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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    He could not have chosen a better description. Per that list of key tenets (doctrines, core beliefs) listed on the FAQ of the website, and cited by Anna, they are all of them found in only one place. 
    Why are they not found in many places? Because if there were ever any guardians of those places, they long ago fell fast asleep. Only in one place have the doctrines been guarded. Everywhere else they dissipated to the four winds or thieves made off with them.
    Every time someone flushes a toilet in Bethel it is a doctrine for you. It is impossible to be so obtuse unless it is deliberate. Everyone but you knows that if your picnic gets rained out because you read the weather wrong, it does not take away from the overall success of your life goals and purposes.
  2. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    Apologize, but we have to make clear distinction between this two celebration. Christmas vs Jesus Birthday celebration. Christmas is one wrong way full with traditions and folklore of that how people are convinced that they giving honor to Jesus. JW members missed opportunity to "show the world" what can be better or proper way to doing so.   
    Nowhere in its text does the Bible show that celebrating a birthday is wrong or pagan. 
    Has having more than one wife ever been a pagan custom? Jewish law in the Bible says no, but it was and became a Jewish custom legitimized by decrees. How would JW members declare today what polygamy is? A pagan custom or simply a social norm of a nation and tradition?
    Is celebrating a birthday "more dangerous and bigger evil" than having more women or vice versa?  
  3. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Dmitar in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    I think it has been proven that God's name is not Jehovah. Even when Rutherford started the JW thing they actually believed that God's name was Yahweh, but because Jehovah was 'well known' at the time, that was what they used. Yehovah may be closer but in fact no one really knows.
    But totally disobey Jesus' words about baptism. 
    The 1914 teaching cannot be proven and is probably untrue.  All authority was given to Jesus in 33 C.E. unless you wish to call Christ a liar. 
    Re-read your own words and stop and think right there.  through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Not through the JW Org.
    But the Org teaches that, A. One has to get baptised into the ORG, B. One has to be a baptised JW to be saved.
    The JW way is not God's or Christ's way. The instruction from Jesus was to to Baptise in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 
    This idea that they will rule from heaven is not definite. One scripture seems to be able to be translated as either 'over the earth' or 'on the earth'.  And there is something about Gog / Magog surrounding the Camp of the Holy Ones, which would be on Earth ? As I don't pretend to fully understand this, i will keep an open mind on it. 
    I like this.  This is truthful. @Arauna thinks humans are 'most important' or that was how she commented to me. But this shows truth in that the issue is more about the spirit realm than about us. There would be no point cleansing the Earth if Satan and his demons still 'ruled over it'. 
    This could lead to a large debate .  Most things that JWs 'see' are material things. Especially in America with Warrick and Ramapo. And JWs look to the GB as God's mouthpiece F&DS. All reading material comes from this GB and their helpers, some of whom are not even Anointed ones. The whole JW movement is based on what is seen with physical eyes. Not much room is left for real faith. 
    This is a funny one. Instruction comes from the GB via talks and the Watchtower mag. So beliefs clarified are taught to the congregations. That actually means that the congregation is TOLD what to believe. However personal Bible reading is encouraged AS LONG AS a congregant does not find reason to disagree with the GB's instruction on what to believe. 
    Um, yes, but only if you do it to the GB's set of rules. The GB had it written in the Watchtower that members of the Anointed would 'not want to meet together to pray or to study God's word' and, if they did meet together ' they would be working against the Holy Spirit'
    Congregants don't actually do much of this. Especially since the 'trolly/cart' work started. What congregants do is act as puppets for the GB. To stand at a cart offering the written word of the GB is not preaching the Good News. Also offering Watchtower mags is not preaching the Good News, it is distributing the GB's written words. 
    This is of course a complete lie. The Elders are the clergy class and prove it in Court rooms around the world.  
    This is another lie. The beard thing being one issue. Dress code being another. Birthdays another. And as a personal thing I was totally embarrassed by an Elder at my daughter's wedding, when this Elder put his hand over my glass and told me, in front of everyone, that I was NOT ALLOWED to drink a toast to my daughter and her new husband. 
