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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Conscience individual and collective   
    Do you enjoy having such power to discipline  all JWs?  Do you realize you have been given power by men to judge the anointed royal priesthood/"Israel"/Temple/dwelling of God? (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22.  Is this power originating from God?  
    2 Thess 2:1-4 - "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 
    Next time you pass the memorial emblems to an anointed one who cannot join with other anointed to study God's word together, I hope you think about this.  It is a control issue, and you are a part of it as an elder. (Rev 13:5-8,11,12,15)  You also have the power to tell someone they are not anointed and cannot partake.   Jesus and his disciples that formed the foundation of the Temple of God, did not have those not invited to his supper, passing the emblems to them. 
    Who really should receive discipline for not following God's word?  
    "But you and your sons with you shall attend to your priesthood for everything that concerns the altar and inside the veil, and you are to perform service. I am giving you the priesthood as a service that is a gift, and the unauthorized person who comes near shall be put to death."  Num 18:7
    "But no one is to enter the house of the LORD except the priests and the ministering Levites; they may enter, for they are holy. And all the people are to keep the command of the LORD." 2 Chron 23:6
    'This is what the Lord GOD says: "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary."  Ezek 44:9
    Have the elders entered God's sanctuary?  Yes, they have the authority to "represent the royal priesthood".  But, there is no scripture that allows for "uncircumcised" men to act as God's priests. Thus, the Temple in the anointed are slandered, silenced and judged.
    "If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."  1 Cor 3:17
    Rev 11:1,2 -  "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."  
  2. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Conscience individual and collective   
    The consequence of a spiritual "death", as one ex-elder put it recently, in a video I watched?  (John 16:2)
    You must not be up-to-date with the old light on disfellowshipping.
     
     

  3. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in Conscience individual and collective   
    Musing more....
    One of the things I noticed as an outside observer prior to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses was the business of disfellowshipping and reinstatement. I saw both of these things as an atheist observing.
    It struck me at the time as highly unusual. I'd read of excommunication as a Catholic, however I've never knew anyone who was ever disciplined in this way, though it's supposedly on the books.
    It struck me that perhaps this was the reason I felt comfortable around these people as a group and in general. There were actual consequences for misbehavior. One could hardly imagine any consequences as a Catholic. No one even made you go to confession, never mind you never had to do anything except repeat "Hail Mary's" and "Our Fathers" to get forgiven (which had never at all been convincing to me).
    No, even now it strikes me as a very important thing, this business of discipline.
    I have to admit that I have a hard time w/the business of creating loyalty oaths and pledges and if someone won't burn a pinch of incense to an organization then they are persona non gratis...also engaging in thought-policing - that's also wrong.
    Now chronically arguing and pushing ideas and engaging in stirring up contentions in the congregation would certainly merit some attention. Maybe not DF'ing, but certainly addressing these things, but always w/a view to reclaiming people, not forcing people to knuckle under. Ultimately, people who don't want to deal w/the discipline and mental regulating of the Bible will leave. Same reason some people who are obese don't want to hang out at the gym.
  4. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Conscience individual and collective   
    Well—they are horrible scrappers, those two.
  5. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Conscience individual and collective   
    There is scarcely anyone on the planet that does not have one of these posh phones these day.
  6. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Pudgy in Conscience individual and collective   
    The problem is not the act of disfellowshipping. The problems are, the reasons for disfellowshipping, and that scripture say to take it before the Congregation, before disfellowshipping. BUT the Elders act in secret, behind closed doors and do not give the congregation true reasons for disfellowshipping someone. 
  7. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    So this destroys the idea of 'collective conscience'.   And it proves the idea of individual conscience. 
  8. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    So he arrived at Derʹbe and also at Lysʹtra.+ And a disciple named Timothy+ was there, the son of a believing Jewish woman but of a Greek father, 2  and he was well-reported-on by the brothers in Lysʹtra and I·coʹni·um. 3  Paul expressed the desire for Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews in those places,+ for they all knew that his father was a Greek. - Acts 16
    What happened there? Circumcision because of a question of conscience? Whose conscience? Timothy's conscience or Paul's? Because of morals? Because of standards? Or did it all happen because of TRADITION and Jewish morals and standards written and required by Jewish Law? 
    Is it Paul’s action a consequence (the pressure) of “collective consciousness” (or conscience, to interpret xero), so he too fell under the influence of the "collective conscience" and went against own conscience, even although he preached that circumcision is “nothing”? Was it Paul’s moment of weakness, was he ignoring one’s own conscience, or fearing of social condemnation, etc?
    What/which "collective conscience" did he considered and respected? From First Christian congregation  or from Old Jewish congregation?
  9. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    Please, so the difference is obvious. These are just two things:
    1) Ideological / religious differences
    and/or
    2) prejudices.
    It has nothing to do with the fundamental function of conscience.
  10. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in Conscience individual and collective   
    But what you are doing here is, putting your trust in 'men'.  It is so funny how JWs will deny somethings 'men' say, but happily follow other things that 'men' say when it serves their purpose.  
  11. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in Conscience individual and collective   
    More musing....
    Conscience is like an internal scale too but it's one that weighs things in accordance with its own experiences.
    I remember one class I took by Dr. Albrecht, a neurology professor whose specialization was in the eye. It was a basic class, but one thing that stood out  that I remember from the class was the rods vs cones of the human visual system. He said our eyes have scales which can weigh elephants and bees wings. The cones weigh elephants and the rods weigh bees wings. It's a simple illustration. There are people like my grandfather who were color blind, lacking any cones whatsoever. It turns out this aided him as a quality control engineer as his eyes were very sensitive to shades, more so than a normal person.
    A person's conscience might be like these scales in some way. Some people missing nuance and seeing little difference between one thing and another. "All religions are the same" they might say (and believe). Another person's conscience might see a myriad of differences and perhaps so many differences (that like a character in a Jorge Louis Borges story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funes_the_Memorious I remember who couldn't recognize a dog as the same dog because the angle of attack/reflection of light off the dog and its movement made it perpetually different) he simply can't even recognize a religion. Why? Because everything seems different.
    When examining a dog, when does what we call a "dog" stop being a dog?
    We have a fingerprint of experiences in our minds which make for "dog".
    We do this for all things. So when something troubles our conscience we can do a few things.
    We can re-check and remeasure. "Did I remember to turn the stove off?"
    Maybe the stove is off. Maybe it was on. But we're glad we checked.
    Suppose we go back and the stove is off, but we're still unsettled. Something about the stove is off we think. So perhaps we hire a technician to examine the stove. Is it leaking gas? Is it not heating properly? Does something seem awry? Does anyone else think something might be wrong?
    Maybe we go look at someone else's stove. They seem satisfied with their stove, but not you. You sense something awry with their stove as well. Maybe you argue with them about the stove. Maybe they say "I'm happy w/my stove and I'm sticking with it!". You say "Fine. But don't say I didn't warn you." They respond "Warn me about what? I know my stove isn't the best in the world, but it works for me. It cooks my food and that's all I expect out of it. What do you think a stove is supposed to do?"
    You move on. Perhaps you start studying "Stoves of the World" and "The History of Stoves" and "The Chronology of Stoves in Ancient Babylon"
    You start to think of yourself as an expert in the history of stoves, their genesis and usage throughout time.
    But you yourself have decided that no stove is good enough for you.
    You're going to eat that turkey raw, because no stove is perfect.
    ...then you die of food poisoning....
    *THE END*
    (Again....me musing aloud)
  12. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Conscience individual and collective   
    What do you mean he was misled by sloppy bible teaching? He belonged to a congregation and he deliberately left it. Was there no one there who knew accurate bible teaching? Is there anyone on the planet who does besides you?
    You who live to argue, this has nothing to do with argument. It is almost entirely a matter of heart.
    It’s not our fault, you donkey. We try to work with you door to door because we know that you understand the things that we do not. But you are never available. You are always here arguing, not only with those who hate the faith, but with those who love it.
  13. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    Article has title: The Concept of Collective Consciousness
    I believe it is important to separate meaning in terminology, yet very similar words.
    Consciousness and Conscious vs Conscience
     
