Patiently waiting for Truth

Yes I agree with what others have said true we are no part of the world when it involves political issues. We model Jesus but we do pay taxes and receive services so the census is an official document to ensure the monies are distributed appropriately.  Yes we fill out the census it doesn’t conflict with worship. 

Sadly, her viewpoint is fanatical. Perhaps one of the questions will be: What religion do you belong to. Then she may not deny the truth, give a testimony, and say she is a JW. :))

Why did you have to post it.  Just read Romans chapter 13 and see that Christians are supposed to cooperate with the Government where they live.  They are not uncooperative or ungovernable, they are spectacles to angels and men - in other words good examples.
 

You did. You asked real politely and I’m a little ashamed of myself for being so curt. 
On the other hand, you reached exactly the same conclusion you would have had I been more cooperative, so I don’t know what you have to complain about.
It is possible to be too transparent, you know.

I’m not going to clarify anything just so whatever clarification I give you will declare wrong, as you do with JWI.   Let the context of the remark itself be your “clarification.”

The thing about it is I agree mostly with much of your arguments, but not the fluff that comes with it. Yes, the mistakes will be taken care of by the One who this earthly administration part belongs to. And those 'anointed' are not judging anything or anyone now in this system of things. Jesus' death was not caused by his rising up against the religious system that had failed Jehovah. It's failure which Jesus brought out showed them their own misgivings, and the way and the truth and the life which they missed totally! Yes, our organization has faults, the people are imperfect still, being anointed has not taken that away. When this began there were only 11, then some 3000 were baptized, were each of them chosen by Jehovah to be part of the heavenly class that day? Or were they selected out of the world different than those who believed the gods of this world, making a distinction as the congregation grew and the selection as scripture teaches is by Jehovah, 144,000 since 33 CE? My organization is imperfect, I am imperfect, but so was Noah, would I hold that against him and not get aboard the ark? Leave because of their imperfections? This is not their organization, it is run by Jesus for Jehovah. When Eli's sons were doing their dirt, Samuel was aware of all that was going on, who brought an end to it? The same will happen today. If what you rant about is true then the words of the prophet Micah should hold true, it does for me at 7:7,  "But as for me, it is for Jehovah that I shall keep on the lookout. I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me." That is my mantra. Always!  Like Koran rises up against the man, forgetting he was anointed, inspired by the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. The same is true here. If these men, whom you so disdain are wanting, Jehovah will remove them forever, you will be right. But if you are incorrect.........my,my,my!

Even were there something objectionable about it, it only does leave a bad taste to you. There are only two notable participants here, maybe four altogether, not counting yourself. Do you think every other Witness in the world  is on the edge of their seat cheering, booing, approving, or disapproving?
In fact, let this be a test. Anyone reading this, respond in some way—upvote, downvote, laugh, frown—doesn’t matter—and I don’t want them all to be you. 
My guess is that people have far more to do with their time so that it is not necessary for you to scold ones who comment on things you find uninteresting.

Whatever perception that is will be solved when they learn to mind their own business, as we are all advised to do.
Just how do they do that? Are we to believe that the Wt expects people to eat Bible sandwiches 24/7? I think not. It is indulging an interest that is going on here, that is all, same as if brothers were working on a souped-up stock car, and trading shop-talk back and forth.
There are 8.6 million Witnesses in the world. Whatever two or three of them may being doing does not sink the ship.
Besides, for me, a hidden delight is to see that other yo-yo clucking his tongue at those showing an interest in “worldly politics.” I’ve known many brothers to take an interest in history. What are current events other than history in the making? Frankly, I have learned more here on the subject, in a condensed version, from the interplay of two with decidedly different experiences and viewpoints, than I have learned anywhere else.
An added benefit to me is that it validates the verse: “let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar.” There is not a position on earth that cannot produce reams of research to validate its view.

It seems that some JWs are taking a great interest in worldly politics, Eastern mentality and Communism. So I thought I would compare the same to the CCJW aka JW Org aka Watchtower.  @TrueTomHarley   Quote "The group is more important than the individual,‘ is the Eastern mentality going back thousands of years, grounded in Confucianism. The individual rights, even needs, are subservient to the group in such a culture. "
subservient = prepared to obey others unquestioningly.   
I didn't realise that the CCJW was grounded in Confucianism.  The Org is more important than the individual. 
@Arauna Quote "The greater good of all is more important than the individual.  So a central government can force any law on you for the greater good of society".
Yes definitely the GB of the CCJW.
'central government ' = Governing Body....     'society' = Watchtower Society
Please compare :- 
IICSA Inquiry https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20895/view/public-hearing-transcript-11-august-2020.pdf
A question put to the CCJW 
Page 41.  Lines :- 
21 Could I just ask, what do you mean by that? Does
22 that mean that the individual must be subjected to the
23 whole? So the interests of the congregation are more
24 important than the interests of the individual?
Do you see the connection here ? It is asking the same as I am asking. Please relate this to Tom's comment top of page 
"The group is more important than the individual,‘  The individual rights, even needs, are subservient to the group in such a culture. "
And @Arauna "The greater good of all is more important than the individual'
I think people with spiritual wisdom will note the very close similarity here. 
 
