elders and the GB are just ordinary humans like anyone else, but when i point out the things that ordinary humans do then it seems the JWs suddenly think that the Elders and the GB are not just ordinary humans. 

 

@TrueTomHarley  The problem of the 20 + year database in America that the GB or their Lawyers are keeping hidden still exists. Unless I am behind the time and the GB have already handed it over to the Superior Authorities. 

Quote "No offense, but isn’t this a first for you?"  I don't know if i have judged individuals of the CCJW of any sexual offence. I have judged the GB as a 'body' and i have uploaded info' from news articles. I have also said that ALL paedophiles are 'sex beasts', because of the damage they do emotionally to children and maybe physically too. 

As for JTR, it seems he is charged with pornography.  As I've no idea exactly what was involved and it is none of my business, then I do not judge him personally. 

Now the viewing of such pornography does not harm the child, but how was the pornography constructed. It could be that 'innocent' photographs were used and photoshopped to pretend that sexual abuse was taking place. Or it could be that sexual abuse was actually taking place. If a person was to be paying / buying such images or film, then it would be encouraging perverts to continue making such images or film.  In my opinion therefore if a person buys pornography it is promoting pornography being made.  But if the pornography is freely available online, although still not good, it is not being directly promoted. 

Quote "I think Anna raises a good point—if it is someone you know, and thus can see as more than one-dimensional "

I answered Anna on this by tagging her in a different topic, as It seemed to be totally off topic from here. Unfortunately I don't know how to link topics or comments.  My answer to Anna was that I have been in contact with the IICSA, here in UK, about a situation concerning people I do 'know', and they are passing the information over to the Police. In truth do we actually 'know' anyone ? We think we know people. 

Quote "This is a ridiculous statement. All it means is that there is sometimes not enough evidence upon which to take action. Why don’t you suspend evidence altogether? If anyone is accused of anything, off to jail they go."

Tom, you have linked two things here.  You have linked the Elders decisions, with the Police / Courts decisions.  It seems that secular authorities can work from different 'evidence' than the Elders work on. If you link this with what else @Anna was saying about "Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". Now if the Elders have to judge a child's words against a 'fellow Elder', when they think the 'fellow Elder' is a 'really nice guy', then the Two Witness Rule could well have been used as an excuse to disbelieve the child. But the Police and the Courts are not emotionally involved like the Elders are. So the Police and Courts can take a neutral perspective. 

Quote: The problem of a “culture of insularity” has been solved. 

insularity

@Srecko Sostar  Is it my imagination or is there evidence that one Elder said that he would not go to the authorities even if a brother confessed to murder. 

I find it funny that @Anna says " A sin can be forgiven by the congregation, " because the congregation are not given an option. The GB / organisation /  Elders make the decisions and the congregation is told what to do. Even though the scripture tell us at Matthew 18 v 17 

 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. ¹⁷  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

But the CCJW do not follow scripture. Everything is kept hidden from the congregation. So how can Anna say that " A sin can be forgiven by the congregation, " when the congregation have no information. 

@Outta Here Wow, some of those books brought back some memories. The 'Impossible for God to lie ' book, from the 60's, and the 'Lamp' book. It's kinda funny but also kinda sad to see them for sale like that. I kept lots of mine for many years and they moved with me from one place to another. I had two big boxes full of study books and magazines. I may still have them somewhere buried in one of my sheds.

I have got some very large vintage Bibles from the 1700's which i will be selling soon.  I was going to use them for cross referencing but they are too big and too fragile. I bought them from an auction as I don't like to see old Bibles thrown away, but they are not practical for me to use. 

As for 'freeloading', I think most people back in the 60's and 70's were very generous with their donations to the organisation. I have no proof of that but it's just a feeling i have. 

As I'm in UK some things will not open. This is one of the things that will not open and i could not copy. I took photo of it 

Is this a common thing now, selling JW info ? 

@TrueTomHarley Why do you talk in riddles ? 

NWT 

³  Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same.

International Standard Version
Be tolerant of one another and forgive each other if anyone has a complaint against another. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, you also should forgive.

New King James Version
bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And be forbearing one to another and forgiving one another. But if anyone has an outrage against his neighbor, forgive just as The Messiah has forgiven you,

Webster's Bible Translation
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man hath a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Young's Literal Translation
forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you -- so also ye;

I thought this was an interesting point Κύριος translates to Lord. But it seems only the CCJW / Watchtower translate that to Jehovah. 

So, should that scripture be Christ or Almighty God ? 

@Anna I think enough facts have been proven Earthwide against the GB and the CCJW / Watchtower. 

The Two Witness Rule was used as an excuse not to believe Children when they reported CSA to parents and / or Elders. 

I haven't judged JTR and I won't, but everyone has to keep an open mind about everyone else. There are no 'really nice guys or gals'. We are all sinners. Hence I trust no one. The scripture is "Continue putting up with one another.. "  but it doesn't say trust. 

Quote Anna (regarding the Two Witness Rule ) "Not just CSA, but any accusation, to do with anything." 

As I understand it, Brothers and Sisters that have spent the night in the same building together have been accused of sexual misconduct BUT without any witnesses.. I'm sure there was a topic on that. 

All off topic and i hope JTR gets judged fairly and honestly. 

