Patiently waiting for Truth

JWI - I'm trying to find a way to formulate, by way of illustration or otherwise (the shorter the explanation the better), the dividing line between conscience and scriptural responsibility and actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true and teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true.
You can and do have people in every organization JW/and non JW orgs who cross over the line either deifying conscience or deifying organization. Both of these are wrong and both of these may be done by individuals who are individually or collectively being "faithful" as they see what it means to be faithful.
Granted that imperfection exists in all humans, one would assume this imperfection would find some manifestation in organizations used by Jehovah (some latitude is demanded by this fact scripturally and practically).
So just as we see that there is a difference between allowing something to pass (Jehovah allowing) and causing (Jehovah causing) something to pass there is a difference between Jehovah actively approving of a given idea/interpretation and his allowance of a given idea/interpretation being present among those organizations he is using.
I remember reading the account in the book of Acts about Paul being told by holy spirit how he was to give a witness to Caesar and showed him many things he would suffer, and the delta between the elders in Jerusalem and their particular local agenda and Jehovah's agenda when it came about that Paul was accused of teaching an apostasy from Moses. The elders in Jerusalem in all their wisdom decided to get Paul to take care of two men and their closure of their vows of naziriteship at the temple publicly to dispel this idea. (Never mind that Paul's understanding would still likely have been considered an apostasy "no, you don't get it", Paul might say "I'm not saying it's WRONG to do these things, it's just not required for salvation!"). So the brothers in Jerusalem had one agenda (were they being cowardly, or discreet?), but Jehovah had a different one, because Jehovah could see that this would lead to a riot, Roman soldiers getting involved and then Paul appealing on the basis of his Roman citizenship to Caesar, thus fulfilling the dictates of Jehovah's will.
So this scriptural account, and there are others which are less proximate in my mind which might be used could be used as an example of Jehovah's earthly organization imagining one thing to be the thing which is important, but Jehovah had something else in mind. (It could also be an inducement to be less dogmatic)
***Again I'm just thinking aloud and using this thread to keep track****
 
 

I appreciated your take on the questions you raised. I have heard ex-Witnesses claim that there is no such thing as a collective conscience or an organizational conscience, and that all of us are therefore completely on our own when we stand individually before the judgment seat. I agree with the Bible statement that we stand alone for judgment, but you have made an excellent point about how all of us will develop morality based on what has been passed down to us and what we get (or even choose to get) from our various environments. But we all have opportunities for further conforming our environment by choosing association with those who will prod us and encourage us in the direction of an ever clearer Bible-trained conscience.
No one can argue that there isn't already a collective conscience that waits for us to absorb it, much of it subconsciously I suspect. But if we accept that, then we should have no problem "artificially" maneuvering our environment to strengthen our conscience. And, of course, many of us have found the environment of the brotherhood of Witnesses to be perfectly suited to the needs of our conscience.
I also agree with Srecko, that to some extent we will probably accept some decisions made by a "collective" conscience that will be seem artificial to us.
(2 Timothy 3:1-5) . . .But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be . . .3 having no natural affection, . . .
Our conscience tells us that we can't turn our back on the physical and psychological needs of family members who might be disfellowshipped. This is a case, as Srecko says, where our own "natural affection" might say we must do one thing, but the collective environment of our congregation tells us to do something else. Perhaps it will not always be right for everyone to respond in exactly the same way the "collective" conscience tells us to. After all:
(James 4:17) 17 Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.
But without the additional training of conscience from the congregation, would we even have stopped to think about the application of Jesus' words about how he came to put a sword on the earth?
(Matthew 10:34-36) . . .Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.
There will be some tension between the two extremes on this topic, but I think that's a good part of what a conscience is for.

Man you need to think outside of the jw box once in a while. Not all priest did horrible things, but since the RCC would not allow the general populace to read the bible, or become literate, some of them used that liberty to do unbiblical things, you need to do some research outside of the watchtower publications dude.

I agree, some professors get paid way to much to be bags of air.

No, I don't see this, at all.
Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
The Bible is explicitly clear that worship belongs only to God.
It is a case of what does "worship", as opposed to "obeisance" or "bowing down" or "honoring" mean?
I understand this to mean that you can bow down, kneel or curtsy to anyone entitled to such a sign of respect and honor. But you would not worship them.
Unfortunately the Greek word proskuneo has been translated in various ways in different Bibles depending on what the translator "deemed appropriate" 
For example in the same Bible (New American Standard Bible): 
Matthew 2:2: "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."
Matthew 8:2 And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord , if You are willing, You can make me clean.
Matthew 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!
Matthew 15:25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord , help me!"
Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him
Matthew 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. etc.
The Darby translation:
Matthew 2:2 Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage.
Matthew 14:33 But those in the ship came and did homage to him, saying, Truly thou art God's Son etc...
 
