Patiently waiting for Truth

If you believe this as such is both odd and confusing granted in disagreement with several said core teachings from God's Word (i.e. you had recently judged everyone as guilty without even knowing them, their background, etc. that logic of yours is akin to some Americans think all police officers are guilty, as of recent events, when THAT isn't the case - hence the latter remark is befitting), more so, several verses in some of your other responses to which I made comment to reveals the correctness of what is incorrect by sheer misguidance.

That being said, you've now stumble upon your own realm of contradiction which correlates with your other responses. Also regarding the other, is somewhat Restorationist, hence the latter being correct in this sense.

@Space Merchant  The only bit of the above that I understand is the reference to a White Police officer killing a Black man. But why you felt the need to include that i do not know. 

So, now give me complete references as to all your accusations against me please. If not, then you are just puffing out hot air. 

@Space Merchant I'll admit to knowing nothing at all about Gnostics . I did 'google' it a bit but I find myself in trouble when I believe what I find on google. If what I read is true they seem a rather unpleasant type of people. 

The makers of 'The Chosen' make it clear that it is not 100% scripturally based.  And I don't think it is meant as a Bible study or as a 'true to life' series. I agree that it would be wrong for people to take this series too seriously as 'truth'. 

Your paragraph comments numbered 1 & 2, I think are rather sad. 

But as I've said, for my part I was much happier watching The Chosen, than watching most other films available now. 

Why MUST some people have a platform to prove themselves!  It comes from ego and ambition!   Some are never thankful and count their blessings! The glass is half empty if they cannot have a "spiritual " say......

The core teachings are there! So what can you add?

Lets look at this statement from @Arauna 

Why MUST some people have a platform to prove themselves! 

I don't know, Why does the GB need to  have a platform to prove themselves

It comes from ego and ambition! Yes JWI has already said this about the GB  

The glass is half empty if they cannot have a "spiritual " say...... The GB are the only ones ALLOWED to have their spiritual say, and quite often it is wrong. 

The core teachings are there! So what can you add? 

The CORE TEACHINGS have always been there in God's written word. @Space Merchant has the core teachings and he is not a JW.  The GB did not invent those core teachings. 

So why can't the GB just stick with those core teachings ? After all, you say what can they add.

BUT the GB constantly add things. And the organisation has constantly changed it's teachings, so they obviously didn't get a lot of 'core teachings' right and probably still don't. 

Would it actually be tooooooo difficult to have KH meetings just to give thanks and praise to God through Christ. Why does the GB & Writing dept, have to dream up rubbish to 'tickle people's ears' ?  

Isn't the Kingdom message the same now as when the Apostles / disciples went out and preached ? 

Isn't God's written word enough to use ? The Apostles didn't have all the Greek scriptures. 

But you and @TrueTomHarley have proved that you don't teach from the Bible, you teach from the GB talk outlines and from the Watchtower...  'Sticking to the outline', Tom said. Proving that your 'faith' is not in God through Christ but in your GB. 

Quote @Anna 

Again, there has to be organizational leadership in order for an organization to function, and there even has to be spiritual leadership, leading by example. But is it right for one man, or group of men, to have exclusive monopoly on the INTERPRETATION of scripture, but more importantly should this group have the right to insist that everyone accepts only their interpretation, and if not, they may be denied membership, or if they are already members it will be counted as "treason" and they will be ex-communicated (in our society we no longer chop peoples heads off) and ordered to live like outcasts, outlaws, banished and shunned by the whole community as they know it, including relatives. It sounds to me like something from my movie. Is this the model Jesus had in mind? I repeat, as a group, the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects". Remove that support and they are "nothing". But didn't Jesus say we should support one another, and come to the aid of our brothers?

Can we examine this paragraph please. 

1. Organisational leadership. Over practical things yes. 

2. Spiritual leadership. This can only be done by those who are guided directly by God, through Christ, through Holy spirit. It creates a problem when men decide for themselves that THEY are God's spokespersons. 

3. Monopoly on interpretation of scripture. The problem seems to have been that 'men' have given false interpretations. And those 'men' have made themselves false prophets. 