    This is another issue which was the teaching of MEN, not of GOD. @JW Insider has raised this point. 
    Not much respect in Australia when asked to join the compensation scheme. Not much respect in the UK when the Charity Commission first asked for CSA documents. 
    Unless it is someone that has left the JW Org of course. Or even a young person that was baptised too young and then commits sin. Jesus also said 'to love your enemy'. But JWs show hatred to ex JWs and to anyone that is disfellowshipped, and we know that people are d/fed for the wrong reasons some times. But all are shunned and despised. And the CSA / Pedophile problem and mistreatment of Victims shows the hypocrisy here.
    Core teachings. Hypocrisy at it's best. The whole thing just proves the dishonesty and lies of the Governing Body and others involved in writing it, and in pretending it is true.
     
  4. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I am reminded of how someone was described as having suffered an injury causing “permanent deafness,” and one commentator said, ‘Well, it’s a little too soon to tell.”
    So it is with those who would pronounce 1914 dead and buried. It’s a little too soon to tell.
  5. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I want to agree, I wish I could agree, but God wouldn’t have used Russell and is not using the Watchtower simply because of the fact they both are direct opposers of the apostle Paul’s warning to announce the Day of the Lord began before the man of lawlessness was revealed.
    Paul warned:
    “Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.” 2 Thessalonians 2:2
    The Watchtower and Russell are the opposers of Paul who say it began:
    “BACK in 1914, Jesus was installed as King of God’s Kingdom, and the Lord’s day began." - w88 10/15 pp. 15-20
    Paul says don’t believe them. Who are we going to believe, the Watchtower, Russell, uninspired men?…or the inspired apostle Paul?
    The Watchtower wants us to believe that the man of lawlessness is Christendom, but that is impossible because Paul said the man of lawlessness sits in the temple of God.
    “Don’t be fooled by what they say [the Watchtower and Russell]. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
    We know the temple of God are the anointed, not Christendom.
    “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?” 1 Corinthians 3:16
    So unless Christendom is somehow filled with Gods anointed ones that make up Gods temple, there’s only one place the man of lawlessness can possibly be sitting right now…
    1914 is Satans game.
    “This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs [1914, world war 1, 2] and miracles.,” 2 Thessalonians 2:9
    Satans got them by the throat. The whole Watchtower societies existence is contingent upon 1914 being true, but the fact is, the whole entire organization of Jehovahs witnesses, is a lie.
    “For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” 2 Thessalonians 2:11
    If God we’re using the watchtower, he would be supporting the man of lawlessness, Satans man.
  6. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    Not that it should matter too much to anyone here, but just to get a discussion started, I will happily state that I am in 100% agreement with all the scriptures in this list. And am in 100% agreement with at least 990 of the 997 words (counted by copying the content portion of this to https://wordcounter.net/).
    I found only 3 things I'd take a small issue with:
    "Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that" I agree with this point, but I'm embarrassed that such an important list (for our purposes) has the name and opinion of a "secular" professor in it. Jason DeBuhn's name has been on this list since at least 2015 and has never been removed. It's inconsistent with the rest of the list, which otherwise only highlights a simple Bible basis, not some scholar. "A person’s works prove that his faith is alive." This isn't necessarily true. A person can have works that look like they are motivated by faith, but are motivated by self-righteousness, a competitive spirit, a desire to earn salvation and be rewarded accordingly, blindly following men, etc., just to mention some common examples.   (Matthew 7:22) . . .Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not . . . perform many powerful works in your name?’ "He began ruling in 1914." Hmmm. I've probably said before that I can't find this one in the Bible. (And it's just about the only sentence that has no scripture to back it up.)  I wish it had said: "We believe Jesus is now ruling invisibly from heaven." Or, "We believe that we now live in a time when Jesus, from his heavenly throne, is giving special attention to matters of the Kingdom on earth." In addition to those, there are a couple of other things, much less important to me, that I could see changing in the future, and the change wouldn't cause a problem or inconsistency either way. For example, I could see the possibility that the "144,000" is a symbolic number, and might even represent the full number of natural Jewish Christians as easily as it could represent the full number of spiritual Jews. But the list explicitly allows for some expressions to be interpreted symbolically, anyway, so it wouldn't bother me either way to use the expression, "The 144,000 will rule in heaven."  ["We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally.—Revelation 1:1. "]
    It's also possible that "blood" in Acts 15 is a symbol for "bloodguilt," such as murder, manslaughter, war, etc., just as "idols" can include things like "gluttony" (Phil 3:19) "greediness" (Col 3:5) and even "pleasing men" (Eph 6:6,7; Gal 1:10)  Personally, for my own conscience, I'm fine with the idea that abstaining from blood transfusions is one way that we abstain from blood. But there's a chance that we as individuals and as an organization should not be imposing this as a rule on the Bible-trained consciences of others.
