Patiently waiting for Truth

@John Houston Am I of the Anointed you ask.  I don't think I am, but it does seem I have more of a Christian Bible trained  conscience than most JWs have. 
It is only your opinion that I have 'anger and frustration'. Though do tell me what hating immorality has to do with " wanting the greater of position, not having a humble heart as Jesus tried to teach them.". Using your idea here it would look as if Jesus didn't have a humble heart because he certainly told the Pharisees their faults.
Your question "Could you have done a better job with this matter of child abuse if you had the authority?"
Yes I could have done a better job, and i would have done a better job at it too. I wouldn't have hid any of it. Do you remember the Apostle Paul making it clear about the man that was having sex with his own father's wife. And he told the congregation to sort it out. Paul didn't mince his words and didn't hide anything either. 
Your questions " The 'anointed' would be judges, correct? But not now in this system right?
Actually I think the True Anointed (which does not include the GB) should be judges now in some capacity.  BUT, instead the ELDERS and the Circuit Overseers act as judges now. Who is it that disfellowships congregants ? THEY are the ones who are acting as judges now. BUT it is not the Anointed doing it, it is the Elders who act as judges now. And do you think the Elders are closer to God and Christ than the Anointed ?  So that the Elders should be judges ? 
And unfortunately you copy all other JWs with this wrong idea about Moses. MOSES was INSPIRED OF GOD. Your GB, their helpers, the Elders et al, are NOT Inspired by God. 
Those MEN in authority in the CCJW / Watchtower Soc' are put in place by other men. It is all the work of MEN. None of them are inspired. None of them are spirit led.  How can i tell ? By Their Works You Will Know Them.
Your words "Jesus knew the Jewish system was a failure, but while here he did not rise against it, 
The Jewish System was put in place by GOD. And in fact Jesus was put to death because HE did rise against it. Jesus made clear its faults. Jesus made clear those whom were not serving God properly. Jesus started the NEW way of serving God.  BUT the CCJW / Watchtower does not compare to the Jewish system of things. Looking at the history of the 'Org' it has told lies from the very beginning. It has made false 'predictions' and spread false prophecies. It has used fear to almost force people to serve the Organisation. The ongoing threat that "Unless you are a baptised JW you will die at Armageddon".  The GB exalting themselves to the position of being the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and then telling other Anointed not to meet together or they would be 'working against he holy spirit'. If you cannot see all that as wrong then you seem to have lost your direction. Maybe you are in your comfort zone. 
Almighty God, working through Christ, will surprise all JWs quite soon I believe. God and Christ have two choices. They can either cleanse the CCJW, or, they can start a new organisation using the True Anointed. If they cleanse the CCJW it would seem the GB would have to be removed and replaced with True Anointed ones. The new Anointed Servants may well come from around the Earth, not from America. 
'World conditions' are obviously getting much worse. Armageddon must be getting closer day by day. So I cannot see God or Christ letting the CCJW carry on as they are for much longer. The scripture at Luke 17 v 1&2
Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! 2  It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.
Th GB and their helpers are the 'causes for stumbling'. The Child Sexual Abuse / Paedophilia in the CCJW is a cause for stumbling. The lack of apology and not wanting to give compensation is a cause of stumbling. The GB telling the Anointed not to spend time together is a cause for stumbling. The GB stating that the Anointed would be 'working against the holy spirit' is a cause for stumbling and probably an insult to God and Christ. 
I think you are too close to the 'Org' to see its faults. I think JWs are blind to God's standards because JWs follow the GB's rules and standards. Just take a hour of your time to stand back and see the reality. Do research and see what people are saying. 
(I wonder if the Librarian will make this a new topic)
 
 
 

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf
✔@InquiryCSA The transcript for Day 12 of the Child Protection in #ReligiousOrganisationsandSettings public hearing has now been published: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf …

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf
✔@InquiryCSA The transcript for Day 12 of the Child Protection in #ReligiousOrganisationsandSettings public hearing has now been published: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf …

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jehovahs-witness-child-abuse-sex-18717755
"My mother... she's sacrificing me to gain eternal life"
I've put just a few of the paragraphs here, but read the whole thing please if you have time.  
PLUS it seems the IICSA MEETING is TODAY 10TH AUGUST 2020
 