4. Their interpretation. To me this is a dictatorship. And if you add the fact that 'their interpretation' of scripture will differ to suit their own needs, then it becomes an insult to God and Christ. 

5. Treason / D/fed. To my mind this confirms the dictatorship.  Wrongful use of excommunicating 

6. Live like Outcasts / Shunned by all JWs.  This is one reason I think JWs should be issued with a 'Rule book' which they should be allowed to read BEFORE getting baptised. As a person that is 'suffering' such I would like to read it in the rules to see what it actually says, and to see what scriptures it is based on.  

7. Is this the model Jesus had in mind ?  Having the 'mind of Christ'.  This is where I mention time and time again, about lack of spirituality. 

8. the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects" Wrong, It is not support it is fear. Just look at what you have mentioned above, it proves fear.  It reminds me of the German Army. I don't think those men wanted to kill so many people, but they were frightened not to. To some outsiders it would look as if they were supporting Hitler, but in reality the soldiers were frightened of him. So it is with the GB, they may look to be supported, but the brothers and sisters live in fear of being disfellowshipped which is like death to them. 

9.  Remove that support and they are "nothing. I've been saying this for a long time. If congregants  stopped their donations completely, and stopped attending KH meetings, then the GB 'might' start to have a re-think. Doubtful though as their hearts seem to have hardened against their own people, just like the Jewish religious leaders.  

10. Come to the aid of our brothers. The GB have stopped acting like brothers. They have exalted themselves above all of God's servants. Congregants are now frightened of the Elders and more so of the GB. The GB have made up 'rules of men' and 'traditions of men'. 

11. But didn't Jesus say we should support one another, Re-read your paragraph. Do you see any support from the GB ? Or do you see heavy loads put on congregants shoulders and the GB not lifting one finger to help ? 

There are Anointed ones Earthwide. Almighty God will use them when HE is ready to use them. Either the CCJW will be cleansed and re-organised, or, God, through Christ,will form another organisation. 

The Chosen isn't supposed to be correct to scripture. But you know that anyway. I wonder if this is just yet another dig at me.  Such a shame. 

It is about the lives of the Jewish people at that time.  

I've watched the first Series and I think it is very good. I don't want to watch Jesus being killed, i want to watch Jesus when He lived. And to see his disciples and how they interacted. 

It is totally way off from the Bible. But well worth viewing. Why ? Because whilst you are watching it your mind is concentrating on Jesus, His disciples, the Jewish way of life, the 'nasty' Romans, and the general feel of what it would have been like. 

It's a shame some folks have to dissect it. I get the sense that such ones must be rather unhappy in their lives. 

Well certain people on here only believe their own viewpoint on scripture.. So it is a waste of time trying to debate sensibly with them. 

The funny thing is with some people that if you don't fully agree with their viewpoint, they tell everyone that you have made a mistake. Um, could it not possibly be them that has made a mistake ?  Oh no, well not with a certain man anyway. He thinks he is always right. Then he expects others to admit a mistake which they haven't actually made.

I tend to go quiet sometimes for two reason. 1. I start to think deeper about a subject. 2. I don't want to waste my time arguing, as arguing is so negative. 

But that man tends to harp on and on when a person does not reply to him. I think he feels hurt. He seems to demand a reply, which makes me laugh at him. He is so full of his own self importance. I can understand why he would 'defend' the Governing Body of CCJW. They both always think they are right. 

I presume you have every paper copy of every magazine from 1966 through 1975, to prove your point. 

Other wise you have no proof. That one article proves nothing. The CCJW back track all the time. 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

If only  half percent of JWs did a bad thing, you will focus only on the half percent with OCD attention span. 

You yourself know that the bible indicates that people can become wicked - why even Jesus lost one of his twelve apostles - which is actually a little over 8 percent.

I suppose you think RJ Furuli Ph D, has OCD as well  

And what  about JWI when he mentions problems in the CCJW. Has he got OCD ?

You say this about me " the response is always the same old, same old. "

But your response is always 'OCD'.   Same old same old.

