Or one could suggest that you Tom are taking the cowardly way out. You are trying to convince yourself that it is God's organisation, as it makes life easier for you. You then just obey your GB and follow without question. How simple, not to think for yourself.  Content to just be a follower of men.  Even though you know how rotten the CCJW is. But perhaps God will judge you on that, because you have intelligence enough and knowledge enough  to know better, but you prefer to hide behind the rule of men.  So it could be you that is shooting yourself in the foot.  After all if the disciples hadn't have broken away from the Jewish way of life, they would not have found truth from Christ. Hence many have left the CCJW and are looking for truth through Christ. Time will tell who is right. 

Kind of funny really because John Butler mentioned about the GB being removed and he got D/fed from here for it. 

I can see being in isolation has cracked you lot up already 

As for James' question :-

If a JW votes in a national election ... will there be congregational sanctions against him?

Answer : Not right now because all meetings are cancelled. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

My favorite circuit overseer—an old fellow—long ago said that he doesn’t argue with trinitarians. “I’ve never convinced one,” he said.

I’m struck by the verse that has cropped up a few times recently on how ‘wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.‘ Trouble is, if you apply that verse to anyone, they just turn around and apply it to you, as Tom Henry discovers multiple times every week.

Let whoever it is be firmly convinced in his own mind’ Paul said somewhere. It will have to be one of those things you leave in God’s hands, and see whether the blessings flow to wherever you have chosen to be. To quote an odd expression of Jesus: ‘where the carcass is, there the eagles will gather.’ Fine carcasses where i hang out, I think.

My books—I think all of them—include contact information with the proviso that I’m not an arguer. “Sometimes people disagree. He can live with that,” I say in the third person of myself.

God knows if he is a trinity or not. For atheists, he knows if he exists or not. For characters here, he knows if he has a ‘true anointed’ to pull from his sleeve or not. He knows if he is going to have all the heavenly bodies stand on their heads so we can draw conclusions or not. He knows if his home base is a Facebook page or not. I’ll preach truth as I know it and throw all the rest on his lap. He can handle it.

Yes and God knows the heart of a GB member when he says about Covid-19, that he is not bothered by it, and he was expecting it anyway.

When his own brothers are dying in Italy it seems.. 

Yes i agree with that scripture ‘wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.‘

Your Governing Body couldn't get much more wicked. Misusing people's pain and suffering to pretend it is a sign.. 

He (Almighty God) knows if he has a ‘true anointed’ to pull from his sleeve or not.  And you Tom, will have to make a decision when HE does it. 

The thing is Tom, you are part of admin on here, and can say whatever you like, but John Butler was d/fed from here for saying what needed to be said. So I will hold back on what needs saying here.

But even in this horrific virus Tom you waste no time before you misuse it to your own gain.

You are a writer, a story teller. And now you are using this Covid-19 to throw more bricks at non JWs.

If the GB are also going to misuse the misery that people are suffering just to hype up their own viewpoint then you must expect criticism.  The Org, in one form or another, has been misusing world events to proclaim the 'last days' since the late 1800's. And according to JWI the last days started in 33 C. E.  Nearly 2,000 years of last days. 

It's very sad if your brothers have died. It's very sad that anyone should die before reaching a good old age. But millions of people have been dying in lots of disasters for thousands of years. This is just one more disaster. Only the fact that each and every day is one day closer to Judgement time matters, not misusing disasters to make a false point. 

And as for JWs being more obedient to government requirements, well here in UK they have still been meeting in people's houses. Small groups maybe, but still meeting. 

Quote "The trick is to allow other viewpoints to exist besides your own. Tolerance. "

Although you write this I don't think you believe it or practice it 

Quote @JW Insider " But I'm sure you already realized that you don't need faith in a chronology to understand that our basic "truth" comes from the perfect example of Christ Jesus. "

Very true but one of the GB once said something like 'God and Christ trusts us'

In the opening talk of the March 2018 Broadcast, the theme of which was “In Whom Do You Trust?”, governing body member Gerrit Losch said the following:

“But Jehovah and Jesus trust the imperfect slave who cares for things to the best of his ability and with the best of motives.
Shouldn’t we then trust the imperfect slave as well?
To appreciate the extent of Jehovah and Jesus’ trust in the faithful slave, reflect on what he has promised its members.
He has promised them immortality and incorruption.
Soon, just before Armageddon, the remaining members of the slave will be taken to heaven.
Since 1919 of our Common Era, the slave has been put in charge of some belongings of Christ.
According to Matthew 24:47, when the anointed are taken to heaven, Jesus will at that point entrust “all his belongings” to them.
Does this not reveal immense trust?
Revelation 4:4 describes these resurrected anointed as corulers with Christ.
Revelation 22:5 says they will rule, not only for a thousand years but “forever and ever.”
What immense trust Jesus shows toward them! Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust “the faithful and discreet slave,” should we not do the same?