 
 
 
 

Mr Gillies was asked if his religion's policies made provision to apologise for child sexual abuse where there is institutional fault. His answer was, "No". The group asks, how can any organisation move forward willingly in child-focused safeguarding if it cannot conceive of the need to apologise for its failings? 

Summing up today Friday 14th August 2020 
https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/21108/view/public-hearing-transcript-14-august-2020.pdf
I turn to the Jehovah's Witnesses. As we will set out in our written submissions, we feel that much of  the evidence from Mr Gillies was evasive and misleading.  In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, he tried to tell you that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't  have any arrangements or activities which separate children from their parents, whether in field service or  Bible study or elsewhere. He used this obvious untruth to justify rejecting any secular advice on safeguarding. 
It was notable just how many pretexts the Jehovah's Witnesses will find not to report abuse or to disclose documents, and we heard more about that obstructionism this morning. The only reasonable conclusion from this litany of excuses is that they simply do not want to report. Mr Gillies was also very discomforted quite clearly by Mr Frank's questions about document destruction.
Child sexual abuse is abuse, whether it is perpetrated by an elder or an ordinary member of the congregation, whether in a Kingdom Hall or in a home. By permitting CCJW to present their data so selectively, we are concerned that hundreds, if not thousands, of abuse cases were effectively excluded from consideration. The many victims whose abuse is currently confined to Watchtower's records, especially those whose abuse is yet to be reported, remain completely silenced. Chair, if you fail to seek disclosure of the full data, you unwittingly make things worse for survivors than if you had sought no data at all. Cherry-picked figures -- which the  Jehovah's Witnesses repeatedly, and wrongly, characterised as the full figures during this hearing will, we fear, in future be touted by them as the actual figures and they will try to say that they have your stamp of approval.

What sort of record is needed to validate that a person is preaching about God and Christ? A filled-out time slip for men to record, which benefits only the organization? Do scriptures back up this "tradition"?   Those are rules of men. God doesn’t need a time slip; only men who judge one’s spiritual worthiness, need it.   How many JW's here, count their time when speaking to an exjw?     It doesn't take an organization, it doesn't take rules and regulations by men, to speak about God and Jesus.   If we have to be spoon-fed, rule upon rule on how to preach, it is not the Holy Spirit that is directing that sort of preaching work.  If we have to submit any time that we have accrued for what you call, "preaching the good news",  it is the influence of scheming leaders who feel they must know what you are doing, and not doing, for the sake of the organization. 
"Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:  “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?  These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.  Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."  Col 2:20-23 
There were believers of Christ among rulers in the days of the Pharisees, but they couldn't make the break and follow only Christ.  They were slaves to men, and feared for their immediate role of leadership and prestige among their people.  They feared being thrown out of the synagogue, and losing everything and everyone they knew.  Every JW is aware of what they will lose if they refuse to follow the organization’s guidelines. 
Can our heart be manipulated by wickedness and the dominance of others?  Most certainly.
“For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.”  Acts 20:29,30
 Just because the WT touts to "preach" worldwide, does not mean that the organization is "the truth".
Either we genuinely believe in Christ and follow him, or we hypocritically believe in an organization, and follow it.   
“But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
2 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.  John 12:37-43
All JWs, strive for the praise of men.
Synagogue – “congregation/ assembly”
 
 
 
 

God is incompetent is what you are saying—his holy spirit incapable of motivating peope to do his will.
Really?

The evidence is in.  I actually do NOT believe in labels because it dehumanizes but the hate-behavior is so repetitive it actually dehumanizes the person himself. 

You can’t “compare” because you don’t anything about the first topic, and you appear to think it is a sin to find out.. So how are you going to “compare?” You wouldn’t even know that Eastern culture emphasizes group if I hadn’t had said so. 
Your knowledge of the first topic is zilch, and your knowledge of the second is so tainted by childish petulance and manifest ill-will that it is not far from zilch. So I (and probably I can speak for @Arauna, too) don’t appreciate being summoned before a master of ceremonies who doesn’t know anything.
It was a trolling comment when you put it on @JW Insider’s  thread, where it had absolutely no place and was just inserted to insult people who hold to your old faith. Rebuked for putting it there, you now put it here? Do it without involving Aruana and me, for your zero knowledge of the “worldly politics” you wish to compare  doesn’t increase just because you have entered a different room.