Quote ' The thing to "note" is, when did higher education "guarantee" success? '

BUT the GB quite happily use Lawyers in many court cases. They would have had higher education. 

And i would imagine that many of the 'top brass' in HQ / Bethel had more than a basic education. 

Who did the planning for that massive building project at Warwick ?

But TTH rabbits on and so does Aurana, both totally unbalanced on the subject.  It is a matter of balance. 

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Several of the anecdotes that Furuli offers are exactly the type of anecdotes that have stuck with me over the years.

Just a few days ago, I related the story about how my father, an elder, was giving a talk at a circuit assembly with the theme: "The time left is reduced." During this time period, assembly speakers had used a large visual aid with the number of months left to 1975. My father gave the talk according to the outline but as a reminder to always stay balanced he added a quick reference Matthew 24:42, "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."

The District Overseer took my father aside, in front of the Circuit Overseer to counsel him for adding that scripture. The Watchtower had recently warned against using this scripture in a way that might appear to reduce the enthusiasm over 1975.

Furuli gives a similar example:

An Italian brother with a great knowledge of the Bible and related
subjects told me that he gave a public lecture in his congregation. After the
talk, two elders approached him and gave him credit for some details he
had discussed that were new to them. But they also reprimanded him
because he had quoted two scriptures that were not found in the printed
outline of the talk. ''We must not add anything to the material that comes
from the slave," were their words. This situation shows that many Witnesses
today view the eight men in the GB almost as prophets and oracles. They
are the only ones that can teach others the Bible, and we must follow them
closely.

Thank you @JW Insider   This gets better every minute. 

A complete lack of spirituality shown in both instances. 

But @Space Merchant might question the use of the large visual aid with the number of months left to 1975. He seems to think that JW Org didn't 'predict' it as Armageddon.

Because no one can call the members of the GB to
account, they have been able to lead the organization in the direction of
their choice-they have formed the organization into their own image.
The present organizational structure, where the members of the GB
believe that they have both the obligation and the right to be a government
for Jehovah's Witnesses, has created great problems.

Mr Rook and I have said such things so many times. 

One thing i do find very funny on here and in the CCJW is this. 

Everyone seems to say 'Read the Bible' 'Study God's Word' 'Pray for Holy Spirit'

BUT when a person does those things and comes to an understanding of scripture, oh dear, they must be wrong because they don't agree with YOU !  

@Arauna I agree with your latest comment. One reason being that I truly believe the Greek Scriptures are meant for the true Anointed to understand, not the 'domestic' Earthly class. 

Just look on this forum how many different opinions there are. My opinion is no better or worse that any other. 

One man on here says he 'studies religions', but is that what God really requires of us ?  How long would it take us to study all religions ? 

Just one little point. The GB 'inspired' Elders have regularly told congregants to 'Leave it with Jehovah' when congregants have been wronged, even to the point of CSA. 

But when the GB / CCJW / W/t are wronged they get their Lawyers to fight it all the way. 

So why can't they just 'Leave it with Jehovah' ?  Is it all about the money ? 

Well this example of the GB and their lawyers will probably 'inspire' more CSA victims to fight it all the way. After all it seems that the GB and you people are only interested in people's 'rights according to law'. 

I'll just repeat this as Space Merchant is going on so much. 

Matthew 5 v 38 through 42

 “You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ ³⁹  However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. ⁴⁰  And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment;c ⁴¹  and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. ⁴²  Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you.

The GB and their Lawyers do not understand the spiritual things from God. 

It also seems they are ashamed of their own videos. 

And it seems that a lot of people here do not understand the spiritual things from God or Bible principles. 

But of course the GB need the money now, donations are probably going down and court case costs are probably going up. 

TTH rabbits on worse that a squawking parrot. The Org does this the Org does that. Give it a rest Tom. 

Here in the UK we have 'Food Banks' making up food parcels and distributing to households. There is even a teacher that makes up 'school meal' parcels and delivers them to pupils homes. None of those people are JWs. 