    That idea might already be covered, even if unintentionally, by the very nice idea expressed here: "Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience."
    Outside of those few comments, I would be willing to die for the other 990 words out of the 997.
  7. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    Speaking of names and opinions, perhaps the authors of this text should list the accompanying comments of each of the GB members, in the list of "core beliefs / doctrines". Why? Because their names and accompanying comments would give “credibility” to every essential point of belief. After all, they are the “guardians of the doctrine,” as Mr. Jackson told the ARC. “Guardians of doctrines” have “power,” since 1919, to shape doctrines and modify them as needed. And that is their practice to this day. Which will continue in the future, as you noticed very well.
    Such an even clearer role (more clearly visible to the ordinary believer) for the FDS aka GB as the Main Ecclesiastical Governing Body*, among other things, would have the effect of minimizing the role of the individual who, due to his "immature" biblical conscience and "weak" theocratic knowledge, could put in question his own future and exercise bad influence on the “spirituality” of other members.
    “Guardians of doctrine” have in the past, for example, celebrated Christ’s birthday. Then they decided it was a pagan custom. How could this become a pagan custom, when the angels in heaven sang and rejoiced at the moment of Jesus ’birth? Yes, no child born into JW families will become a future “king”. But JW parents can celebrate a child’s birth with faith and hope that it is their child who will become a good human (or at least a future member of the JW church - a little irony).
    The "guardians of the doctrine" support the division into clergy and laity. They have confirmed this with statements before the courts, and they confirm this with the practice in assemblies around the world. They are declaratively against it and this teaching is not on the list of "core doctrines", but it is widely used in the daily practice of religion. It is indeed manipulative of GB to oppose the clergy-laity relationship and this they support by biblical passages and quotations and interpretations of those same passages. On the other hand, they makes abundant use of the same form/model that they names and declares unbiblical.
    I think many of you will agree that the List of “core doctrines” that is offered is neither accurate nor complete.
    *Cobb v. Brede (California Superior Court, San Mateo County February 22, 2012) ("I am general counsel for the National Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses out of Brooklyn, New York. ... We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church").
    California’s appeals court provides a generally accurate description of the Jehovah’s Witnesses hierarchy. The relevant upshot is that, “[e]lders are the highest authority at the congregational level,” and, thus, are the Jehovah’s Witnesses equivalent of Roman Catholic priests.5 In order to be appointed an elder, a person must first be a ministerial servant in IAN S. MILLICAN 3 ESTABLISHING DUTY IN CHILD SEX ABUSE CASES AGAINST THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BY IAN S. MILLICAN 2. ESTABLISHING DUTY IN CHILD SEX ABUSE CASES AGAINST THE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES 4. GOING REMOTE: 2021 EMERGING TRENDS FOR MEDICAL MALPRACTICE LITIGATION 5. ROBINS KAPLAN FILES INJECTAFER CASE 6. NEWS 7. RECOGNITION AND CASE RESULTS good standing.6 Top-down, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or, “Watchtower,” as the parent-organization is known, is controlled by the Governing Body of eight elders, essentially the board of directors for Watchtower.7 - https://www.robinskaplan.com/-/media/pdfs/newsletters/robins-kaplan-justice-report-winter-2021.pdf?la=en&hash=70455F1B07EC6E66C42EB1DB8E42163E
    Here, Petitioner Watchtower sought to protect confidential, intra-faith communications among clergy (elders) regarding Bible-based religious appointment processes, some of which included congregants’ penitential confessions and all of which impacted privacy rights of non-parties..............
