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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    This sounds like you are actually writing about a Kingdom Hall. 
    where nobody’s identity is known for sure, where it is so easy to hide who and what you are,
    How true that is. Because you and others don't think sins should be confessed, so Elders and congregants hide all their sins. And even when congregants (or Elders?)  are reproved, no one knows why, so the sins are still hidden. Hence congregants and Elders can still hide who they really are, and of course this has led to so much CSA in congregations.
    where there is no spiritual food, Now that's for sure. The 'food' coming from men that are not inspired of God's Holy Spirit, and possibly written by men that are not of the Anointed. 
  2. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    It is a very awkward and embarrassing situation. Even if we discreetly told someone what was going on, that person would often tell it to others so that our private confession could be publicly known in front of many. So, many would be "healed", not just a sinner :)))
  3. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand:
    Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls.
    I can think of a way of solving that problem.
    In addition to blasting away at everyone as “apostate,” your weird mistake is in thinking you can convert this forum into a Kingdom Hall. You can’t. The internet is inherently a lawless place, where nobody’s identity is known for sure, where it is so easy to hide who and what you are, where rocks lurk to rip the bottom from your love feast boat, where there is no spiritual food, where there is no stabilizing presence of elders, and where any claim of anyone who says he is an elder is unverifiable. Do you think that which is crooked can be made straight?
    Or perhaps you somehow think you have a “sacred calling” to argue, but in that case you are in direct contradiction with the Bible and the earthly organization.
    On my blog profile, I do nor say that I am. Nor do I have what many seem to feel is the obligatory link to jw.org. That’s deliberate. Everyone has some idiosyncrasies (Lord knows you have some! to the point where your identity itself is questionable) and if you link to the Witness website you convey the impression that you got it from them. I’d rather not tarnish them that way. 
    Of course, one can read my posts and readily conclude I am a Witness, which I am, but I don’t outright say so on the front page. I admit I veer into the crass at times. There is one stereotype I like to counter, and that is that JWs eat Bible sandwiches—that is, apart from the Bible, they have no interests at all, from which some interpret that they are nothing but self-righteousness on steroids. I like to counter that with an image of someone more true to what I think Witnesses really are, who lives in the world, and as such reacts to it, but attempts imperfectly to be no part of it—in short, a regular joe that other regular joes might relate to.
    Of course, there are some Witnesses who do eat Bible sandwiches. To these, some of what I write is a turnoff. And as stated, to those who heed the WT’s advice as to hanging out where there is riffraff, anything written here is questionable.
  4. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Isn't this the scripture which is false ?  
  5. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Yes, i am learning exactly now. Please, will you clear here, about what God inspired them to be published? 
    Oh dear God! Stick to context of comment. Jesus didn't act in roll of elder in Judicial Committee with another 2 elders and making decision about brother X or sister Y. I hope God will bless you this time and you will see the point :))).
    :)))
  6. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Many of us here know how GB and elders in JW congregations interpreting, how these verses in Mat 18 is about "minor sins". All "gross sins" must be reported to elders (not to police or other secular authorities).  
    In such way of interpretation JW people can't apply verses 15 and 16 for "serious sin". 
    But they are in obligation to apply verse 17 for "serious sin". Is CSA "serious sin" (or crime)? In WTJWorg interpretations that is matter for elders first/primarily. Only recently Organization gave permission to members to report that same thing (CSA) to secular governments. 
    Now, is lying or stealing "serious sin"? What items from Chapter 18 do JW members apply in such a case? Do they report that to police, or only to elders? Or they are free to handle that individually?
    By now i see how Shepherd book (2019) speaking about things as fraud, slander, manslaughter, to some level connected with some sort of notification to/from secular authorities, and specifically/only about CSA in connection with secular governments and reporting.
    All in all question you made is proper: What do they (GB) obey? And what they teaching members to obey?
     
  7. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    But how do you feel about the GB / Lawyers not handing over the 25 year Pedophile database in USA ?
    How do you feel that here in UK the UK Bethel didn't want to hand over their Pedophile information, to the point that the info' was only handed over (o rmaybe only a small amount of the info') after the court told them to ?
