Patiently waiting for Truth

Due to my eyes I listen to things more frequently..... but you are giving away your age. LOL. The world is changing.....

Oh dear tom you are soooooooooo funny. 
quote But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.
But then you go on and attack me. And earlier you were attacking Witness. 
I honestly think you are frightened of the things I write. Just look how you try to belittle me. You know I speak truth and therefore you try to pretend that I'm an idiot. 
Keep trying tom, it just shows you up for what you are. 

When I think of a religion lying I think of a recent example of the fds and rank & file telling the public and under oath that they do not cut off and shun family members and in the same year come out with a video about the expected behavior of parents cutting off and shunning their own daughter. When a religion is willing to blatantly tell very obvious lie, they will be willing to lie about other things. 

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

You know what's funny, is that most of the people I've seen who were partakers were weird in some way or another.
We're told that their spirit tells them. We're not supposed to question it.
We do of course. We try to correlate their external behavior and appearance w/being 'anointed'
I have to say I don't know who is or isn't, but it doesn't matter. It's not as if someone's personal profession makes them any more knowledgeable or holy than anyone else in any given congregation.
I remember the 1st memorial I went to. There was all this fanfare and yet the talk was dull and we all had to be careful not to spill the wine and everyone's ears were listening quietly to see if they heard any crunching sounds. ("Psst! Did you see that! So and so partook!") Then we had to rush out so the next congregation could get in.
I thought it all pretty silly at the time and over the years if I saw anyone not one foot into the grave w/decades of service I thought "Huh". But I reconciled myself to the decisions others made as their problem (if any) and not mine.
Suppose someone professes to be of the anointed, should I change my behavior towards them? No. Defer to them when they present a scriptural argument that doesn't wash? No.
I have seen though that a lot of people have been looking at all this either waiting for them to die off, like they are the sands in the hourglass counting down to the end of this system.
Not that I blame them. Any more than I blame anyone. I do see, however in some the desire to be in charge, and I'm always suspicious of anyone who revels in telling others what to do and how to do it.
If I've gotten in any trouble w/fellow elders it's because I don't dunk on publishers when I could. So sister X is weird and partakes. So sister X has a lot of opinions. Hey, maybe she has something to say, maybe she's just feeling lonely and unremarkable and wants to feel remarkable. Fine.
One CO said when some bros complained about another bro that he didn't do things unless he got a lot of praise - "So praise him. No skin off your nose."

Yes, of course. I think most who write here write for some other motive. It is certainly true of me.
Sure. It could be I’ve been here too long. I’ve come to regard the forum as “mine”—indeed, some have thought it is—and here I ignore that good advise with impunity. I suppose that’s not good—it certainly is not according to our training. Alas, I’ve come to know the characters too well, or at least have become set in my view of the characters. I have to set my own terms for being here, because I think it is not right to earnestly discuss spiritual things with those who unequivocally hate the Christian organization. (not to imply that you have no problem with it, of course. I don’t think it. You’re doing what all faithful visitors do, what I did at one time.) But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.
Having said that, see how long it takes for that idiot 4Jah to get on your nerves. You can write a post about torture and he will attach a laughing emoji to it. He asks JWI about Santa Claus, for he is not sure himself, and JWI says there is no Santa Claus. Then he calls JWI a hypocrite for observing December. 
(Let the reader use discernment, but if he doesn’t want to, that’s okay too. Maybe I’ve been here too long.)