Now it seems that many JWs do not actually trust the 'GB / Slave' but 'use' the CCJW just as a meting place or 'safe house'. 

Each of you here seem to be of your own opinion, so not actually believing the words of the GB, whom you would say are the F&DS. Sorry but it makes no sense to me to part of that Org run by people that you actually don't trust or believe in. 

Quote  "our basic "truth" comes from the perfect example of Christ Jesus. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. "

So therefore I'm not convinced that being a part of the CCJW is of help. 

@Anna said 

You asked about my viewpoint on those questions. I honestly don't know. And I really don't think it matters too much. It should not matter in view of what it means to be a true Christian. JW Insider pointed that out. A lot of the attitude now is "let's wait and see". The important thing is being found to be on God's side when it all goes down.

Anna I agree with you about being on God's side. However Jesus said 'Whoever is not against us is for us'. And Jesus spoke about a reward for those that helped the Anointed ones. Jesus did NOT say that they all had to belong to the CCJW 

So I am still keeping separate these two things : 1. Serving God through Christ.  2. The need to belong to the CCJW. 

And the more I read on here the more I can be sure that many JWs and doing both 1 & 2 BUT they are NOT doing 1. through 2.  

Therefore I see no point in being part of the CCJW as even long serving JWs do not trust it's leaders. 

Back on topic From my quote above, by governing body member Gerrit Losch

Soon, just before Armageddon, the remaining members of the slave will be taken to heaven.

@JW Insider  Thank you for giving your time to answering my questions. 

I would like to understand you more as a person and how you relate to the CCJW. But many things are of course not my business. 

I do note that you have differing opinions to the GB and CCJW on some matters here. 

In your answers to Kosonen 

But do you really think the vision of the four horsemen refers to all the time from the first century?

Yes, of course.

I think the vision of the four horsemen begins when Michel, Jesus Christ has completely cleared Satan and his demons from heaven.

So do I.

I'm getting the feeling here that you are saying that Jesus cleaned Satan and the demons out of heaven in 33 C. E. 

Whereas the CCJW teach it was in 1914. Am I correct in my thinking here ? 

Now I know that it will look as if I'm just finding fault with the GB and the Org, but I'm not. In honesty my heart is passed all that. My heart is heavy with pain and misery because i do not know truth nor do I expect to find truth.  Everyone is allowed their own opinion and on here there are many different opinions. Although I pray to God for help and guidance, it does not happen. Reading God's word does not give me understanding or wisdom. 

But if your understanding of scripture is right and it is in disagreement with the GB, and the CCJW as a whole, then which of you is receiving the guidance of holy spirit ?

Neither God nor Christ would work against themselves or against each other. So I cannot understand it when many people that 'seem' to be sincere and seem to be looking for truth arrive at opposing results. 

If a person is to preach and teach, firstly they have to know truth themselves. Therefore I could not preach and teach, because i do not know truth from misunderstandings. 

OK I can see I need to be more humble. In future I will try.  But I promise nothing. 

@JW Insider  Please can you answer a few questions VERY simply for me.

1. Does the GB / CCJW teach that the apostles and early anointed ones are in heaven NOW reigning with Christ ?

 Are you saying that You believe that the apostles and early anointed ones are still 'in the grave' awaiting their resurrection ?

2. Does the GB / CCJW teach that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in 1914 ? Or maybe another year ?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ became King in 33 C. E. ? 

3. When do the GB / CCJW teach that the '4 horsemen'  start or started riding ? Was it 1914 ?

When do you believe the 4 horsemen started riding ? Are you saying they started riding in 33 C. E. ?

I only want very simple answers and no need to back it up with scripture. 

@Kosonen If you want to answer these same questions from your own viewpoint then please do. But please keep it simple. 

Having just read the last five comments, a couple of which were big and deep (well for my simple brain anyway) I get very confused. 

@TrueTomHarley and @Anna  Your input would also be welcome. But as above please keep it simple for me. 

I need to know from a JW standpoint what is really being taught right now and what JWs believe from their own viewpoint. 

27 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

Signs are inclusive to frequency not numbers of the population. There has been catastrophic events in the past. The Black Plague is one. That doesn't mean that event was followed by another damaging event, like they have been since 1914. The influenza of 1918 started at the time WW1 was ending. FREQUENCY.