    ...........J.W. asserted she requested Watchtower produce various documents, and Watchtower refused citing the clergy-penitent privilege. - https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-40/104104/20190625174601258_288149_Petition.pdf
     
  8. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    I haven't blocked you. I posted the core beliefs HERE
    But I will list them here too, since this a relevant topic here.
    God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.—Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17.
    Bible. We recognize the Bible as God’s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament.” Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses built “their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.” *
    While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally.—Revelation 1:1.
    Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28.
    The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God’s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.
    Jesus is the King of God’s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914.—Revelation 11:15.
    Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person’s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned—it comes through “the undeserved kindness of God.”—Galatians 2:16, 21.
    Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people—144,000—will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom.—Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.
    Earth. God created the earth to be mankind’s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Psalm 37:11, 34.
    Evil and suffering. These began when one of God’s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called “Satan” and “Devil,” persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever.
    Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment.
    God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God’s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection.—Revelation 20:14, 15.
    Family. We adhere to God’s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed.—Ephesians 5:22–6:1.
    Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following:
    Praying to God.—Philippians 4:6.
    Reading and studying the Bible.—Psalm 1:1-3.
    Meditating on what we learn from the Bible.—Psalm 77:12.
    Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage fellow Witnesses and others.—Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25.
    Preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.”—Matthew 24:14.
    Helping those in need.—James 2:14-17.
    Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work.—Psalm 127:1.
    Sharing in disaster relief.—Acts 11:27-30.
    Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations.
    The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.—Matthew 24:45.
    Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience.—Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.
    Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God’s laws.—Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29.
    Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” He also said that Christians “are no part of the world.” (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to “work what is good toward all,” yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters.—Romans 14:12.
    https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/
     
  9. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Very well, go back to kicking against the goads and embrace unhappiness. Did I not give you my all with kindness and respect? Sheesh.
    It is impossible for you to be unclear on this point—it has been clarified by several people on several occasions, and it doesn’t even have be clarified. It is simply a matter of common sense. I go back to by original thesis that you are just being disingenuous 
    It reminds me of a scene from Tom Irregardless and Me, in which my old pioneer partner gone bad, Vic Vomodog, summons me to his deathbed:
    “My old friend Vic Vomodog! We used to pull together shoulder to shoulder in the work! How I regretted having cut him off when he’d changed sides. How judgmental I’d been! If only I could have another chance! His pained eyes met mine from his hospital bed. With trembling hand, he beckoned me close. I strained to catch his last words:
    “‘There’s two, Tommy. That Watchtower you study? It’s not the same as what the public reads. You’re being indoctrinated, buddy. When are you going to wake up? They’re different.’
    “Oh, for crying out loud! I rolled my eyes and he died. Of course they’re different! When Stephen Hawking has his science chums over, do you think they crack open their Physics 101 college textbooks?”
    I swear there are some lunatics like this. Their last dying breath they will use to disparage Jehovah’s organization.
  10. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    What exactly are the “fundamental doctrines” for JW members?
    Are they clearly visible and enumerated, in the Bible as a whole text? Or are these specific teachings of Jesus Christ? Or are these important doctrines that are an integral part of the JW religion?
    If something is called fundamental, then there may be a few things, maybe five, maybe ten, that are the basis for everything else. As far as I can remember, Jesus said quite clearly what is most important in the religious life of a believer, that is, in the "religion" he promoted. He said, Love God and love people the same way.
    The very thesis you are trying to advocate, and that is, that core doctrines are correct, automatically means that you have doctrines that are not fundamental. And what’s worse, that these unimportant doctrines aren’t accurate, they’re wrong, maybe even false. So where will that take you? Some of you are concerned with ratios, so they say most doctrines are correct and a minority are not. Or vice versa.