In 1975, people were commended for selling their houses and preparing for Armageddon to arrive within that year. Of course, their inclination based on numbers was wrong.   But after listening to the third part of the annual meeting, I believe “Armageddon” is a long way off in their eyes, and the GB prefer that way.  There are too many earthly projects they need to address and accomplish.  Besides, perhaps in the deep recesses of their minds, they don't want to face Christ.  Do they have the power to stall the coming judgment concerning their works and faith in an organization?  
How do they reckon with this statement that their organization has made:
"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization."   26 "Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities"   Wt 1990/11/1 p. 26
Most of the video concerned a new project that will take "years" to complete.  This was said with emphasis by A. Morris.  It was also emphasized to "pleeese support it according to your circumstances" by S. Lett.  So, there are many new projects  to support! (the Ramipo facility as well)
I'm amazed at their hypocritical speech; yes, according to them, the GT and Armageddon is imminent on the one hand, while this video production will take a very long time to produce...AND, as stated, will bring many into "Jehovah's organization".  It will be a series of videos on the gospels, entitled the "good news according to Jesus".  "Jehovah" is helping to make it happen - they already have evidence of that!  Do they know that the Mormon church has produced quality videos about the gospels already?  Was God instrumental in making those happen?  It only takes actors and money; and they're already training their up and coming stars now, while pleading for money at the same time.  
In the interim, the anointed spiritual "house" of God, is ignored, and trampled into silence to make room for a bigger, greater, "modern day idol."  (Dan 11:31; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 13:5-7)
“Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your houses that have been paneled while this house[a] is desolate?”  Haggai 1:4
Footnote:  [a] "that is, the temple".  
(John 2:19-22; Matt 16:18; Isa 43:10-12; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19-20; Eph 2:20-22)
 
 
 

I'm not sure how following this scripture is controversial.
BTW - I think the obsession some have w/the term 'anointed' and all the associated baggage is a distraction.
Yes, there are some who appear to be engaging in GB-Anointed worship, but that's their problem, not mine.
The scriptures tell me what to do, how to live and what to hope for and I try to live by these.
I could obsess about obesity in the congregation too if I wanted to. Let's say have people step on scales and if their BMI wasn't w/in a healthy weight, then they'd be disqualified from serving in any capacity.
But I don't.
I haven't been above teasing people at times, like when one brother asked me if I watched the game. I replied "No. I was probably praying or in the ministry."
There are always some who people imagine (or they themselves imagine of themselves) that they are "superfine apostles" - 2 Cor. 11:5 There were in the 1st century and will be today the same issues.

I remember one bro who was "stumbled" when he moved to another state and on his return he said "the brothers there don't let me do anything!" (he was prominent locally before he moved - his illustrations are still in the pubs) - I said to him "What! You mean they won't let you go in FS??"
He got my point, but he wasn't amused.
In the congregation there are always going to be people who aren't happy and have to wrestle to see who's plumage is shinier than the next.
That's not me. I suppose if I were a Calvinist, I'd be more likely to embrace the "Doctrine of Total Depravity" ... Sounds cool doesn't it!
 
‘I Am A Depraved Wretch,’ Says Calvinist Smugly

BURLINGTON, VT—According to preordained sources, a 37-point Calvinist bravely and openly admitted his own depravity this week during a brutal intellectual beat-down of an ignorant atheist. Witnesses were shocked by the young man’s great honesty about his fallen condition, in addition to his luminous intellect and well-oiled beard.
  “Listen, it’s written plainly in the Doctrine of Total Depravity,” he said. “I’m totally depraved. I’m a worthless sinner with no merit deserving of God’s grace...duh. If you deny that, it’s because God in his mercy has not yet chosen to awaken your spirit with the divine light of his unmerited favor. You are an enemy of God and you are completely repulsive to Him. I say this with gentleness and respect because I love you.”
As the Calvinist spoke through a thick cloud of the finest pipe tobacco smoke, sources say they detected a hint of smugness in his smile. The atheist detected the smug attitude and pointed it out.
"Point proved!" said the Calvinist. "I am a depraved sinner and my smugness proves that point!"
The hapless atheist replied, "I don't know... I don't feel like I'm really that bad of a person."
This was the moment the young Calvinist had been waiting for. He set down his pipe, looked at the poor deceived sinner through narrowed eyes, and with a wry smile, demolished the atheist’s puny argument once and for all. “...by what standard?” he said.
The atheist stood there dumbfounded with a dumb atheist look on his face. He knew he had been beaten and was left with no choice but to repent.
Sources in heaven say that thanks to this bold, brilliant Calvinist’s bold and brilliant witness, God decided to go ahead and choose the atheist for salvation before the foundation of the world.