    How do you feel the GB Layews that have deliberately lied in courtrooms ? 
    How do you feel about Elders using clergy penitent privilege in court ? 
    how do you feel about compensation being paid to victims of CSA in the JW Org / Watchtower ? 
    Those are important points, because those points will show how much of a 'Christian' you are. 
  8. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    NOW THIS IS WHAT A CURRENT ELDER THINK OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IN JW ORG CONGREGATIONS.  AS I'VE SAID BEFORE THE ORG JUST LOOK AT VICTIMS OF CSA AS BEING COLLATERAL DAMAGE. 
  9. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    But how do you feel about the GB / Lawyers not handing over the 25 year Pedophile database in USA ?
    How do you feel that here in UK the UK Bethel didn't want to hand over their Pedophile information, to the point that the info' was only handed over (o rmaybe only a small amount of the info') after the court told them to ?
    How do you feel the GB Layews that have deliberately lied in courtrooms ? 
    How do you feel about Elders using clergy penitent privilege in court ? 
    how do you feel about compensation being paid to victims of CSA in the JW Org / Watchtower ? 
    Those are important points, because those points will show how much of a 'Christian' you are. 
  10. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Mathew 18 : 16 & 17
    But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'every word may be strengthened upon the testimony of two or three witnesses.'And if he fails to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he fails to listen to even to the church, let him be to you as the pagan and the tax collector.
    Or NWT
    “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault* between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter* may be established.p 17  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nationsq and as a tax collector.
    We are not talking about everyday conversation, we are talking about SIN in the congregation. 
    Also i think the apostle Paul made it known  
    1 Corrinthians 5 v 1
    Actually sexual immoralitya is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife.
    So, once again it seems your GB / Org do not obey scripture 'as they see it', because they do it all in secret. 
    We are not talking Data protection here, we are talking obeying God. 
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules?
    :)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference
  12. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.
    19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal
    Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132
    decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.
    According to what all of us know very well, facts are:
    A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them
    B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them 
    BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this!
    The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today. 
  13. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to xero in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Making anyone a mandated reporter...just what we need, more Karen's bothering people because they are not happy if someone isn't as miserable as they are
  14. Haha
  15. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    This is probably true. But it is in the nature of social media. Nobody “fully understands” anything of which they speak. Maybe they should, but they rarely do. All communication is a give-and-take of trying to get a better grasp of things, searching out accuracy and evading the rocks that would rip open the boat’s bottom.
    For the most part, this is understood going in. It is buyer beware. A fool believes every word. The shrewd ones weighs matters carefully.
    Granted, few people do this. But the only solution is to become more shrewd oneself or pull the plug on social media Since the latter isn’t likely to happen, one can only aim for the former.
  16. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Wow, yes please. Then the GB's lawyers might have to tell the truth, but then i doubt it. 
    And maye it still boils down to the fact that if an Elder does not believe a victim, OR pretends not to believe a victim or victims parents, then nothing gets done internally or outwardly.  What a BIG loophole that is. 
    If the law was that ALL allegations had to be forwarded to the police then it would simply be obeying the Superior Authorities.  
    Now if Elders, Circuit Overseers, et al, were not doing the jobs of the Anointed, then maybe the jobs would be done properly. If the True Anointed were in those positions the jobs would indeed be done better.  Because, regarding the Anointed, to whom more is given, more will be expected in return. 
  17. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in "Magadangate: A Governing Body member gets the gospels wrong!"   
    What are you downvoting, Allen?  The fact that the GB member was exposed for his stupidity?  I remember watching him create his drawing, thinking how confusing his account seemed. What was his point, I thought.  But, I didn’t investigate it, and moved on.  I appreciate how the maker of the video drew my attention to Jackson’s melding of two Bible accounts, into his own.  After realizing this mistake, I thought to myself how many people were used in filming just his part of the meeting, and no one questioned his demonstration of this account about Jesus, as inaccurate. 
    So, what are you downvoting?  Are you downvoting Jackson – that he should have done better research, even pray about his demonstration to be in harmony with scriptures?  Or, are you downvoting someone who isn’t a JW, but found the error? 