    Consciousness and Conscious:
    a) an increasing of concerned awareness
    b) the process of making people understand and be interested in important social or political issues
    c) having mental faculties not dulled by sleep, faintness
    d) perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation 
    e) being concerned or interested
     
    Conscience:
    a) the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good
    b) a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts
    c) the part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego
     
    I agree that we need to have an awareness (consciousness) of our own existence and that there is a conscience in us.
  14. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in Conscience individual and collective   
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/collective-conscience-educational-context-society-saumya-sharma-sam-/
    Collective conscious or collective conscience (French: conscience collective) is the set of shared beliefs, ideas and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society. The term was introduced by the French Émile Durkheim in his Division of Labour in Society in 1893.
  15. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in Conscience individual and collective   
    You ought to google once in a while.
    https://www.thoughtco.com/collective-consciousness-definition-3026118
     
  16. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    I would say that we can talk about individual conscience and different aspects of that phenomenon in a person’s life.
    But it seems to me that there is no “collective conscience”. I do not consider this possible, because a collective can only be a set of individuals with more or less the same thoughts, experiences, common ideas and standards. But this does not constitute a prerequisite for a “collective conscience”. We can only speak of collective manipulation and collective pressure in some circumstances
    What connects individuals in such a group are the reasons and goals of the association. The existence of collective influence or collective pressure on an individual, who is visible and invisible in its manifestation is what certainly exists.
    Reality that some individuals have a conflict with collective standards, morals, ethics, and ideology  proves that every individual within a collective has an individual consciousness and conscience, not a collective one. This proves that individual consciousness and conscience make it a separate individual in collective existence, regardless of how strongly a collective is connected within itself and regardless of the positive or negative influence of the group on the individual.
  17. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Conscience individual and collective   
    Well, it is not exactly as though 4Jah is hanging on my every word.
  18. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in Conscience individual and collective   
    Hmmmm.... I wonder if you would have known ANY of this had you not been contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses....
  19. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from JW Insider in Conscience individual and collective   
    What rubbish. Paul was directly commissioned by Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Paul when Paul was Saul. 
    Acts 9 :4
    4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
  20. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Anna in Conscience individual and collective   
    What rubbish. Paul was directly commissioned by Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Paul when Paul was Saul. 
    Acts 9 :4
    4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
  21. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in Conscience individual and collective   
    Yes scripture sank in and stayed in. It was Watchtower teachings that i threw away because they are lies  
  22. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in Conscience individual and collective   
    What rubbish. Paul was directly commissioned by Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Paul when Paul was Saul. 
    Acts 9 :4
    4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
  23. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Matthew9969 in Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation vicariously liable   
    I don't know why but that reminded me of an elder, by his late 40's he had 2 deceased wives. Six months after his second wife's passing he married an 18 year old girl.
  24. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in Conscience individual and collective   
    The Org once taught that people should serve God because GOD DESERVES TO BE SERVED, not for the gain of everlasting life. 
  25. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in Conscience individual and collective   
    Yes, the Watchtower / JW org relies on MONEY to keep them running. The money comes from dragging in more innocent people that believe the lies about 'Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon'. So those Orgs have to keep pushing the lies that Armageddon is coming in five minutes, so you'd better get baptised in this Org. 
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