There are probably millions of 'humanists' earthwide and here in UK  https://humanism.org.uk/

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Usually you have to read a book before you comment on what it proves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Furuli?fbclid=IwAR1hVDMbNLhaYsVijFkSQinHVUTf8N9iSM0LgwjSXiz-jIwqTM2ZDfq-nno

I think his Wiki page showing his previous works gives enough evidence of his use of higher education and the first red.it link gives a clue as to content of this book. But Tom only quote half and then avoids the true point of it all as usual. 

 @Ann O'Maly 

"The “faithful and discreet slave” refers to any Christian who is
faithful and on the watch when Jesus comes as the judge in the
great tribulation. It does not refer to a class that gives spiritual
food during Christ’s presence." - p. 72.

I think I'd go with what God's word says on this one....  Matthew 24 v 45 

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

I love your choice of words here.  Quote "  what 'apostates' have banged on about for decades. "

I think the truth is, that it is nice to have different viewpoints. 

@Ann O'Maly  This is wonderful news. Music to my ears. I think @James Thomas Rook Jr. would love this too. 

It would be so funny if this book says things that i have been saying on here for a long time. 

Quote  

"There was no governing body in the first century CE. Therefore, the present Governing Body has no legacy and should be dissolved." - p. 135.

I love this. But if I say to much i will be D/fed from this forum, as John Butler was. Even that word 'dissolved' might pose a threat.  

Quote,  " he blasts the current GB for losing their way, being power- and money-grabbing, amongst other complaints, and he scripturally dismantles the FDS doctrine. " 

Mr Rook said similar things and so have I.  

Is this only available as an e-book ?   Is it or will it be available in 'real paper copy' ? 

@TrueTomHarley  Could be the start of something big Tom ?   And before you say it, NO I'm not looking to follow men But it is nice to get an honest / alternative point of view isn't it. 

And the CCJW say that higher education is a waste of time. Um, I wonder why they would say that. 

I think this gentleman and his book proves the point I'm making here. 

 Quote @Space Merchant I haven't see anything from you concerning Biblical Unitarianism. If so, give some insight because I see nothing of the sort from you.

Please check out our website TruthOrTradition.com, which covers a variety of biblical topics and has an expanded Statement of Beliefs.

What is Our Relationship with The Body of Christ?

The Body of Christ is our family. Christians of every denomination are our brothers and sisters. We were each adopted into this family when we accepted Christ as our Lord. In Galatians 6:10, Christians are instructed to be “especially good to the household of faith,” and to do things particularly for “one another”—like bear one another’s burdens, be subject to one another, be devoted to one another, speak truth to one another, and love one another. We are also tasked with maintaining the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. 

Is this any good for a starter ? 

Quote @Space Merchant  "What some fail to see is that Jesus gave instruction on how the church is to function."

In the 1st Century there was one Christian religion, as it should still be, but it isn't. 

Now there are many different 'Christian' religions each with their own 'leaders'. 

If I'm right in my thinking, your religion is more tolerant of others, but the CCJW is not. 

You seem more tolerant of some other religions than JWs would be, because JWs are told there is only one way to serve God, and that is through the CCJW.  

Quote "That being said, this just shows you assume things without knowing."

@Space Merchant  I assumed that you are not a JW and that you have a close relationship with God through Christ. 

I also assumed that TTH believes that a person can only serve God through the CCJW 

When using the actions of 'the world' to make excuses for the actions of one's own religion then In My Opinion (and I am allowed an opinion) it makes them part of the world. 

To say that everyone else does this or that, is judging one's own standards by 'worldly standards', not by God's standards.. 

For instance, saying that CSA is everywhere in 'the world', is not a good enough reason to accept it in one's own religion. And to say that everyone else misquotes scientists etc, is not a good reason to think that deliberately misquoting someone is good. 

Jehovah's Witnesses think that their Organisation's standards are higher than the standards of 'the world'. This is being constantly disproved, not only by 'opposers' but by JWs themselves. Therefor the CCJW Organisation, like most other religions, is just part of the world. 

The Spirit of this world includes, telling lies, being deceitful, hiding the truth, being dishonest, lacking love and mercy and mistreating others. Many Jehovah's Witnesses, from the top downwards, are guilty of these things. Hence i say that they are part of this world. 

