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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Musing on prayer   
    That is true.  But isn’t it quite remarkable what GB has done!  They have put themselves in the limelight, and express the need to trust them!  Look what they have accomplished and built.  And of course, the decrees they pass down must be obeyed. 
    I am being flippant, because the description you give of an anointed one does not fit the “anointed” leadership of the organization who glorify themselves before cameras, and before God.  Who have proclaimed that they will be with Christ before the final judgment has arrived.  Men, who expects obedience to their errors.
     “Brothers and sisters, consider what you were when God called you to be Christians. Not many of you were wise from a human point of view. You were not in powerful positions or in the upper social classes. 27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame. God chose what the world considers weak to put what is strong to shame. 28 God chose what the world considers ordinary and what it despises—what it considers to be nothing—in order to destroy what it considers to be something. 29 As a result, no one can brag in God’s presence. 30 You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God, our approval, our holiness, and our ransom from sin. 31 As Scripture says, “Whoever brags must brag about what the Lord has done.” 1 Cor 1:26-31
    These men, won’t last.  Rev 17:12,13,15-18
     
     
  2. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    So you are admitting that it is men chosing men. And none of them have any proof of being anointed either.
    No Holy Spirit involved there then. 
    You JWs really do not like true scripture do you ?  10 men clinging to the robe of a JEW. 
    Acts 2 16 - 18.
    On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
    Now, doesn't the Watchtower / JW Org say we are 'in the last days' ? 
  3. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    1. God may not be actually supplying Holy Spirit to any Org rignt now.
    2. An Org can indeed give instructions, but those instructions are only the words of Men not guided by God or Christ.
    3. The instructions from the Watchtower/JW Org have proven to be false prophecy and twisted scripture. 
  4. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    See the deal is 1. Jehovah is using at least 1 org 2. Instructions are coming from this org 3. The instructions are scriptural
    Whether someone is wearing a magic beanie is immaterial. Now if they come up w/some new junk and it's not in the Bible, I had better see some Moses-like Miracles performed and the new junk better harmonize w/the previous junk.
    Man do people geek-out on this. Do you imagine Jesus would do this? Or ANY of the apostles?
  5. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Whatever the thinking behind the new light of the GB being the faithful & discreet slave, one thing it undeniably does it work for “God not being a God of disorder or one of peace.”
    When the ONLY criteria for being anointed is to say you are, & then immediately demand a stage, as Witness does, wowee! What a formula for disorder that is!
    Of course, the anointed that we all knew and grew up with did not demand a stage at all, nor lay claim to any special Status or Audience as anointed, unlike some “anointed” today, who could be genuine, could be nuts, could be sincere, could be unbalanced, and even could be liars, since the only “requirement” is to say, “I’m anointed.”
    With the present arrangement, a prospective GB member will not be a Johnny-come-lately, and will have spent decades in full-time service, giving ample opportunity for existing GB to look that one over.
  6. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Evacuated in I'm sympathetic to this view   
    Many of Christendoms clergy seem to go with this view and probably not a few of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    All I can say is that if in connection with animals "death is no more", then something else will have to be no more!!..........