@TrueTomHarley  It appears that the HATRED is coming from you.  This time aimed at Witness. Other times aimed at me or others. 
And @Witness offers her views on spiritual matters far more than you ever do. All you do is promote yourself and your books. 
 
 
 

@xero Wow the organisation have trained you well in their twisting of scripture and their sly lying ways.
Lets take for example the 'Faithful and discreet Slave' 
Up until 2013 (I think) ALL of the Anointed were classed as the F&DS. But then wow, suddenly ONLY THE GB  are the F&DS.
So, tell me how your GB got this message from God ?  Relate this to your cat nonsense. Where is ANY PROOF that your GB are the F&DS ?  Why did your GB suddenly demote the rest of the Anointed ones ?  
Now another example, the 'Superior Authorties' of Romans. How did your Org / Watchtower get the false message from God saying that the SA was no longer the Governments / Leaders of this world, but suddenly became God and Christ ? 
WHY WOULD GOD TELL A LIE ? Answer is God did not lie. The Leaders of your Org / W/t LIED because they wanted power over the whole congregation. They did not get any message from God.
And now your GB admit that they are not inspired of Holy Spirit, but they use this confession only as an excuse for the lies they've told and continue to tell. 
One of the main reasons your GB are so guilty of lies is, as I've mentioned, that they say they are the F&DS. By saying that, they are saying they are the 'vioce' / spokesperson of God through Christ. That is blasphamy, and they continue to prove so by their dishonest immoral behavior. 
The GB's attitude concerning Child Sexual Abuse within the Watchtower / JW Org proves they have no love for God, Christ or people. Your GB are a total disgrace, but of course they will have their judgemnet soon. 
 

For the life of me, I cannot take this fellow seriously. With a level of abuse (granted, I provoked it here, but it is just so much fun. And this is not really an example of it) that is off the charts, it is virtually the only thing about him worth mentioning.
I can’t imagine why the Librarian (that old hen) puts up with him, when she has dropped the abuse hammer on others. Poor CC suffers it every time you turn around—not necessarily unjustly, but certainly no worse than this fellow. Even Brother Fullalove (me) triggered an abuse complaint long ago.
I can only think that when commenters answer him without rebuke, or at least reproof  (most do not make that error) it is because somewhere through probably painful experience in life they have learned what is expedient with abusive men.

If you read any of my posts here, you would see how I feel about Wt's deception. 

Yes, but he was his own boss :))

8 men calling themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave and exalting themselves above every perosn living here on this Earth. And those 8 men exalt themseves over the True Anointed ones. Luke 14 : 11. 
Well it started with Russell who had the power and leadership. Then Rutherford whom many 'brothers' hated, and i believe some of them left, but he certainly showed his lust for power. And this lust has remained right through to today. 
Yes, power over 8½ million people, money and fame.  The selling of all the old property in USA brought in so much cash, then building Warwick made them famous, and next is the big 'film studio' they are planning to build.  They are already famous for all the videos etc. 
The Watchtower Study Edition is printed solely for the purpose of dictating to the congregation exactly what it WILL BELIEVE. And it therefor follows it also dictates what JW will preach to others. 
If it is of so little consequence to you then you cannot be a very spiritual person.  BUT IMO it is the True Anointed that will have the true spiritual guidance, not the 'boots on the ground' JWs. 
Really ? How strange. So, did your Baptism include the words I've highlighted in this scripture ?  "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,"  as Jesus instructed and recorded at, Matthew 28 :19. 
As for the rest of your drivel, it's not really worth the time to reply to, just to say that you are obviously a 'company man' doing the will of your GB. You don't seem to have any knowledge of the CSA Earthwide problem, probably because it frightens you. Do you have any knowledge of the 25 year Pedophile Database you GB and their Lawyers are hiding ?  it's all kept hidden from the congregations. If they don't go looking for info' they will never know. 
 

“I quote others only in order the better to express myself.”

