Patiently waiting for Truth

19 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You have 20+ years of leaked BOE letters that will contradict this false claim, yet you have no problem keeping a fornicator in the Org in another thread. Wow! 😉

However, according to you singling out one religion, that would mean you live in a pedophile world, since society is included, within that evil deed.

What is your first language ? Probably not English unless you were drunk when you wrote the above. None of it makes any sense.

A. I don't have 20 years of any letters. B. I am not keeping a fornicator in the Org. 

C. This FORUM is about Jehovah's Witnesses, Hence I speak about THEM. Why would i want to talk about the Catholic Church, or any other, on a JW forum ? 

D. Everyone lives in the world, and you could therefore say that everyone lives in a 'paedophile world' as it is part of the world we all live in. 

Jesus said  (recorded at John 17 v 15 )  ( New American Standard Bible ) 
"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

So you see, we are all in this world. But your GB are still withholding evidence about Paedophiles in the CCJW. So, your GB are guilty of great sins against God, Christ and humans. 

@César Chávez Well the GB and their Lawyers are keeping the paedophiles inside the CCJW / Watchtower by hiding that 20 + year database, so they are not cleaning the Org at all. How you can spout about What is the point of keeping Christian ethics, when the CCJW Org is so immoral i do not know. 

Wake up CC. Your Org is being part of this world right now. Your CCJW Org is better known for Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide than for anything else. Earthwide Child Sexual Abuse CC, just remember that when you spout about Christian ethics.  

@JW Insider Only if they (the GB men )  were inspired of Holy Spirit, which they say they are not. 

I think that @JW Insider has proven that the Watchtower is run by MEN. Remembering that Russell started the Watchtower in 1879.

Remember all the different dates for Christ's return / Armageddon. All the false prophecies / predictions. And it continues right now with the GB and the 'final part of the final day of the final week of the final ....... '  Oh dear, what scaremongering continues. 

@Arauna I notice that you did not answer the question, you dodged around it . JWs are known for dodging around straight forward questions. 

So the Question still stands. From a JW perspective, Will God, through Christ, only look at the hearts of Jehovah's Witnesses, but condemn everyone who is not a JW ? 

The GB / CCJW message seems to be that ONLY Baptised JWs will be saved.   

Once again the Librarian or some Admin has been busy taking one of my comments and turning it into a topic. 

It makes little sense as it is because it is out of context. It was a reply to Arauna who constantly accuses me of being in opposition to God and Christ.  

I see the Librarian has been busy again and used a comment of mine to start another topic. 

@JW Insider actually touched on some of these points in another topic. However he may not relate them to each other. 

@The Librarian But we wouldn't want to make you redundant   You do such a good job. 

I exercise a lot. I go for two hour walks, and this morning it seems I managed 137 steps per minute, speed walking, although i was only waking for 90 minutes this morning.  I also have a 'chin up bar' in the doorway between my 'office room' and the kitchen. I have a sit up bar which is permanently 'hooked' under the door. I can manage 50 sit ups on a good day, 40 on a bad day. And i have a stepper for exercise if it's raining too hard to walk outside. I love exercise for many reasons, but it makes me hungry, and another enjoyment of mine is eating.  I love fruit of many kinds, and veg. I do think about God and offer thanks for all the wonderful different kinds of food that we have to eat. (Lunch break takes me an hour, I never rush food).  I'm thinking, seriously, of learning Ballet. I was attending dance classes previously at a fabulous Studio, doing Jazz and 'street' dance, and also 'Musical theatre', but my brain wasn't quick enough to fit all the movements together. I'm physically fit enough, but my brain just doesn't seem to coordinate (is that the right word) the movements. I'm hoping Ballet will be slower and easier to learn.  At 70 years old I'm not ready to just sit in my rocking chair and sleep. I am still receiving the 'study editions' of the Watchtower but admit to not reading them often, and my Bible reading has lapsed. I drive a 'very unusual' old car which gives me great pleasure but would get disapproval from the Org, and probably gets disapproval from my neighbours too. (I don't tend to talk to my neighbours as it's not the way my wife and i want to live. We much prefer our own privacy)  I do find that older people are so boring in that they seem to think there is an age limit on everything. The old idea of, 'You can't wear that you are too old'. or, 'You can't drive a car like that at your age'....  My feeling is that Almighty God has a good sense of humour, and that he does not disapprove of so much.  