  7. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  
  8. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Pudgy in Musing on prayer   
    I saw the movie "Braveheart" .... there is a lot to be said for living a dull, slow, unremarkable life ...., uh .... as opposed to being drawn and quartered.
  9. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in Musing on prayer   
    Isaac Newton may have had Aspergers. He seemed really misanthropic and vindictive in his dealings with people. He had people drawn and quartered who were counterfeiters, and if true, he also didn't invent the calculus, but Leibniz did. Some suggest we know more about Newton because he outlived people he later trashed after they were dead.
    Was he anointed? If so, not for his advertised christian character or qualities.
    My thoughts on anointed in the past is that we'll eventually find out they were unremarkable from a modern human's historical viewpoint. Probably humble people. Maybe not even particularly bright.
  10. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Musing on prayer   
    He wouldn't be the first barking dog in the neighborhood, and most definitely, not the last.
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to ComfortMyPeople in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic.
    Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly 12   The 12 tribes of Israel were actually 12, not 13   The Levitical priesthood was organized in a multiple of 12, namely 24 divisions (1Chr 24: 1-19)   The recruitment of assistants and officers who served David were organized in groups of 24,000 per month, from the 12 tribes, giving a total of 288,000 soldiers. All multiples of 12, and all exact numbers, real and non-symbolic.   Also, Jesus literally chooses 12 apostles, as we know. Literally.   The following is very interesting, in my opinion. When there were only 11 faithful apostles alive, just before Pentecost, they prayed intensely to Jehovah for guidance during those days (Acts 1:14), as a result of which, it was for divine guidance that they chose a twelfth apostle again, thus when Spiritual Israel began at Pentecost there were literally 12 foundations.   And, precisely at Pentecost, how many were gathered when the nucleus of the anointed ones who would go to heaven was formed? 120. Another multiple of 12 (Acts 1:15) It is true that in Revelation numbers like 3, 4, 6, 7, 10 are symbolic. But I have my reservations for 12 or 144,000 as symbolics.
    Indeed, if 144,000 is symbolic, many things are fixed, as has already been said: the large number of Christians during the past 20 centuries who will easily have exceeded that number. The problem of replacement anointed ones, and I suppose others that now escape me.
    The best answer I can give is: I'm not sure, I don't know.
  12. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    @xero is back to his/her jealousy of the True Anointed ones. He/she is also back to the GB's idea of mentally unbalanced. We all know the scripture at Zechariah 8 : 23
    This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue will tightly grasp the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ”
    People of spiritual thinking will know that the JEW in this scripture refers to the True Anointed remnant. Therefore it is important to know who are the True Anointed, otherwise people could follow the wrong 'Jew'. Unfortunately over 8 million people are following the wrong 'Jew' of the Watchtower/JW org right now. 
     
  13. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Okay, but I ask, where is love for neighbor with this doctrine, a doctrine that for those who may not be like you, but totally embrace this timetable? Where is your love for your neighboring JWs?   This date is at the root of the organization’s teachings, and is a source of disfellowshipping for many who reject it.  Perhaps that is why you may be keeping your opinion to yourself? (Prov 29:25; Mark 10:29,30)
    I just heard a video clip that stated a document was prepared by the Chairman’s Committee of the GB, to change the date of 1914 to 1957.  Ray Franz comments on this document he was holding in the video:
    "Now, in this document, they suggest and advances an idea, that uh, the generation that would see the time of the end of all things should not be counted from 1914.  They fix on Jesus’ statement that there would be signs in the heavens, and so they suggest here that the date should be moved up to 1957, when the Sputnik was sent into space by the Russians, and they say, now this is the celestial phenomena that would indicate the generation that would see the final” (I didn’t catch the last word).
    It seems that this “Sputnik” idea was even brought out on this forum since I've been a member.  Someone can correct me on that.
    So, there you go.  If the doctrine of 1914 was correct, well established by the “slave” under the guidance of Jesus Christ, there would be no reason to consider moving the date.  There would be no need for David Splane to twist and turn the dates of Fred Franz’s birth and baptism…to make a new understanding of a date...they are too cowardly to admit is a lie. 
    And yet, it is a tool used to kick people to the curb, and why?  To save the face of men who have no pity for the damage they have done, to the lives of millions over the years. 
    Differing weights and varying measures—
    both are detestable to the Lord.  Prov 20:10
    Their hypocrisy should be detestable to us also.
    Have they proven to be “faithful and discreet”?  The word translated as “discreet”, actually has, as its definition…“wise”.  Matt 24:48-51
    There is no love for neighbor, no truth, no wisdom, no insight in the doctrine of 1914. 
    Yet, this date characterizes the organization that you belong to.
    "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:17,18
     
     
     