So @TrueTomHarley never asks anyone's opinion of anything. Oh, hang on, he does actually, he asks the GB / CCJW / Watchtower opinion of everything by hanging on to their every word..  So that he can think like them. 

But Tom's opinion about Elders seems to be that they are robots programmed to only give GB viewpoints.

As one human being, i was asking another human being their point of view on a matter.  But Tom doesn't seem to like that idea. I think it frightens him. The idea of actually having a personal opinion is something foreign to Tom it seems. 

I wonder how the Governing Body work then ? If they are not allowed to ask other people's opinion. And Elders in a congregation. not allowed to ask other people's opinions. 

Quote "you think it is right that Christians should be followers of men?"

You are a followed of men Tom, you follow your GB and their helpers. 

Quote "God’s laws and principles are to be found in the Bible. That is where the guidance and boundaries are. That is where members are to go so as to grow spiritually."

Yes indeed, and people do go to God's word, and by doing so they prove to themselves that your GB / W/t teachings are wrong.  And one does not have to be a JW to do it either. 

Maybe you would like to discuss with @Space Merchant whether you need to be a JW to obtain guidance from God's word and to grow spiritually. 

Quote " The hope is that they should grow to maturity, make decisions per God’s laws and principles, "

But by CCJW standards those 'decisions made' have to be inline with the GB / JW Org. So basically the decisions are made for you. You see how you follow men. 

Quote ..Because we don’t follow watchtower...no matter what others say....or try to infer on many of us here.

That is so funny. No more than a month ago I was talking with an Elder on the telephone and I asked him about his view on something. His reply was that he would have to go and do some research on it. I wanted HIS viewpoint, not the Org's viewpoint, but i do know that JWs are told not to give their own personal viewpoint on anything relating to the Bible or the Org.  (been there, done that)

It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. And his context was only that it fit the time from Jesus' birth to the year 70. If you read the entire reference, you can see that it's just as much about how Jesus' words would fit the period of 40 years from the year 30 to the year 70. And that it would fit the 75 year idea, too.

@JW Insider  This is what you wrote. So, you seem to be saying that the W/t took it completely out of context, and that the statement was completely false. Is my assumption correct ?

Now the Organisation / Watchtower / CCJW / GB are supposed to be 'spirit directed' is this correct ?

If you add what TTH said to what you said then I cannot see any direction of Holy Spirit at all. 

You and Tom really do seem to forget that you are talking about, what is supposed to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, giving the proper food at the right time.

This organisation you belong to is supposed to be the 'one and only Truth', but it is full of un-truth as you keep telling us all so clearly. 

Another quote "but chronology is one of those things that we still carry on from traditions that go back nearly 150 years now. "

Traditions of men ?   Wasn't that a fault of the Jewish religious leaders ? 

Yes @Space Merchant I do realise that Jesus has all authority and power given to him and that he leads God's people by the use of Holy Spirit.  

The point i was making was that a person does not need to be guided by the CCJW or Watchtower or their GB.  I think in part you would agree with this ? You yourself are not a JW but you feel you have a close relationship with God through Christ. 

Mr Harley seems to feel that a person has to be a JW and work inline with that organisation to be able to serve God. 

@TrueTomHarley  I've noticed that you have changed your comment.  

@TrueTomHarley   He lost all his kids—none will speak with him. And for what? So as to spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread?  That is worth losing your family for?

You are a writer, and like many writers you write in riddles. But the gist of the above is that James spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread? 

James spoke truth. He didn't shy away from it. And if his children turned away from him for his speaking truth, then his children are at fault, not James. 

And if you are still so spiritually immature that you need to be 'bottle fed' by your GB, and if you are brainwashed into believing that the CCJW have God's approval, then you seriously have a problem for yourself. 

Its a good job the disciples didn't feel that they still needed to be bottle fed by the Scribes and the Pharisees after Jesus was no longer on Earth. After Jesus had been resurrected to heaven the disciples had no leader on earth. They relied on being guided from above, by Holy Spirit.