Quote @JW Insider Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about.

I can seriously relate this to the Governing Body and the Watchtower / CCJW. 

falsely interpreting signs = Signs of the times of the end

making false predictions = The 1960's through 1975. And even now 'We are living in the Final part of the Final day'

making false claims about their knowledge, = GB calling themselves the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

but that only they can lead disciples to him = You have to be a Baptised JW to be saved. 

@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

(I wrote a long comment and must have hit the wrong key and lost it all GRRRRRRR ) 

@JW Insider  I am more confused than ever now.  quote :-

'Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out.'

I always though that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

Quote :-

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night.

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, 

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed. 

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

I presume the 'bosom position of Abraham' is the common grave of mankind ? That is most likely where i will be before ten years have passed. 

@Arauna I don't understand your silly comment but then it's not important anyway. 

@JW Insider(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? 

Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

@Arauna Well I do know that JWs do suffer with depression because they are restricted so much in their words and actions. They can't even choose how to dress themselves. They worry constantly about being shunned or disfellowshipped for the least little thing. And then they have to 'put on a happy face' for the sake of others. It is such an unnatural lifestyle it makes them depressed. There are so many that are now physically in but emotionally/mentally out because they cannot bear the thought of being totally alone if they leave. 

Now if the GB / CCJW said, 'you can leave and everyone can still continue to be your friend', then I'm sure there would be a massive reduction of 'members of the club'. But of course the GB are frightened to lose members as it means loss of money and loss of 'face'. 

I can fully understand 'pushing out' a person that repeatedly sins against GOD, but that is not what happens in many cases. And the falseness of saying that 'So and so, is no longer one of JWs' instead of saying So and so has chosen to leave the CCJW. It turns the person that leaves into a complete 'sinner' which many are not. 

I also know that quite a few Elders 'step down' from their positions because of depression too. Well here in the south of England anyway. Maybe not in America because Americans love their power over people. 

So yes many JWs suffer with depression due to the rules and teachings of MEN. Of course another thing JWs are taught is 'denial', so you may not agree with my comments as you may have been brainwashed into ignoring those who are suffering within the Org. Like I say most put on the 'happy face' but under that they are depressed. 

@TrueTomHarley Wow, I can almost feel the pain you are feeling. The pain you put into your words is so deep. Do you suffer with depression ? 

@Arauna I go back to it as it is still ongoing Earth wide. The investigations and probably the child sexual abuse too. And the GB and their lawyers are still withholding the 20 + year database from the Superior Authorities that they tell you to obey.  I am sad for all JWs that think they know 'truth' but do not, and that continue to be part of such an immoral Organisation. You call it hatred but in fact I find it revolting that your leaders are so dishonest in nearly everything they say and do.   Lets be honest your GB did not spread the word earth wide, it was done many years before them. Your GB run a business. Real Estate and hiding money offshore. In my opinion the JW Org /CCJW is known for bad things earth wide, not good things. You may say that is because the Devil is fighting against the Organisation, but my point is, that your GB are creating bad publicity for them selves and for the CCJW. What this means in reality is that your GB are stumbling people. They are not making it easy for people to take an interest in God through the CCJW. Once again, in my opinion, the CCJW is not seen as different or better than other religions, because they are not showing a good high standard of morality above other religions, and they are pushing the idea of the 'Final part of the Final day' too much as if to frighten people. The CCJW is not the only non-trinitarian religion and not the only religion that believes in the coming Judgement. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism#:~:text=The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations,Scientists%2C Dawn Bible Students%2C Living

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon

I do seriously worry about JWs being physically attacked on the ministry (when it returns), because many people are now fully aware of the CSA within the Org. And as the GB do not wish to apologise for it, then it really does make it look as if they do not care. I've used the words 'Collateral damage' many times, and it seriously does look as if the GB and many JWs just look at it that way. When I was a JW I never saw it from both sides. Now I have left the CCJW I can view it from both sides as I have the experience of both sides. 