― Michel de Montaigne, The Complete Essays

@TrueTomHarley  It appears that the HATRED is coming from you.  This time aimed at Witness. Other times aimed at me or others. 
And @Witness offers her views on spiritual matters far more than you ever do. All you do is promote yourself and your books. 
 
 
 

That last post was as much a bit of self-analysis as it was of anyone else. I'm sure anyone who's been associated has gone through some dark moments.
Reminds me of David, "a man after God's own heart", the beloved and how he actually left to work as a mercenary for the philistine king of Gath when he was being hunted by the anointed of Jehovah - Saul (his dark moments), and how he vowed not to lift up his hand against the anointed of Jehovah, and how Jehovah helped him to fulfill that oath when it seemed he might fail in that regard when he was on his way to fight w/the Philistines when at Aphek the men w/Achish complained and he was sent along w/his men back to where they'd been. This prevented David from being in the battle. But it also may have sent a signal that there might have been a rearward attack which interestingly may have led to Saul's forces not covering the entrance to the Jezreel Valley leading to his ultimate death on Mt Gilboa - Jehovah's judgment.
Some people may feel the need to flee from whatever persecution they may be feeling (whether real or imagined) but leaving the judgment to Jehovah strikes me as the course of wisdom. Even non-JWs like Stephen Covey (I remember an illustration of his) said "chasing the serpent is what drives the poison to the heart".
So maybe you got bit, and maybe you got yourself bit unknowingly by poking your hand into some "hole" the advice not to return evil for evil (or even perceived evil) is good advice for anyone.

Oh my goodness, you have asked this of Witness?
1 I hate the GB
2 I’m a better anointed than they are.
3 I hate the GB
4 I’m a better anointed than they are.
5. I hate the GB
6. I’m a better anointed than they are.
7. I hate the GB
8. I’m a better anointed than they are.
9. I hate the GB
10. I’m a better anointed than they are.
Well, after all, you are new here. And expressing yourself so well.
It is remarkable that, scan her entries as you will, you will find virtually nothing of what she actually believes. All you will find is attacks on the Witness organization.

Fortunately I never acquiesced to any organization. I used my own God-given conscience from the moment I walked into a kingdom hall. Some have left because they felt they needed to, and some have stayed. There is no universal response. It isn't even necessary for me to spend time defending an organization. Instead I'd rather spend it learning more about the Bible, bible history, archaeology, textual analysis and trying to better frame answers which help people who are looking for good answers to the emotional problem of evil. (the logical one already dealt with).
Can a person be a Christian w/o attachment to an organization?
I'm certain they can, but it's quite hard, and then one wonders what the point of it all is if there is not at least one other person? "When two or more are gathered in my name..."
If one does decide to associate in some way with a group, even a nondenominational one, the chances are quite likely these believe, and quite strongly so, that anything you've "learned" in association w/Jehovah's Witnesses is tainted, and needs to be expunged from your mind. (Is literally "everything you learned" wrong?)
There simply aren't any groups of people who won't in one way or another apply pressure to you to believe the things they believe, or remain silent where you don't. The tyrannical elements w/in people are too strong to keep in check. They always surface.
As an exercise, type up your list of core beliefs and compare these to the myriad groups around. Can you find one which accords w/your core beliefs in every way?
If you can, then consider yourself fortunate, because I haven't yet found a person associating w/a religious group yet who embraces fully every thing the "leadership" ("call no one leader, rabbi, father" - Mt 23:8-10) teaches.
Just thinking out loud here, but I think some of the reasons some who have left don't really leave (besides having the annoyance of family members still in) are 1. The time spent is viewed as an investment which didn't pan out as expected and loss aversion is forcing a return (you might think, to one's 'vomit' - Pr. 26:11) ...but it's the economics fallacy of the sunk cost (but consider, was there no gain?) 2. There are no other places where these can go where anyone can even begin to understand what it means to actually BE one of Jehovah's Witnesses - It's a love-hate relationship, and no one in the world can begin to understand if they haven't been there 3. Very close to the previously mentioned...The loss of so much variety and association over years (along with memories that one cannot expunge from one's own head which are so damningly pleasant) which is missed one needs the contact to work out the "poison", to reframe the experiences which are there inside. In this these often find people who will engage them in such a way so as to reinforce the reasons these left.
It's unfortunate that this is what it is. The human condition. Longing for a full realization of a utopia which looks as if it will never come, and damning the mirage for "tricking us" into believing to was real, and not only real, but about to become real for everyone on the planet.
It's difficult for people to leave, no doubt. I've known a few. Some have embraced ideas which they would have strongly objected to on scriptural grounds years ago, some have lost all faith in God and become atheists or agnostics. This is a shame to me. It's like getting so close and because of blemishes real or imagined these abandon all faith, and the beautiful vision of the future under the kingdom. I applaud those who don't lose their faith and perhaps there are quite a number of these - I don't know, but I hope so. I can't help but believe that the lesson of understanding that mistaking an organization for the actualization of God's kingdom is one that these are going to have to learn at some point. When they do, I'm hoping they can let the anger go. If there is discipline to be meted out to organizations or individuals in organizations I'd say to remember Jesus, when he had a dispute w/Satan about the disposition of Moses body - "May Jehovah rebuke you" and if there's rebuking to be done, he'll certainly do it.