    How many fundamental doctrines are there in the teachings of Jesus? How many less important doctrines are there in the teachings of Jesus? How many subsequently interpreted teachings or “beliefs clarified” are there in Jesus ’teaching? Why has WTJWorg GB put itself in a situation of multiplying teachings that it subsequently revises, instead of sticking solely to “core doctrines” whose source is Jesus and not some people in the Organization? Why don't JW members recognize Jesus' legacy, but are willing to repeatedly follow people who have proven to be generators, promoters, and stewards of wrong/false teachings?
    And if we are already talking about the ratios of accuracy and inaccuracy, truth and falsehood in the religious and administrative doctrine of the Organization, then you really need to worry about yourself and your part in promoting inaccurate and incorrect, false interpretations and teachings as you preach your beliefs to other people. Reminder for illustration: Does the Organization have a division into priests and lay people? If you say no then you are not telling the truth. And another important question: Is this doctrine about priests and lay people a “core doctrine” or not?
    Given the new “overlapping generation” interpretation you will not die in this “system of things” but in some other/future system, and whether you will die old and content depends only on you as individuals.
    But I do hope how "overlapping generation" is not part of your "core doctrine".   
  11. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    The Watchtower study for this weekend is so encouraging. It shows that Jehovah forgives all who worship him.  We must not condemn ourselves for what we are because the ransom covers it. Many Witnesses have sinned and often feel unworthy because of it .....but it encourages all to only focus on today and the future.  Forget the past.  It it what you do from now on which will define your future. 
    The slave have taught us all the core teachings we need to get into the new system. They are imperfect humans and made mistakes, but they too, they need to only focus on the present and the future.  It is their relationship with Jehovah at this moment and the future which defines them - not the past. 
     
  12. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Are you sure this is not a matter of “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Kicking against the goads makes it hard for you?”
    Seriously. I respect you for saying this, for many unhappy people will nonetheless maintain that they are happy, I think yielding to peer pressure that would equate being unhappy with being a loser. When you read relatively high percentages of those who say they are overall happy AND relatively high percentages of those who say they are consumed with anxiety, stress, and depression, to the point of medical treatment, you know something is amiss.
    Nor would I ever suggest that all of Jehovah’s people are happy in their present life—all creation is sighing and groaning, is the way Paul puts it—but they get by with what humanists would regard as “cheating,” keeping their gaze on the things above instead of the things below, keeping their eye on the prize when tears and pain will pass away, with earth restored to paradise, looking to the resurrection hope, keeping their eye ‘simple’ in the present system, and so forth.
    Of course, the GB encourages that view and builds upon it because the Bible encourages and builds upon it. It is integral to Paul saying he has learned the secret of how to be content regardless of his circumstances, in times of abundance and in times of want.
    Seriously, what are you doing here, running down the GB, making that a significant project in your life? What is the point of it? Are you not kicking against the goads? 
    The core doctrines of JWs all hold up in their eyes. If I recall, you have questioned what the core doctrines are, as though you would include matters of immediate timing among them. I’ve thought you must be disingenuous in the question, for every Witness knows what they are, and for that reason I don’t go there. But maybe you are sincere in the question, having been away so long, and surrounded by those on a crusade to undercut, significantly contributing to it yourself—maybe all that has served to muddy the waters on what any Witness has no problem with, confusing the ‘core doctrines’ with interpretations of just when the end will come.
    Look, everyone knows that looking into the future is not a piece of cake—why keep harping on it? Witnesses are content that the bros taking the lead are doing the best they can, are overall conducting themselves honorably and in fear of God. Most importantly, on matters of advertising and safeguarding the core doctrines, they are doing splendidly. No one else is representing kingdom interests better. Never is it that ALL the core teachings are represented elsewhere, and with the majority of faiths, very few indeed are represented, even none at all. Why do you keep harping on the ones who have succeeded and are succeeding in this? Particularly if you suggest that such a course may lead ones to a place you occupy, a place where you are not very happy and have not been for a long time? What’s the point of it? 