Mark 15:19:
American Standard Version: And they smote his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him
Good News Translation: They beat him over the head with a stick, spat on him, fell on their knees, and bowed down to him.
King James Version: And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
Duay Rheims Catholic: And they struck his head with a reed: and they did spit on him. And bowing their knees, they adored him
ETC.
Strong's Number: 4352 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin proskuneo from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Proskuneo 6:758,948 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech pros-koo-neh'-o Verb Definition to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank to the Jewish high priests to God to Christ to heavenly beings to demons   NAS Word Usage - Total: 60 bow down 1, bow down before 1, bowed down 1, bowed down before 2, bowing before 1, bowing down 1, prostrated himself before 1, worship 32, worshiped 17, worshipers 1, worshiping 1, worships 1
 
 

If you want to hear my opinion.  
There are two types of conscience. First is Natural conscience (in biblical terminology) given by God. It is obtained by birth and inherited by genetics that began with Adam  and Eve. After birth, a child or in another situation an adult, comes under the influence of family, environment, society and their own choices.
Second is Artificial conscience. For example, JW members have two types of conscience. The first one, natural, from God. The second type of conscience is called in the WTJWorg publication; "Bible-trained conscience." It is an artificially created conscience based on religious-ideological interpretations and doctrines. It has some positive aspects, but not always. For example, not greeting a former member of the Organization creates a certain conflict in the JW member. There is a conflict between two types of conscience: between the Natural Conscience given by God and the Artificially Created Conscience trained in the Organization.

We all think about moral issues all the time. What we think is good and what we think is bad.
We have a conscience. We have a knowledge feedback loop with ourselves. Is this an open system or a closed system and if it's open, what is it open to? If it's closed, what is it closed to?
Now I can't speak to anyone else or their conscience except as a presumption - the presumption that they have one as much as they have a mind. We could go on at length in the manner of Descartes and on down the line to the existential and materialist philosophers as to whether anyone has a mind/or free will. I simply presume it on the basis of my own knowledge feedback loop. When I say "I know" I'm not saying "I know" in any Gettier "True, Justified, Belief" "know" because that would take reams of unnecessary paper. Not only that Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem (as I apply this to knowledge in general) is true in all realms (you'll always be able to "know" things you can't prove from any set of axions(or scriptures)).
So you get born into a culture with a baked-in morality. You get born into a family with a baked-in morality. You are born (infant studies prove) with a sense of right and wrong.
There's history which you have nothing to do with which created the climate into which you and your conscience has been birthed.
Now you exist, and you have a feedback loop with the world and your conscience. You come to understand things like the permanence of objects which don't cease to exist when you stop seeing them. (Later we somehow can't ratchet that up to the conscience's constant awareness when it comes to God).
You interact with the world and your various groups with intersecting circles of implicit or explicit moral ideas and you assent with these or deny these and deal with the consequences to yourself as a result (this could be you simply misjudged reality and got it wrong, or you got censured by the group(s) you're associated with).
I prefer "rewards" over "consequences", but "rewards" indicates I've been informed by some external authority (which I presume exists as in God, or which I see) who will give me "as a reward" the thing I've decided I want in return for a given action or actions.
"Consequences" sound more threat-ish, and yet these are similar. Consequences come as a result of me as an individual doing or saying something and the thing happening like one domino fell intro another. There can, of course be unintended consequences, but that's something else.
So the external world allows me all manner of illusions which I may choose to hold as "true" in my head which may be "false". It's only when the connections between some false idea and a painful consequence (physical or psychological) occurs and I see the one event (me holding a false idea or acting falsely) as directly connected with the pain event that I stop believing the false thing or acting falsely. (I still might, if I feel the cost/benefit ratio is such that I'll deal w/the pain/consequence).
Ideally our sense of morality is tied in with certain egalitarian ideas (we're no better than anyone else, as we're all creations, as a sentient creation something has a certain right to maintain itself and try to exist and thrive, but w/in limits...yada, yada) and most importantly that a Creator exists who is the penultimate judge of all things.
You know where this is going....
Then you have to have the Creator telling us good/bad right/wrong. We need examples and life stories. So we have the Bible.
Bringing it up to the 1st century, and the Christian Congregation we have many accounts which we can read to tell us that nothing was perfect then. (would we expect that today? why?)
Of course we do have arguments as to what organization IS the most Christian on the planet.
This would have to be argued scripturally.
Why talk about organization?
Because organizations necessarily involve themselves w/the individual conscience at some level.
We can argue(and do and should) as to what degree. Guess what? They did in the 1st century. We can "get in trouble" and not actually "be in trouble" w/Jehovah by this arguing, but there has to be balance and there should be (and was in the 1st century...unless Demas and others who split were "faithful" and just went on to live their lives...maybe so, maybe not).
We have to expect that there's going to be a "middle ground" which makes everyone less than comfortable in the Christian Congregation. But, if we refuse to be a part of organization, how can we expect to prosper? We never see Jehovah NOT use organization or recommend scripturally that someone should go it alone.
So where ever you might be you're going to have to choose.
Don't want other people influencing you by telling you things you'd rather not hear, telling you maybe you have it all wrong or that there's a place to argue and a time, but in the middle of the hall during a meeting just might not be met w/the best response?
Could be like one brother said "He doesn't take counsel."
Will your conscience work right if it doesn't get recalibrated by scripture AND by others who admit to the same scriptures?
***BTW This is me thinking out loud for ME, not anyone else***
https://www.openbible.info/topics/conscience
(Link for me to look at or anyone else)
https://rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Libery-of-Conscience.pdf
Interesting paper.