An untruth never becomes "brighter".  It is pure darkness. (2 Cor 6:14)  So, if the organization has “not always taught the truth”, it has taught a dark lie.  There is absolutely no light of Christ, in a lie that would hint at the possibility of becoming “brighter”.  
And back to the opening scriptures, “trees” were referred to as God's people under covenant - today, it is those of "Israel", the priesthood. (Matt 7:15-20; Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9)  If an anointed leader of yours has repeatedly taught AND predicted, something that was not the truth; unless he leaves off lying by severing himself from the lying organization, (that to this day supports the previous leaders who spoke their lies), he will always teach lies. He will always produce "bad fruit". 
The organization to this day, does not teach “the truth”.
"bitter"?  Why is it when someone brings Wt's lies to the fore, they are viewed as  "bitter"? 
Listen to Paul, and tell me, were his words bitter?
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. 2 Cor 10:4-6
I am thankful to God and Jesus Christ,  that I am no longer subservient to men, and to their lies. (Isa 51:21-23; Matt 24:48-51; Rev 18:4-8)

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. - Jonah 3 10
God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future? 

A lot of this are what I'd call "Red Herrings". They're the "noble reasons" that the guy in prison gives for why they stabbed the guy. (the truth was the look on the other guys' face)
Let's suppose you're right. That all this was a power issue. Whom did they have power over? What did it get them? Money? Fame? It wasn't until much later that I even knew any of their names. I could have cared less.
I never once believed something because the organization said something was so. I never burned a pinch of incense to them. I read their arguments and some of them I agreed with completely and others I could see multiple ways. I didn't see the point with arguing about "tabs vs spaces" as it all compiled the same. I wasn't baptized into the WTS.
Now to current issues. I do think that the issues w/pedophiles and the like is extremely important. I don't think any JW doesn't think it's important. How each case was handled? I don't know. How the organization has handled it - probably could have done it differently and they certainly know it now.
Was the issue the "two witness"rule? Perhaps, and this is where you have to ask whether this was taken in the wrong context and it created this situation. To me it always seemed a matter of principal, that you didn't convict someone w/o good evidence, not a literal reading of the mosaic law that you had to have two witnesses.
Does the fault lie with a corporation, or with individuals and individual congregations?
It's being treated as a corporate crime and I know people have been hurt. Clearly this isn't just an issue w/JW's but also w/any group as the problem is a problem w/in society as a whole.
Did we expect to remain untouched by the problems in the world? I'd say that would be unrealistic.
I know that the training we had as well as the reporting was in our case always above board and legal and ethical. There was a case once where a young man about 15 was over at another families house and something happened with another young girl who was also underage, maybe 13 at a pool party. How was it handled? The police were called, and they investigated. That body investigated the circumstances as well. Nothing legal ever took place and the young man never had any further issues, though he changed congregations.  About 15 years after this he was being considered as an MS. Well this family heard of it and raised a stink. We had a meeting and some of the brothers seemed to not understand the issues here. 1. This was looked at by the police. 2. This was over a decade ago. 3. He had no contact w/the family or girl since that time. Yet some imagined we needed to examine this over again. I had to underscore that the "issue" was the issue of slander, not this thing which was investigated years ago. 
 