@derek1956 But you just blindly serve your GB through the CCJW organisation. The so called 'truth' in the Org' changes every year. Some 'truth' is no longer 'truth' and then they say they have 'new light' with 'new truth'. That is not progression. It is not building upon a foundation. God and Christ DO NOT LIE. So why does you Org; teach lies. You need to remember that I've known the JW organisation since the 1960's and I've seen the lies and false teachings written and them removed later. Books written and used as study books, then those books suddenly removed because of the false teachings. Stumbling blocks for many.... Your Governing Body are not inspired by God's Holy Spirit. They have only recently admitted that. But they still insist that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. 

As for your thoughtless comment. We do have it in writing from Almighty God. We have the Holy Scriptures. 

@Anna @Anna Your comment of 13 hours ago was talking about CSA ( it wasn't about JTR ) and you said because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  But the CCJW have always demanded two witnesses to CSA, which of course was not possible, and that is why they dismisses so many cases as lies. By dismissing so many cases it makes it look as if there was less CSA in the CCJW than there really was. 

You also subtly brought out the point of the buddy buddy situation amongst Elders, protecting each other. 

Quote " It's easy for us to judge elders for mishandling matters and say why didn't they do this or that. Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". 

As for this next bit I don't really understand. Quote :

I suppose this can be a lesson for all of us, especially the likes of John Butler 

What lesson does this teach anyone and why John Butler ?  Thank you.

Having been in contact with the IICSA they requested information about a situation that I made them aware of.  So I have forwarded the information with my contact details, which it seems they will forward to the Police. 

@Anna had made a comment on another topic about what would we do if we knew the person or persons in question. Here is my answer. I did what should be done. Children need to be protected as much as we are able. Nobody should be hiding paedophiles and nobody should be walking away from their responsibility to report anything suspicious that could result in harm to a child or adult.  Here is the letter that I answered. (highlighting mine)

Our reference: IICSA-xxxxxx 

Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

Thank you for contacting the Inquiry via email on 13 August 2020 and bringing to our attention your concerns about the abuse of a young child.  

We would still strongly encourage you to contact your local police force directly, or the NSPCC helpline on 0808 800 5000 if you believe that there is an ongoing current risk to any child or vulnerable person www.nspcc.org.uk

As you may be aware, the Inquiry has a legal duty to pass on any allegations of child abuse to Operation Hydrant, which is a national policing team set up to coordinate the police response to non-recent child sexual abuse. Because of our legal duty, we need to pass some of the information you provided to Operation Hydrant. 

We can send information to Operation Hydrant anonymously, however, we would like to ask for your consent to pass your name and contact details to the police along with the allegations. This would allow the police to make contact with you if they deemed it necessary to gain further information about the allegations. 

If you do consent to us including your name and contact details, please respond to this email by 21 August 2020 and advise what your preferred method of contact would be (e.g. phone, email etc). Please be aware that we cannot guarantee which police force (if any) will make contact with you or they will use your preferred contact method. 

The attached leaflet “Passing Information To The Police” explains consent and how the police may use your information in more detail. 

Support

You mention in your email that you are looking for Jehovah's Witnesses UK Sexual Abuse Helpline, unfortunately we are not aware of any such helpline.

Whilst there are no support organisations that are directly attached to the Inquiry, we are able to signpost people to trusted ones that provide specialist therapeutic support and information to victims and survivors of child sexual abuse. While the Inquiry cannot endorse individual organisations, it recognises that those organisations are recognised for the services they offer. 

If you feel that you might benefit from some support you may be interested in some organisations who provide specialist advice and therapeutic support specifically for victims and survivors of child sexual abuse at this link.  Although some of these organisations may currently be offering reduced services due to the COVID-19 crisis, the vast majority of them are still offering therapeutic support and advice. It may also be beneficial to talk to your GP so that they can signpost you to some appropriate local support. 

Truth Project

Please do remember that there is a part of the Inquiry which enables victims and survivors of child sexual abuse to share their experiences with us - you can find more information at the Truth Project website. 

Finally we would like to make sure that you are aware of an investigation that the Inquiry is carrying out into current child protection policies, practices and procedures in religious institutions that have a significant presence in England and Wales.  This investigation includes the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  You can find out more about this investigation on our website and you can find details of the public hearings relating to this investigation here. 

Thank you again for contacting us. If you have any questions regarding the work of the Truth Project, or the Inquiry in general, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely

Jodie Yarborough

Head of Correspondence & Engagement Team

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse 

We are going off topic here but :-

To quote @Anna because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  I love it when someone says this. It blows the Two Witness Rule clean out of the water. 

Quote Anna.  "Now imagine there is no proof. Just an accusation, and not against a person on a forum (whom we don't really know) but against someone we know personally, someone who is a "really nice guy".....now try and handle that."

Well you've heard me say that i don't trust anyone. By that I mean any human. 

I would like to comment more on this but i think it should be a separate topic due to circumstances. 

JTR can still make his peace with Almighty God through Christ. 

Is it true that North Korea are killing pet dogs and eating them as they are starving due to flooding of their crops ?

And is it true that somewhere, I think it is India, they have said that their people will not be able to buy, sell or work if they don't have some kind of paperwork or card ? 

Things 'flash up' on my Facebook and i read them, but when i go back to find them they seem to be gone.