    It may be that you are dissatisfied, not the with 20% (as Arauna puts it) but with the 80% Maybe you think the Bible itself is but the word of men, and that to impute divine inspiration into it is nonsense. It is far easier to understand your critical course in this event. It is far more intellectually honest to acknowledge this as your basis for discontent. If so, these are the matters to grapple with, if that be possible, the 80%, rather than taking shots at the forecasting ability of those taking the lead in the JW organization. 
    Come now, attend to these things if you can. The point is, should we die in this system of things, that we should die “old and satisfied with days.”
  13. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Good analogy. But if you shot yourself in the foot once, would you not be extra careful from then on so you don't shoot yourself in the foot again? I mean if you shot yourself in the foot at least three times after that.....well.....I think you would get called all kinds of names, and most probably everyone would want to take that gun from you! The Generation theory has been expounded on at least three times since that Awake article, and with similar assuredness. It's the assuredness every time that is the problem, not the revision of an opinion. I have nothing against progressive knowledge, and don't expect us to get everything right the first time around, or the second time or third.....however long it takes.
    Except for the fundamental truths, the rest is like a jigsaw puzzle and we are still trying to fit the pieces together, in my opinion we have not put together the whole picture yet, although many think we have. 
    Studying the pure worship book right now reminds me a little of a silly series on Netflix called Manifest (I'm not saying the pure worship book is silly). It is quite entertaining though, and I like watching it. The characters survived a plane incident but landed 5 years later. Now some of the main characters get "callings" which are usually very vague (like a voice saying "save her" ) and they have no idea what it means. They get some really obscure clues and have to figure it out. Eventually after a series of misinterpretations they get it right by saving the right person. We are trying to interpret Ezekiels prophecy, and I don't think we will really know if we got it all right until  after Armageddon. The holy spirit can keep giving us clues, but we may misinterpret them, and we have misinterpreted them in the past, we just keep moving forward, in the right direction hopefully. My main disappointment is not the mistakes, but stating as fact what are mere interpretations and opinions......
  14. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    You sound like a bully in a schoolyard, Tom.  
  15. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Yeah, what about that @Witness? Do you believe in any of the core teachings? Which ones & which ones not?
    Imagine! A person should be one this platform ceaselessly for 5 years and it should be necessary to ask her that.
  16. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Are you calling all the core teachings such as Jehovah's name, mortality of the soul, Babylon the great, political neutrality and much more ... untrustworthy?    You again paint with a very broad brush and use a judgmental measuring stick...... 
     again..... hate-OCD.  You never disappoint. Always revert back to the hate MO.
  17. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Pudgy in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    ...which brings up "DOGCOIN".
    Sorta like "BitCoin", but with a happy Puppy on the face of each coin!
    If you invest now at $1.00 per coin, each one printed on the face of a dog biscuit that tastes like cardboard, it will quickly grow to be worth THOUSANDS of times that!
    The potential is infinite and everlasting!
    ...after all ... If Everyone in the banking and investment community believes in "BitCoin", you can believe in "DOGCOIN"!
     
    ....wherever fine Pet Supplies are sold.
  18. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Pudgy in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    I am not looking for perfection. I would not have judged Jesus.
    Your premises are flawed, and painted with the wrong color with an overly broad brush.
    Until the ONE SENTENCE (if memory serves) in the February 2017 Watchtower, the leadership of the Society was quite content to LET, by inference HEAVILY implied and repeated over, and over, and over ........ and over and over and over ... that they WERE inspired and infallible., and make such presumptuous and cringe worthy (paraphrased) statements as "Jehovah and Christ Jesus trusts us, so therefore you can trust us"
    .... makes me want to hold my hand tightly over my wallet.
     
     
    ... uh ... if I had a wallet .....