@JW Insider Comment removed, new topic started. 

Actually it is also taught in communism.... so this social engineering into a form of collectivism is not called cultural communism for nothing. The greater good of all is more important than the individual.  So a central government can force any law on you for the greater good of society.  
I believe in self-sacrificing love but natural law says - I must give it willingly.  Willingly give up my material stuff and willingly sacrifice myself for the greater good of all.  It must not be forced on me by someone who thinks they have a higher morality than God himself. 
Our natural rights come from Jehovah. Just being born gives it to you.  The right to own your own body and choose what goes into it and the freedom to choose whom you will serve (spiritually) in your home. I will obey the government whatever they ask (even share my stuff) but I will not allow them to put blood or any other substance which could change my mental capacity into my body.  No-one will force me to vote or show allegiance to a political party or its symbolism.  This, I think will become an issue under UN and its allies. 

Chivchalov made a similar point about Russia. ‘Why doesn’t the outcry of human rights organizations have more effect to alleviate the persecution of our people?” I asked him. “Because they [Russian human rights people] are too few, and besides, Russia views human rights organizations as largely a tool of Western meddling, he said.
In the end, these have the most credibility to us, and from this one may extrapolate into situations not involving JWs. Any other testimony from any other source is subject to revisionists claiming it was faked or skewed or misleading or incomplete—it may or may not be true—but with JWs that will not be the case. Why? Essentially, it is because we know the integrity of our people. We know that when they tell of what happened to them, it happened to them. We know of their indifference to politics. We know how they interact with the governments of whatever country they are in: “Find out what the king wants for social order, and then do it. That way, he will leave us in peace to worship God.” Witnesses don’t care about changing the government, and everyone knows it.
For the most part, this works well in all countries except for authoritarian ones. “We are not in America,” the cops told our brothers while beating them.” (I think it was in Surgut) When our own human rights are treated with such disdain, I can accept that it happens to others, even if political biases may skew reports this way or that.
With regard to communism, I’ve no doubt that human rights groups do not identify with “the good that we are trying to achieve here” and in some cases, have achieved  They focus on “Bill of Rights“ type of human rights—freedom of speech, of worship, of assembly, of press, of protection from search and seizure.” They do not call out the West for manipulative or predatory economic policy. But then, to my knowledge, they don’t do that to the East, either. It is not the type of rights violation that they are into. Maybe they should be, so as to be more “even-handed,” but they don’t. To that extent, I guess it is fair to say that they do have Western leaning. 
‘The group is more important than the individual,‘ is the Eastern mentality going back thousands of years, grounded in Confucianism. The individual rights, even needs, are subservient to the group in such a culture. In the West, it has been the opposite—rights and needs of the individual override that of the group—and human rights groups identify with the latter orientation

"Keep on the watch" is the best advice, for so many things (everything) in the people's life. 
In the past WTJWorg said how time will come when "preaching" will be stopped, just before Armageddon. But it was never said, as i can recall, how Covid 19 or similar "unconscious" cause/condition (wars, famines, earthquakes, etc.) would do that.
Soon Jehovah will decide to stop the preaching of the good news and “the end” will come. (Matthew 24:14) - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015149
Of course, WT publish company using word "soon" so often and for few things about "the end" of the World, for decades, almost for whole century and half, in fact. Well, we have almost dubious situation about claim how GB/FDS in WTJWorg is God's Spoke Person here on Earth who is sole "channel" in warning people to "keep on watch", as they claim.
But this sort of "keep on watch" is/was inside WTJWorg interpretations what this Jesus' words supposedly have to mean and when meaning of this words is at "right place" and in "right time". And they (GB) failed so many times. If GB is only spoke person for god on earth, than this mean how JHVH decision about moment when "preaching will stop" shall come from GB. But they not sending such direct message. Mass sale of real estate can be sort of "message"in that direction, but can be "announcement"  for something else too. Title of WT article down/below and WTJWorg moves are significant in current events about CSA.
 
Love People, Not Money and Possessions
 Secret 1
Love People, Not Money and Possessions
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH? “The love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things.”—1 Timothy 6:10. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101101/Love-People-Not-Money-and-Possessions/

If 144000 are "Kings" and "Priests", than Kingdom which started in 33 or in 1914 is not complete or legal enough without all "governors" as members of government or administration. If Jesus is able, entitled to make decisions and to rule without 144000 now, today, than he is capable to doing this in the future too. In that respect 144000 is not necessary to participate in administration in the "heaven" or on the "earth".