Where would we be now if the Roman Catholic priest were still the only ones allowed to have bibles, after all they did use this tactic to commit horrible crimes against humanity.

Man! If only Jehovah was the only one who ever had free will....

Witness. Good idea. Keep them all stockpiled in her garage. She will know who is deserving.

Now we know why he worships the JW Org. 

I don't either.  🙂
But I see it here:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-14.htm

John 14 : 14   (Bible Hub)
New International Version
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

New Living Translation
Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

English Standard Version
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Berean Study Bible
If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.
I have the 1985 Interlinear and the word ME is removed.  

Now we know why he worships the JW Org. 

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me  for anything in my name, and I will do it."  John 14:13,14  NIV
Do you have a copy of the Wt. Greek Kingdom Interlinear?  This attachment is from the 1969 edition, and notice how the word, "me" is removed from the English rendering on the right for John 14:14.  
Today's NWT also omits the word "me" - "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
 
 

We were all meant to understand the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t recognize truth.   Yes, the anointed are to be the teachers that bring living water they have received from the spirit of the Father and Christ, to those who crave it.  The same living water fills each heart.   (Mal 2:7; John 4:14; 7:38+)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mal+2%3A7%3B+John+4%3A14%3B+7%3A38%3B+John13%3A20%3B+Matt.10%3A14%3B+Luke+10%3A16%3B+1Cor.4%3A1%3B+2Cor.5%3A20%3B+Col.1%3A20%3B+Mal.2%3A7%3B+Rev.1%3A6%3B+5%3A10%3B+Zech.8%3A23%3B+Rev.21%3A3%3B+Micah4%3A2%3B+Rev.14%3A1&version=CSB
You have already been blessed by Holy Spirit.  Without it, you would not perceive the peril that the anointed face in the organization.  You recognize that the elder body have replaced God’s priesthood.   The elders “stand where they do not belong”, in the Temple/dwelling of God. (Mark 13:14; 1 Cor 3:16; Rev 11:2; Dan 7:25; 8:10,13; 11:36; 2 Thess 2:4; Luke 21:24; Rev 13:10,7)
Could we perceive this on our own, without the blessing of our eyes being opened? (Isa 35:5; Acts 26:17,18) This blindness was prophesied to occur during the last days. (Isa 6:10; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10,11,12,14; 2:20)  You have reacted appropriately to the sins and hypocrisy that you witness in the organization, and have left – you have exited the apostate “city”. (Rev 18:4-8) You look for the “mountains/hills” of Judea where the “true anointed” will be found.  (Matt 24:15,16)
I know you have noticed that most JWs here, cannot see the grave circumstances that exist among the anointed and themselves in the organization.  Instead, there is mocking, a turning of the head, and complacency when it is addressed.  Why? Their eyes are sealed over. (John 12:40; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Rev 16:13-16) They are drinking “Wormwood’s” (fallen anointed) poisoned waters, and not those from Christ, although they believe they are. (Heb 12:15; Rev 8:10,11; Jude 1:12,13) They have accepted the life they want, even though they are “always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”  (1 Thess 5:3; 2 Tim 3:7; 4:1)   When we put a stop to drinking in those lies, and begin our search by praying for authentic truth, the veil is lifted from our spiritual eyes.  (Rev 3:18-20)
Here are just a few scriptures that apply to those not anointed, and to all:
John 11:25,26 - Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live.  Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? ”  John 11:25,26
Heb 6:10 - “For God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you demonstrated for his name by serving the saints -- and by continuing to serve them.”
1 Cor 1:2 – “To the church of God at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called as saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord -- both their Lord and ours.”
Matt 25:37-40 - “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or without clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit you?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
"The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”
Rev 22:17“Both the Spirit and the bride say, "Come! " Let anyone who hears, say, "Come! " Let the one who is thirsty come. Let the one who desires take the water of life freely.”
“Then he told his servants, 'The banquet is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 "Go then to where the roads exit the city and invite everyone you find to the banquet.' 10 "So those servants went out on the roads and gathered everyone they found, both evil and good. The wedding banquet was filled with guests.”
This banquet is the revealing of truth, the unfolding of Revelation which you are already beginning to perceive through the blessing of Holy Spirit. (Ps 119:130; Dan 8:26; 12:4)  The true "faithful" anointed do not arrive with bells and whistles as the GB have, with their army of elders; but in time, the “mountain” of truth will become more prominent, and the mountain of lies will become level ground.  Zech 4:1-14
 