So what are you suggesting Tom ? Are you saying it proves the world is closer to Armageddon ? 

With or without any happening, each day brings the world closer to Armageddon. I just see the Org or individual JWs grasping at straws with each new disease or virus or world problem...

It's so very obvious that things will get much worse each year as the immorality and degeneration of humans continues. And that will continue until God brings it to a halt. 

When it rains the ground gets wet. If I get up in the morning and step outside and the ground is very wet it's a sign to me that it has been raining. But it's not a sign that a flood is coming. 

Each disaster or horrible event around the world is a sign that the world is in the hands of the devil and that the human race cannot rule themselves, but it is not a sign of the closeness of Armageddon. 

No organisation is suitable for God to use right now. No organisation is clean enough or Spiritual enough or has enough Faith. No service to God through Christ is good enough right now.  None. A lot needs to happen and that takes time. I have faith that it will happen, hence I'm not looking at Armageddon coming soon and I'm not looking for the physical signs that the Org seems to be looking for.  

God needs 'spiritual men' and the CCJW only offer 'physical men'.  There will be years of suffering yet to come before God has what He needs to work with. 

20 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

I'm not easily offended. I can play that game to. However, You have certain privileges not afforded to an honest witness. You get to offend while others get banned by the Admin and Librarian. Since they closed this open forum, Then their rules from the JW only forum should apply here. If this forum is closed but continues to be a forum for ex-witness banter, then, all's fair in love and war. When it comes to the first amendment, no one can pick and choose who they like, open forum or closed forum.

No idea about the 'first amendment' as I'm not American I'm English. As for the 'rules' of JW open or closed forums I've no idea.

I've always thought this forum was open to anyone JW or not. @Witness is not a JW and a few others aren't either. Maybe there are some that never were JWs on here. It matters not to me who I'm sharing comments with, I do not discriminate. 

Jesus said to 'love your enemies' and the Org always used to say 'continue putting up with one another', so that's how i see it. 

But in honesty I don't think I've been excessively rude or offensive, unless I'm just getting less sensitive. And as you say its just 'banter', whether ex-witness or JW. 

I think there is a closed JW 'inner chamber' here for JWs only, if you would prefer to be in that. Though I would think it would be very boring.  Even @TrueTomHarley comes out to play here sometimes as he gets bored in there. 

Christian love to you Tom Henry, I mean you no harm. 

It seems that China also have Bird Flu now too.  We're doomed Captain Mainwaring doomed I say. 

Is it another sign ?  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7987009/Bird-flu-breaks-two-Chinese-provinces-near-coronaviruss-epicentre.html

It seems that bird flu can affect humans mentally as well as physically. My wife thinks we will soon have zombies wandering around   Tom think i am one already 

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

The book of Revelation informs that after the fall of Babylon the Great, the heavenly resurrection begins. 

Revelation 14:8  Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!”

In verse 13, in the same chapter are we informed that the heavenly reward follows directly at death. So it must happen after the fall of Babylon the Great.

"And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

Then after some unknown relatively short period the remaining approved anointed will be gathered to heaven. This will happen when Jesus arrives with a very spectacular manifestation.

Revelation 1:7  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen

 

Mark 13:24  “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25  and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26  And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27  And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

This is in accord with:

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18  So keep comforting one another with these words.

1 John 2:28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence.

 

Mark 13:33  Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

 

So are you saying, that you think, the Apostles and others of the dead anointed are not with God and Christ yet ?

Are you suggesting that all the anointed will go to heaven at or after Armageddon ? 

17 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But you make yourself look and sound so stupid.

I find this comment highly offensive. Where is the moderator Anna.

I don't know what the rules are here, but I would say common courtesy should apply across the board of course, so @4Jah2me please control yourself. Thank you.

Two can play at this game. I will remember to report any comments I don't like then. 

If @Tom Henry is so easily offended then why is he here ?  

Should I report that TTH said that 'I'm losing it ' 

@TrueTomHarley said "He really is losing it." and I'm deeply offended. Help me Anna  

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Lord, that fellow is a moron! Post a comment about the Corona virus and the worldwide financial collapse and he attaches a laughing emoji to it!

Does it not remind anyone with a shred of decency of Jesus words? 

“How long must I continue with you? How long must I put up with you?”

He really is losing it.

Tom you would make a good Pharisee. You twist all things seen and written. 

IT IS YOU THAT I LAUGH AT TOM, not the horrors of this world. 

Seeking a sign, using anything that may look like a sign. 

Lets just remind people of what you said Tom, 

15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As signs go, a worldwide plague that crashes public health systems, along with decimated markets that will throw endless people into poverty, if not death, is hardly a yawner.