     
  14. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    I know you are being sarcastic, but if anything changed, then it wouldn't be for the first time, you know that. And really, it is not a fundamental problem whether the number is literal or not, (even though I said it could solve the problem of increasing partakers, as you say, it could be because some have dropped out etc.. ) Ultimately God knows the correct interpretation, we can only do our best to understand it, and we can be wrong, as so many others in Bible times were. I am not worrying about it.
  15. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Could it be that only mentally unbalanced or competitive people find themselves obsessed with who is or isn't anointed? The recent video made it clear that this is an internal decision by an individual and that there's no objective way for anyone to know if someone is or isn't anointed. The minimal behavioral conduct required to be considered "Christian" is clear from scripture and we can all look at someone and see if the behavior we can observe is in line w/scripture. On the other hand we don't have body cams and recordings from a persons mind or anything like this so we can know 24x7 whether they're OK.
    It seems all the worrying of this bone is about organization. Does Jehovah use this organization known as JW's?
    You decide as an individual. If Jehovah chooses to NOT use it, you'll know. No one needs a bunch of whiners to look for unscriptural lint left in the washing machine to know whether the clothes cleaner still has cleaned the clothes to a usable degree.
    Ok. You can go back to nit picking.
  16. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    :))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg.
    Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))
  17. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    I have wondered about that too, for the same reason. If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year. I would not be surprise if it was dropped one day....
  18. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    True. I've made that very clear many times. I think of this site as a place to discuss various opinions and concerns about various Watchtower doctrines. After much prayer and study and meditation, I even find myself in disagreement with almost all of our chronology-related doctrines. Of course, at last count, I also find myself completely agreeing with about 95% of the Watchtower's other doctrines. (It's closer to 98.6% when using the list of all the different baptismal questions that have been used since 1967, when I was baptized.) So I have no problem discussing the 5% that I question.
    What happened to your three posts about Russell? It looks like you deleted those posts and a couple of others under this topic that other persons here had already answered. For a minute there, I assumed you actually went back and looked up some of those Russell quotes and realized that you needed to remove your own posts. But that didn't sound very much like you at all! LOL!
  19. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root...20  That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,...23  And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in,y for God is able to graft them back in.
    As we know, WTJWorg teaches that 144000 is a literal number. They also teaches that if some “anointed ones” drop out then they will be replaced by someone else, to get the number filled.
    Reading these lines, I see something for the first time. Fallen anointed ones are replaced by newly elected anointed ones. But the verse says that the fallen anointed ones can return and be attached to the tree again. So the tree always remains the same, but the number of branches is not determined. Returning the cut branches, there is no mention anywhere that the replacement branches will be cut off because the original branches are reattached. So, the number of "anointed ones" according to this illustration is not defined. It can be larger than the imagined number (144000).
     
     
  20. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Yes, of course. There are very few numbers in Revelation that are taken literally. Even the number 144,000 is made up of a non-literal number of tribes (12) each made up of a non-literal number of persons from each one of them (12,000).
    The rationale for taking this one literally is that it is compared with an uncountable number of gentiles who come out of the great tribulation. We don't teach that these are literal gentiles either.
  21. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    Just for sake of discussion  
    Is there a possibility that, the number, 144000 should not be taken literally? Revelation is full of symbolism and almost nothing is literal. Even the term 1000 year (Kingdom) should not be literally counted as one thousand years of 365 days each.
    WTJWorg has formally given up the length of Creative Day that lasted 7,000 years. But, it is still the idea that literal 1000 years of the Kingdom is PART of the literal 7000 Years (of 7th Creative Day). That is why it was a rumor around 1975, because then the period of 6000 years from the creation of man ended. According to such a WTJWorg chronology, the final part of the 7th day, with the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God, was expected to begin in that period. 
    By overthrowing the idea of a fixed duration of Creative Day, the interpretation built on the rejected idea was called into question. But nothing new. The same can be seen in other interpretations.
  22. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    In general, that statement is true. Except when this particular mystery doctrine was being explained by Russell. For example, in Volume VI of Studies in the Scriptures, page 239, Russell showed that the 144,000 were "Joint-sacrificers" with Jesus Christ.