@Arauna This comment of your above, to Witness. You start off with scriptural points about Jesus' death being a complete death (which I fully believe also) But unfortunately you end up with 'mudslinging'. That is why i laugh, because you ruin you comments with bitterness. JWs should surely not do this ? Didn't Jesus say to Love your enemies ?  You do it with me also, and i don't mind because when I was a JW I was insulted by others for being one. But when I was a JW I tried not to 'spit back' at people.  Have a good day.

I always like to see things from both sides. Although what is happening is totally unnecessary and cruel.

Perhaps Russia is frightened that their Armed Forces will be weakened if thousands become JWs and refuse to go to war. From their viewpoint then it would be seen as extreme not to want to fight for or defend 'your country'.

However from the JW viewpoint, JWs do not have a country in this 'world'. Alien residents in a foreign land. 

So is it that Russia is deliberately 'fighting against God', or is it that Russia is frightened of losing it's powerful place in this world ? 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Playing games?  It does not hide the hate-OCD.

You are the one that is playing games, just as you have been trained by your leaders. They too accuse people of things just to hide their own sins. You use this silly OCD excuse because you are frightened to answer simple questions. If only you knew how sad it makes you look. 

But I'll say again You do not know the difference between serving Almighty God through Christ, or, serving your GB and it's Org. When the GB are gone it will be such a shock to you. 

You must be very bored Tom. 

@Arauna 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Only to those who hate Jehovah and his people

Oh dear, you still get Almighty God and the Org mixed up don't you ? 

Almighty God can be loved and served without the one loving being a JW.  And you use the word hate too freely IMO. 

I have no hate for anyone but i do have deep dislike for anyone deliberately misleading people. 

@Arauna You are so funny. Your Organisation teaches people about your Organisation. 

It teaches that people can only be 'saved' through your Organisation. It teaches that the Leaders, the GB, are special, that they are the Faithful and discreet Slave. It teaches that the rest of the Anointed are not important and should not gather together.  It teaches that 'we are in the final part of the final day' when in fact, NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR. It disfellowships and shuns anyone that disagrees with the GB's teachings. 

It pretends to give Bible studies, but in truth it gives BOOK studies. And those books are written by the GB and their helpers. Then next year they scrap the book and teach something different, because they do not have truth. 

The true way to serve God is through Christ, not through your GB. 

@Arauna The GB know that they are deliberately doing wrong yet continue to do it. How can that be serving God properly ?

The GB call themselves the Faithful and Discreet slave, but they are neither faithful or discreet. 

The GB through the Watchtower magazine, hype up the 'final part of the final day' just to try to frighten people inside and outside of the Org, and to try to bring money in through donations. The GB make it so obvious they are drunk with their power over people. 

Islam is earth wide. The Catholic church is earth wide. Being earth wide proves nothing.

And you seem to be the one obsessed with OCD. it seem to be the only excuse you have to criticise people. 

As for Bible characters, they were inspired of God's Holy Spirit to do good works. You GB is NOT inspired, nor even guided by God's Holy Spirit. By their works you will know them. 

Your GB are the one's that are opposing God, not me. I left the CCJW because it is full of immorality. Your GB still hide paedophiles in the American part of the Org. Withholding that 20 + year database is in opposition to God, because it keeps the CCJW unclean. If you cannot see that it is because you are part of it. 

Your GB and their helpers have stumbled people in the past and continue to do so. If you think 'the end' is sooooo near then you would want the CCJW made clean and you would want the true Anointed to stand in their proper place and the Org to be run properly, and real Truth taught. 

BUT your main problem. like most JWs, is that you cannot understand that God is not your GB, and your GB are not God. They are two very separate 'beings'. Disliking your GB does not put me in opposition to God and Christ. And my reasons for disliking your GB are in line with God and Christ and the Bible. 

http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com/racism2.html 

It took only until his second issue of ZION'S WATCH TOWER, August 1879, before editor Charles Taze Russell permitted a racist witticism:

"The practice of many in teaching is no more consistent than was that of the old Negro who made Paul vindicate him in theft: 'Let him that stole, steal.' The words 'no more', did not suit his purpose."

*******************

"... no doubt, many of the negroes once slaves in the United States were happier and better provided for in slavery, than now that they are their own masters." -- ZION'S WATCH TOWER, June 1888.

"The negro race is supposed to be descended from Ham, whose special degradation is mentioned in Gen. 9:22,25." -- ZION'S WATCH TOWER, August 1, 1898