    What concerns you more?
  18. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Case in point.
    (Forgive me. I admit it is a cheap shot.)
  19. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Yes. Geoffrey Jackson made that point to the ARC but they didn't want to hear it.
    In the Dear Mr. Putin ebook, I included:
    "Three times before the Australian Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson, of the Witness Governing Body, pleaded for universal, mandatory reporting laws, with no exceptions—if that could only be done, it would make the job of the Witness organization in policing its own without raising the ire of those outside the congregation “so much easier,” he said.
    "Continuing his cross-examination, Justice Angus Stewart said: “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities...” I almost wish that Brother Jackson would have interjected at this point, “I wish you would not leave it aside, for it would solve the problem.” The greater world cannot make a dent in preventing child sexual abuse, and so it puts the onus on those who are trying to do something about it. Alas, our best lines invariably occur to us too late—had Brother Jackson picked up my line, it probably just would have got their backs up—and then (gulp) he would have looked at me with displeasure."
    Alas, this passage does not survive into the rewrite, but I'll stick it somewhere.
    If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.
     
  20. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 
    We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.
    Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.
    So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.
    Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.
     
  21. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Thinking in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Arauna I agree with so much of what you say...but as a people we shouldn’t have needed the ARC..to do the right thing....that’s what some are arguing here.
    And they are right....BUT..we have corrected  the error..even if it was forced on us....our policies have been updated..and this would never happen again...it will never be sorted in house or quietly .
    we are under Jehovah’s Laws...and there are no loopholes with them...but he taught us...thru the ARC.
  22. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Thinking in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    The elders didn’t screw up Anna..it was the way things were done back then...their hands were tied....we have to acknowledge that...our policies have changed because of the ARC....
  23. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    In WTJWorg, a structure is set up, a hierarchy that is both - spiritual and administrative. According to this measure, the WTJWorg Institution (I remind you again, JW lawyers claim in Court that according to the hierarchical system they are the same as the Catholic Church) determines who is allowed to say what and who is allowed to do what and how to do it.
    Because of such an "organized system", because the JW Church is an Organization, a Legal Body aka a Corporation and the people who are in the governing structures of this Organization have responsibility for the way they act and for the consequences of how they react to all events within each assembly. If the Organization is not able to “lead” the herd, if it is not able to have “under control” the elders and their ability to handle everything they have to solve in the assembly then it is a good question you ask; How would you handle that?
    The second part of the problem is the mentality of people (members), shame, hiding, feeling powerless, the question of who and how to ask for help, caution. 
    And then we have the question of trust between members, trust between members and clergy (because elders want to be like Catholic clergy by privilege) , so we again have JW lawyers asking the Court Clergy Privilege, for what is being condemned as “unbiblical” in WTJWorg publications and in members mind. There are double measures inside congregations, favoritism and other "institutional (organizational) sins". And many more. So you ask good question:  How would you handle that?
  24. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    "If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??
    I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.
    Yes, Arauna, you are right. I should have known you had faith in every word of Jesus.
    But I also assumed you had faith in most of what the WTJWorg interpretation is, so your IF confused me a bit. Because WTJWorg explains how this criminal will be with Jesus in Paradise not in heaven but on earth. That claim can be true, or it can be wrong. 140 years of publishing at WTJWorg gives us reason to be wary. :))
  25. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    Acts 5 : 1-4 
    However, a man named An·a·niʹas, together with his wife Sap·phiʹra, sold some property. 2  But he secretly held back some of the price, with his wife’s knowledge, and he brought just a part of it and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3  But Peter said: “An·a·niʹas, why has Satan emboldened you to lie to the holy spirit and secretly hold back some of the price of the field?
    Here is the answer. So think on it. How did Peter know the truth of the matter ?
    You of little faith. You have stopped believing in God's Holy Spirit and it's power.
    With a True Anointed, God can use them. God can send His Holy Spirit which will know truth from lies. But you people only think in a physical way. You have stopped believing in God's powers. If God wants a truly clean Organisation, HE will have one. 
     
     
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