Bart comes from an evangelical background. In his blog, he speaks rather poignantly of tragically losing his faith, something that happened once he began to examine the Bible through “critical thinking.” 
He never had a firm foundation to stand on. I would lose my faith, too, if I had to uphold all the nonsense that is part and parcel of church teaching. One can almost feel sorry for him—but one does not, because he does not feel sorry for himself. He has a good gig going—top selling author, nifty website with a paywall that donates to charity, a reputation that prompts the Great Courses Lecture series to engage him as a professor, chair of a university religion department, where he destroys the faith of his students—but since it was founded mostly on the doctrines of churches, it was barely defensible in the first place. No, he has a good gig. Nobody has asked me to chair a Great Courses series, nor (I assume) you.
If not atheist, he certainly is hard-agnostic, unless he has had a recent change of heart. I often wonder what would have happened if those now atheist had been presented accurate Christian teachings first—would they have gone atheist in that case? A naive me once assumed that the answer would be no. 
Sometimes it does work that way, but these are crazy times, and if you keep up with atheists, you find that they are likely to detest JWs most of all! It does not help that JWs have “accurate” Bible teachings. The allure of breaking free from any “control” is just too enticing to be countered by a fresh look at Bible teachings. There is no way that those on the “cramped and narrow road” are not going to be derided as “cult” members by those on the broad and spacious one. This is so predictable that I kick myself for not having predicted it long before—it is so obvious. 
To break free of “control” holds irresistible appeal today, and the atheists add (and even put foremost) those who would claim to represent God, as our brothers do, “controlling “ people by that means.. So, to them, JWs are the worst of the lot, because most churches have watered down “speaking in God’s name” to “God works in mysterious ways,” and have pretty much learned to roll with whatever happens, being content to add a smiling “God” emoji to events. Most have made their peace with the world—they seek to hopefully modify it for the better, and think the view of JWs far too extreme—even “murderous”—that God means to replace it. 
I see happening in these threads that 4Jah hopes I will comment on—but I probably won’t because they are “same-old same-old,” and few, if anyone, had written on the topic more that me, it forming a significant portion of ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates’—I see arguments included that are irrelevant to the topic of concern, such as how various ex-JWs strive to present the picture that obedience “to men” is essential if you are a JW, how they are under enormous pressure always from top leaders, and how JWs terrify children with expectations of Armaggedon. (How about when Newsweek surveys the world scene, and presents the magazine cover “What the *@#! Is Next?” I countered.)
The “obedience” that JWs are expected to render is no more than following directions of the teacher, the coach, the mentor, the employer, the counselor, the traffic cop—something that was once the most unremarkable thing in the world, but is now presented as selling out one’s soul. JWs have not changed—the world has. One may look no farther than it’s collective response to Covid 19 to see what chaos follows. Mark Benioff, the Salesforce founder, the fellow who purchased Time Magazine, has stated that if everyone had masked up for just three weeks, the virus would have been defeated. Of course, this is what JWs have done, because being obedient to authority is not an issue for them, but the illness is out of control today because the world ridicules obedience and challenges the authority of any who would advance it. The very first sign that this would escalate to disaster occurred very early on—when toilet paper sold out, despite knowledge that the virus doesn’t hit people that way. I told Hassan, the CultExpert, he of the “FreedomofMind” hashtag, that my people have behaved far more responsibly than his—you don’t think some will use their “freedom of mind” to tell the government where they can go with their “rules?”
It doesn’t matter if the world’s obsession with “independence” ends in disaster—as it surely will—as it is with Covid 19. To be free of “control” is just too strong a pull. Those on the broad and spacious road—that’s what makes it broad and spacious, ones on it listen to no one but themselves—will invariably present those on the cramped and narrow road as manipulated by a cult.

@4Jah2me https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/10/former-jehovahs-witness-elders-call-for-mandatory-reporting-of-child-sexual-abuse
Former Jehovah's Witness elders call for mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse
Two former Jehovah’s Witness elders have called for mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, saying the organisation believes it is “answerable only to God”.
Duncan Corbett, who was an elder for 18 years, told the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse that the protection of minors and the handling of abuse claims must be taken out of the church’s hands. “Let them deal with the sin and the authorities handle the crime,” he told a hearing in London.
Lloyd Evans, another former elder who now campaigns against religious fundamentalism, said: “This is a group that feels they are answerable only to God … They don’t feel as though they need to yield to any regulations that are imposed on them.”
The pair, along with another former Jehovah’s Witness and a survivor of abuse, Sarah Davies, painted a picture in evidence to the inquiry of an organisation that demanded that its leaders be unquestioningly respected and obeyed, and that shunned members who failed to comply with its strict codes.
 

I enjoy Sunday drives.... 😉 

@Arauna Very interesting detail. Thanks for sharing.
@4Jah2me Nice car!  and kudos on the exercise.  I need to do more of that... and less eating myself.

1961
I'm also surprised at the extensive use of old English throughout the film. Most likely due to everyone back then linking the King James Bible and the old English used within it.
I wonder if younger English speakers today can understand them?