 

You wouldn’t know Holy Spirit if you choked on a cup of it.

You really recycle your thoughts. I hate for it to sound like this, but you remind me of my favorite blog poster (who's bipolar) and the following account about her simple dog.
"She actually seemed to like throwing up.  To the simple dog, throwing up was like some magical power that she never knew she possessed - the ability to create infinite food.  I was less excited about the discovery because it turned my dog into a horrible, vomit-making perpetual motion machine.  Whenever I heard her retch in the backseat, I had to pull over as quickly as possible to prevent her from reloading her stomach and starting the whole cycle over again.     But as far as the simple dog was concerned, it was the best, most exciting day of her life. "   I'd say this is also true for all these opposers who perpetually recycle their complaints.   http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/11/dogs-dont-understand-basic-concepts.html (Maybe that's why Revelation says "outside are the dogs"?)  

1. God may not be actually supplying Holy Spirit to any Org rignt now.
2. An Org can indeed give instructions, but those instructions are only the words of Men not guided by God or Christ.
3. The instructions from the Watchtower/JW Org have proven to be false prophecy and twisted scripture. 

So you are admitting that it is men chosing men. And none of them have any proof of being anointed either.
No Holy Spirit involved there then. 
You JWs really do not like true scripture do you ?  10 men clinging to the robe of a JEW. 
Acts 2 16 - 18.
On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
Now, doesn't the Watchtower / JW Org say we are 'in the last days' ? 

@xero is back to his/her jealousy of the True Anointed ones. He/she is also back to the GB's idea of mentally unbalanced. We all know the scripture at Zechariah 8 : 23
This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue will tightly grasp the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ”
People of spiritual thinking will know that the JEW in this scripture refers to the True Anointed remnant. Therefore it is important to know who are the True Anointed, otherwise people could follow the wrong 'Jew'. Unfortunately over 8 million people are following the wrong 'Jew' of the Watchtower/JW org right now. 
 

From scripture I've only seen Jesus guide the anointed to pray to Almight God. The anointed pray through Christ of course but I haven't seen Jesus say 'Pray to me' 
However, I am not anointed, so I do not expect to fully understand scripture. I do not expect God or Chrsit to open up the scriptures to me. 
I think there is a need for an organisation that is run by the True Anointed. The scripture of ten men clinging to the skirt of a JEW, has to be fulfilled. So I do not expect the Earthly class to fully understand scripture. 
I agree that Christ and the Anointed 'are one' as in 'one spiritual body' with Christ as it's head.

So you are admitting that it is men chosing men. And none of them have any proof of being anointed either.
No Holy Spirit involved there then. 
You JWs really do not like true scripture do you ?  10 men clinging to the robe of a JEW. 
Acts 2 16 - 18.
On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
Now, doesn't the Watchtower / JW Org say we are 'in the last days' ? 

Thank you.  This appears to be a NWT, which I personally cannot trust.   If the anointed Body of Christ is trampled in the organization, so is Jesus Christ, their Head.   Dan 8:25
I find it helpful to get a broader view of what is being said.  Here’s a link for many translations, just for 2 Cor 12:9
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2 Corinthians 12:9  
Consider this, the anointed are part of Christ.  They are the members of his spiritual Body.  He is the Head.   With a physical body, all members are controlled by the head, the mind.  No?  How, can the anointed operate without consulting their Head?  They must meet his approval, they must ask for direction.  They are his future “wife”. 
If we were beheaded we would die. If we were to ignore what our head/mind tells us, we would become a vegetable.
This, is what I see happening with the anointed in the organization.  They are disconnected from their Head and rely on men to guide them, who prohibited from them connecting in prayer, with their Head, Jesus Christ.