He did get an appointment and he's married and doing well as far as I know. The other family hasn't fared so well. Was this all the fault of the 15 year old boy invited to a poorly supervised pool party? That doesn't seem reasonable.
On the other hand continued abuse and neglect of serious situations clearly have taken place and been grossly mishandled. I can't imagine the suffering that these have had to deal with and no JW I know would want any of this to take place - yet it isn't outside the realm of possibility that corrupt elders and other corrupt people will find a home somewhere. You can see them looking sometimes to check out a congregation to see its spirit to see if this is a place where they can get away with things. No doubt some find a "home". It's terrible. You can have CO's who travel and they're supposed to check up on things and elders and elder bodies can disguise what's happening. That can happen.
What does this mean? To me it means people are imperfect, some are evil and some are imperfect and evil and you may even run into them in the congregation. You get the sense of who a bro or sister is by a lot of things, and people gravitate towards the ones they resonate with. That's why you have to keep an eye on yourself and your brother.
I remember one older elder grabbed me and took me into a room (I wondered why) and it was because he was accosted by this DF'ed sister who wanted to talk to him (he said he made a rule never to be alone w/a woman not his wife) and I thought that wise.

Everyone has to decide. Do they want to go it alone and try to be a Christian by themselves for fear that the contact with others or an imperfect organization will taint them? Turn them from the way? Or, do they want to be part of a group with whom they are in the most agreement that they can be recognizing that all these things which are wrong in human society can also be wrong and will be wrong in that group?

@xero Wow the organisation have trained you well in their twisting of scripture and their sly lying ways.
Lets take for example the 'Faithful and discreet Slave' 
Up until 2013 (I think) ALL of the Anointed were classed as the F&DS. But then wow, suddenly ONLY THE GB  are the F&DS.
So, tell me how your GB got this message from God ?  Relate this to your cat nonsense. Where is ANY PROOF that your GB are the F&DS ?  Why did your GB suddenly demote the rest of the Anointed ones ?  
Now another example, the 'Superior Authorties' of Romans. How did your Org / Watchtower get the false message from God saying that the SA was no longer the Governments / Leaders of this world, but suddenly became God and Christ ? 
WHY WOULD GOD TELL A LIE ? Answer is God did not lie. The Leaders of your Org / W/t LIED because they wanted power over the whole congregation. They did not get any message from God.
And now your GB admit that they are not inspired of Holy Spirit, but they use this confession only as an excuse for the lies they've told and continue to tell. 
One of the main reasons your GB are so guilty of lies is, as I've mentioned, that they say they are the F&DS. By saying that, they are saying they are the 'vioce' / spokesperson of God through Christ. That is blasphamy, and they continue to prove so by their dishonest immoral behavior. 
The GB's attitude concerning Child Sexual Abuse within the Watchtower / JW Org proves they have no love for God, Christ or people. Your GB are a total disgrace, but of course they will have their judgemnet soon. 
 

Huh,  It brings the money in. Frighten people into the congregation, then tell those people to 'support' the Org.  They send out Witnesses into the 'field' to tell people the doom story. "You must enter the JW Org to be saved".  
YES You know that and I know that BUT it seems the GB and their helpers don't want to know that.  
The difference being that the Leaders of the Watchtower / Org  'cry wolf'  around every ten years or so. Hence the previous cry has been forgotten and it is a different 'audience' listening to the 'new cry'.  

Wasn't the Apostle Paul and/or some of the other Apostles, Tent makers ?
So they too would have had two roles, one spiritual to serve God through Christ, one practical to earn the money they needed to live.