  19. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Jesus expects us to desire truth, since truth contains eternal life.  Why else would he encourage us to seek and ask for it, as for hid treasure?  Matt 7:7,8
     Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him."  John 7:16-18
    Each wrong teaching, wrong doctrine of Wt's leadership proves they speak "on their own"...for their own personal glory.  A "man of truth", a man whose words are not falsehoods/ever changing teachings, would speak in harmony with Christ's truths.  Their teachings would remain.
    My son, if you accept my words
        and store up my commands within you,
    2 turning your ear to wisdom
        and applying your heart to understanding—
    3 indeed, if you call out for insight
        and cry aloud for understanding,
    4 and if you look for it as for silver
        and search for it as for hidden treasure,
    5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
        and find the knowledge of God.
    6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
        from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
    7 He holds success in store for the upright,
        he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
    8 for he guards the course of the just
        and protects the way of his faithful ones.  Proverbs 2
     
  20. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Ok, I haven't yet read the rest of your comment but this, in my opinion, needs explaining more clearly please.
    Those first five words. Who gives that directive ? and who made that statement ? 
  21. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Don't tell @TrueTomHarley, he doesn't seem to believe God or Christ can do anything. 
    For my part i think that leap you are looking for will come from the True Anointed after 'certain things have happened' which i am not allowed to write about for fear of ................... 
  22. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    This scripture concerns the Anointed not the earthly class. It is only the True Anointed that have the 'mind of Christ' because they have been anointed as part of the 'body of Christ'. 
  23. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    But the past gives a good or bad reference for the ones that are taking the Lead and for the W/t / Org generally.
    Remember that your GB make a point of saying that God and Christ trust them. So anyone wishing to be part of such an Org should look at the past 'record of achievements' of the GB / Leaders / Org. And the past records are not a good reference. 
    You make reference to the things I was taught as a JW. Well I was taught about the 7,000 year creative days. The 6,000 years of humans life, then the 1,000 year reign of Christ. I was taught that the JW / W/t Leaders were inspired of God's Holy Spirit.  My studying was from JW books, more than from God's written word, because that is how so called Bible studies were done, and probably still are. But most of those books are now considered 'old light', a good excuse for lies.
    In fact I would think that most of what I was taught is now proven to be lies. The foundation of my confidence in the Org has gone, and has been replaced with........... I don't know. Replaced with the 'overlapping generations' and other excuses. 
    So when I found out about the massive amount of CSA / Pedophilia in the Org earthwide, and the way it was / is being mishandled, it was just the tipping point for me to know that neither God nor Christ approve of the GB or the org. 
    I agree with you that God / Christ may have used Russell's work and they may also have used / be using the work of the Watchtower / JW Org. But I don't think that either God or Christ approved of Russell or approve of the W/t / Org.
    A bit like God used the Egyptians to punish His people, and God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem in 70 C.E. but God didn't exactly approve of the Romans or Egyptians. So maybe this 'leap' you mention will not be from the W/t or Org, or maybe it will be a cleansing of them. But i think there is a need to remember that God has used punishment for disobedience in the past. 
  24. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    You don't have to be concerned. Russell himself is not important to me at all. But I take the current doctrines seriously. We are to pay attention to ourselves and to our doctrines according to the Bible.  And if we truly take the doctrines seriously, we will be noble-minded and question them. Otherwise we are merely following men. 
    (1 Timothy 4:15, 16) 15 Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, . . . 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things. . .
    One of those current teachings is that Russell and his associates embarked on a clean-up and restoration work that was actually prophesied in the Bible in Malachi 3. We are to teach that the work Russell was involved in and wrote about actually got the attention of Jesus Christ around the year 1914. That doctrine has huge implications. If true, it means that we can learn something more about the "mind of Christ" in our own time by looking at what Jesus looked at, to see if we can identify what Jesus must have seen.
    (1 Corinthians 2:15-16)  However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
    For me, if I didn't look into and really "ponder" this doctrine, it would mean that I don't really care to know something that could perhaps be easily knowable about the mind of Christ.