You could write a book about it Tom. Or are you just hoping and yearning for Armageddon ?  

Another 9½ years Tom  

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Next thing you know these yo-yos will be saying that Bethel cooked up the virus themselves so as to carry out this nefarious scheme.

But it won't be as funny as the overlapping generations  

How do you know, The Org is NOT God's choice.

One simple answer.

Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

¹⁵ “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. ¹⁶ You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? ¹⁷ Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. ¹⁸ A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. ¹⁹ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰ Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Good old Tom. Oh how he loves himself.  TTH how much web space do you want to continue wasting ?  

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Not a problem. I knew it was for @4Jah2me, I just thought it might be easier for him to know that if someone translated it.

[Non è un problema. Sapevo che era per @4Jah2me, ho solo pensato che sarebbe stato più facile per lui sapere che se qualcuno lo traducesse.]

I can use 'translate' you know. 

Who wants to see a brother get sick and possibly die just because non-witnesses are advocating social disobedience?

Oh dear you people do make me laugh. Is this how you frighten your children ? 

non-witnesses are advocating social disobedience..  Give it a rest.

You really are making the CCJW seem like a cult, and I've never used that expression before. But you make yourself look and sound so stupid. You lump all non JWs together and pretend they are at war with the CCJW and with the world.  

And as for Keeping observing in safeguarding the faithful. Um, sounds like Matthew 5 

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 

@Srecko Sostar It means as always that they are looking for a sign. 

The GB and Writing department are physical men not spiritual men.

They need physical signs as they have no true Faith in God or Christ. 

They grab hold of anything to use it as a sign.

So, GB calling themselves the F&DS, not inspired of God, but placing themselves above all other Anointed ones. Supposedly guiding an organisation from scripture, but unable to, or not willing to, answer questions from a loyal servant of 50 years standing.  That sounds like a worldly government to me. 

But of course they will grab your donations willingly. 

Don't you honestly think there is something seriously wrong there ?

Don't you think that if it was God's true organisation God would sort it out ? 

Don't you think Christ would just give it a kick up the rump ? 

The question i would like to ask I cannot, for fear of  being d/fed from here, and that's how wrong the GB of CCJW are, they even have overpowering influence here.

Here in UK it seems that more people are opening up their homes and people are meeting in groups of around twenty. Quite reminds me of the 'Tuesday group meetings / book study' we used to have.

It's kinda funny that even though they all shun me they still want me to know what's going on.  Messages arrive through my wife..... 

What is also funny is how some of you still love to group Ex- Witnesses together as if we are an army fighting against the CCJW. Some of us actually want the CCJW to continue. I'm personally looking forward to the outcome in a few years time, if God allows me to live that long. The CSA will be sorted out in probably 3 to 5 years. The True Anointed will be in place by the end of 5 years (in my opinion), but whether they will be in the CCJW or else where remains to be seen. The world conditions will of course be much worse by then and I think people will seriously begin to reason on whether God exists and if such a God will rescue mankind.

At the moment life is too easy for many of us. We can sit on here and burble, in our warm homes whilst munching on chocolate biscuits. I don't think the Apostle Paul or others had it that easy. No, things need to get gritty. So I do hope the CCJW continues, although I may never be part of it again. But i haven't completely shut that door and maybe many other Ex JWs haven't shut that door either. 

God will use any individual He wants and whatever group of people He wants to. Maybe some of you should stop being so anti Ex JWs. If you feel Ex jWs are your enemies then didn't Jesus say to love your enemies. 

@Tom Henry  " Are we to tell God he has made a "poor" choice of those that decided to pick up the mantle from dead Christianity, that was only awakened by the reformers? "

What makes you think God had anything to do with it ?  If it had been God's choice then those men would not have 'run ahead' and chose to use their own understanding, thereby making so many mistakes.

Quote " Were we supposed to STOP all bible knowledge in the 16th century even though we have a more powerful understanding of scripture today? "

The GB and CCJW do NOT have a 'more powerful understanding of scripture today' 

They are fumbling in the dark with 8 million people lives hanging in the balance.  

Quote "Are we uplifting other peoples spirituality or is it simpler to sway them to condemnation?"

JWs and Bible students are not being lifted spiritually. They are being weighed down with burdens from the GB down to the Elders. They are not being taught truth because the GB and the Writing department do not have truth. NO One in the CCJW is inspired of God's Holy spirit. They are the 'blind leading the blind'.

The Anointed are not doing the job they were anointed to do. There is no spiritual guidance right now. 

You have your own understanding, but others have their own understanding. I am wise enough to know that i do not have spiritual guidance or understanding.