    As I mentioned above, these 144,000 joint-sacrificers are correctly referred to as "gods," per Russell:

    [also, Volume VI of Studies in the Scriptures, p.239]
  23. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    This is correct. Russell never took the place of Christ before his Church. Christ was the Head of the Body, and Russell would never consider himself the "Head" of the Body of Christ. This doesn't mean that Russell would ever have admitted that any other person could be God's "mouthpiece." Russell only said this about himself, and no one else. Also Russell printed letters that addressed himself as "the faithful and wise servant." He printed no letters that identified anyone else as that "faithful and wise servant." He did this while teaching that this "servant" could only be ONE INDIVIDUAL, and not a class of individuals.
  24. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    No. I don't think he ever took it back. The teaching survived into Rutherford's period of leadership, and there were still echoes of it during the time of Knorr and Franz. I don't recall exactly when it was rejected in print, but some say that Franz, while giving the Memorial talk, would quote the verse from 1 Cor 12:12 and then follow up with an odd statement to the effect that "only the 144,000 share the flesh and blood of the Christ, even though Jesus himself no longer shares flesh and blood." It's scriptural but by putting emphasis on the word "share" he made it sound odd, perhaps invoking John 6.
    There's even an echo of it in the expression, "he is one of 'the anointed.'"
    Originally this "mystery doctrine" led to some awkward sounding statements from Russell too. For example, he said in 1914 (Watchtower, p.83):
    https://archive.org/details/1914WatchTower/mode/2up?q=sum+total
    "The word Christ signifies anointed. God has declared that He will have an anointed King and High Priest to be His Agent in the blessing of the world. He has declared that that great King is, primarily, the Lord Jesus Christ. He also declares that instead of the Lord Jesus being the sum-total of the Anointed One, it is His good pleasure that there shall be members added to Him. And the adding of these members has been the completing of this Anointed One."
    But if all the anointed were "The Christ" this had led to him also claiming that the anointed 144,000, including himself, were also the "Mighty God" and the "Eternal Father." (Isaiah 9) And his explanations seemed strained.
    "Soon follows the power which will, under him as our head, constitute the whole body of Christ the "Mighty God" to rule and bless the nations - and the body with the head, shall share in the work of restoring the life lost in Adam, and therefore be members of that company which as a whole will be the Everlasting Father to the restored race." - (WT November 1881: 298)
    Rutherford called this body of Christ: "the Great Messiah." This followed consistently on Russell's statements such as another from the same 1914 Watchtower:
    "And as we further study, we find that this is the Mystery mentioned in the Scriptures: to wit, that the great Messiah so long promised should be composed of many individuals;
    But I think it was only Russell who delved into statements that would show that this doctrine proved that when Jesus said "Ye are gods" in John 10, that this also had reference to the 144,001. I'm sure that to some, this would have sounded too similar to Mormon teaching.
  25. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)   
    I think that if you understood the whole picture of Russell's attempt (and the difficulties) to make all scripture fit into one complete view, you would never call it blasphemy. In fact, I don't think you could even provide any "proof" that he was wrong. Take the following two passages from 1 Corinthians for example:
    (1 Corinthians 12:12) For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ.
    (1 Corinthians 6:15) Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
    Paul could easily be interpreted as saying that each and every one of the "Anointed" (which is an English word for the Greek word "Christ") are therefore all included in the "Anointed." Therefore this interpretation was imposed back upon Ephesians 1:9, so that the very doctrine of all 144,000 being gathered into the Christ, was considered to be the "mystery" or the "sacred secret:"
    (Ephesians 1:9, 10) 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .
    The better understanding, of course, is that the 144,000 are in close union with Christ, and only the primary one, the Head, should be called "The Christ" or the "Anointed One."
    (Galatians 3:16) . . .. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ.
     
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