    And the penultimate upshot of what I have discovered is that Russell was generally a careful student of the Bible on every single Bible topic except chronology. On chronology Russell got absolutely no date and therefore no prediction right. But this should be as expected, based on Jesus' words in Matthew 24 (the whole chapter) and Acts 1:6-8.
    Not even the angels could, who had (perhaps) billions of years of experience knowing more about the mind and activities of Jehovah and Jesus. So how could a sinful man like Russell expect to know? What is left, after the failed chronology, is a combination of doctrinal teachings that I have not seen in that particular combination among any other group of Christians. Perhaps it exists, and perhaps someone will point it out if it does. I prefer to associate with a group related in the faith on that particular combination. I can overlook the chronology.
    But I still think his work was ultimately blessed by attracting people who were (mostly) first attracted by the dates and the supposed (but false) knowledge about the chronology, yet had to learn the hard way that Jesus was correct about chronology. Those who stay, after that chronology dross gets filtered by disappointment, are now typically more honest-hearted, and are now staying for the good news of the kingdom itself, staying for the joy of brotherhood, the love, and encouraging one another to hang in their for the more important reasons. If you don't see love in the brotherhood for the "right" reasons, I'm not going to convince you.
    You and I are both in the habit of finding straws (faults) in the eyes of the organization, but you seem anxious to grasp at any straw and see everything from only the fault-finding side. I believe I see a bigger picture here. There was probably a time when you did, too. Surely it wasn't just the wrong things that attracted you to stay in the first place.
    Up to there I probably could survive Tom's judicial hearing intact. But the actual ultimate upshot (not the penultimate) of what I have learned is that "Russell and Associates" could not have actually been the forerunner of a restored and cleansed organization in 1919. That doesn't mean that Jehovah didn't make use of the progress made. Jehovah would be pleased with people declaring the good news about a kingdom that will restore a paradise and bring all creation back into Jehovah's original purpose. And the brotherhood has promoted the correction of some of the most major confusing and even God-dishonoring doctrines, taught by probably 95% of Christendom.
    I would not look for a specific "inflection point" that identified any organization as the true religion. I just see progress. Russell's day saw it. And just as we claim, "1918 to 1919" saw good progress. But perhaps 1919 progress was less important in that year than, say, "1878 to 1879" or "1881 to 1882" or "1909 to 1910" or "1929 to 1930" and "1941 to 1942" and "2000 to 2001."
    Perhaps a specific "leap of progress" hasn't even happened yet, but I continue to expect more of our brotherhood in the future. I think that we currently look back on our own history much more often than necessary. 
    (Luke 9:62) .62 Jesus said to him: “No man who has put his hand to a plow and looks at the things behind is well-suited for the Kingdom of God.”
    One of the reasons I like to share what I find when I "ponder" our current teachings about the WTS past, is to point out that looking to the past doesn't get us anywhere. We have more and better reasons to look to the future.
    On your points about Rutherford, I agree that Russell was not a JW in any modern sense. Rutherford was hardly ever one either. But Rutherford was a Bible Student. Rutherford definitely apostasized from Russell's Bible Students, especially from 1928 to 1930. Then again, Russell himself apostasized from the larger Rochester group that his Allegheny/Pittsburgh group had once joined:
    *** w55 1/1 pp. 7-8 Part 1—Early Voices (1870-1878) ***
    As a result the Pittsburgh Bible group of nearly thirty decided to affiliate with the Rochester group slightly larger in number. Russell became a joint editor along with Barbour for The Herald of the Morning. The Pittsburgh group on Russell’s initiative agreed to finance a small printing place in Rochester for the joint printing undertakings. . . . . After two years of affiliation a testing occurred that brought about a parting of the ways. . . . Months of argument ensued in publishing articles in the Herald pro and con on the ransom issue. Finally the Pittsburgh Bible group withdrew association from the Barbour group to undertake a separate Bible publishing work. Many of the Rochester group sided in with Russell and his associates on the ransom issue and they too came over to the Pittsburgh association.
  25. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?   
    One would think a Space Merchant would be the very first commenter on a thread dealing with aliens, rather than holding off to page 3.
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