A boy forced himself on me when I was younger," she says, almost apologetically. "I told my mother and she said I needed to tell the elders. So I went to them and explained what had happened. I was 16 and I was reproved even though it wasn't my fault.
"The questions about what I was wearing and whether I enjoyed it were so violating and so degrading. My mother said if I'd been more immersed in the Jehovah's Witnesses then it would never had happened."
------------------------------
"It was that murky line between putting your foot down and saying no you can't see your grandchildren and trying to maintain some sort of contact," said Sian. But when her children came home with tales that nan was saying their mum was going to die, she put her foot down.
-------------------------------
Sian's story is one of hundreds that have come to light in recent years, prompting concerns of prevalent sex abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses. Stories of abuse within religious groups are not limited to the Jehovah's Witnesses however, an issue which has led to The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) being formed.
Chaired by Professor Alexis Jay OBE, the inquiry was set up because of serious concerns that some organisations had failed and were continuing to fail to protect children. Also attended by the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church, the opening statements in the inquiry were read out on March 16 right before Covid-19 struck.
Representatives of other religions apologised for shortfalls within their organisations. Shane Brady, counsel for the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, did not. He stuck closely to his well-prepared outline, failing to express any collective regret. Not even at that moment did he acknowledge that child sexual abuse had happened among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Lockdown delayed subsequent, more extensive evidence-giving until this month and on August 10 the inquiry resumes. On Monday morning, former Jehovah's Witness Sarah Davies will present evidence to the inquiry about the mishandling of child sex abuse cases within the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Originally from Cardiff, Sarah will present evidence that has been collectively submitted by the group Ex-JW Advocates Opposing Crimes Against Children. 
 
In an open letter addressed to "The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK", survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses from across the country have demanded an apology.
They say: "We, the survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses, seek a public apology; we invite you to “say sorry” on behalf of your UK religious organisation, for your inadequate policies which have failed to protect us and the wider public from perpetrators of child sex abuse.
"During the ongoing sex abuse inquiry in England and Wales by IICSA four religious institutions, including Jehovah’s Witnesses on August 10, have the opportunity to go on public record with an apology; we ask you to admit that you are among the institutions that have let children down in the past and substantiate your claim to “abhor child abuse” with a contrite apology, as other religious institutions have done, rather than claim that you “do not have the institutional settings” to merit being investigated by IICSA."
A spokesman for the Jehovah's Witnesses said: "An explanation of our beliefs and policies will be presented during the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jehovahs-witness-child-abuse-sex-18717755
"My mother... she's sacrificing me to gain eternal life"
I've put just a few of the paragraphs here, but read the whole thing please if you have time.  
PLUS it seems the IICSA MEETING is TODAY 10TH AUGUST 2020
 
A boy forced himself on me when I was younger," she says, almost apologetically. "I told my mother and she said I needed to tell the elders. So I went to them and explained what had happened. I was 16 and I was reproved even though it wasn't my fault.
"The questions about what I was wearing and whether I enjoyed it were so violating and so degrading. My mother said if I'd been more immersed in the Jehovah's Witnesses then it would never had happened."
------------------------------
"It was that murky line between putting your foot down and saying no you can't see your grandchildren and trying to maintain some sort of contact," said Sian. But when her children came home with tales that nan was saying their mum was going to die, she put her foot down.
-------------------------------
Sian's story is one of hundreds that have come to light in recent years, prompting concerns of prevalent sex abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses. Stories of abuse within religious groups are not limited to the Jehovah's Witnesses however, an issue which has led to The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) being formed.
Chaired by Professor Alexis Jay OBE, the inquiry was set up because of serious concerns that some organisations had failed and were continuing to fail to protect children. Also attended by the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church, the opening statements in the inquiry were read out on March 16 right before Covid-19 struck.
Representatives of other religions apologised for shortfalls within their organisations. Shane Brady, counsel for the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, did not. He stuck closely to his well-prepared outline, failing to express any collective regret. Not even at that moment did he acknowledge that child sexual abuse had happened among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Lockdown delayed subsequent, more extensive evidence-giving until this month and on August 10 the inquiry resumes. On Monday morning, former Jehovah's Witness Sarah Davies will present evidence to the inquiry about the mishandling of child sex abuse cases within the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Originally from Cardiff, Sarah will present evidence that has been collectively submitted by the group Ex-JW Advocates Opposing Crimes Against Children. 
 
In an open letter addressed to "The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK", survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses from across the country have demanded an apology.
They say: "We, the survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses, seek a public apology; we invite you to “say sorry” on behalf of your UK religious organisation, for your inadequate policies which have failed to protect us and the wider public from perpetrators of child sex abuse.
"During the ongoing sex abuse inquiry in England and Wales by IICSA four religious institutions, including Jehovah’s Witnesses on August 10, have the opportunity to go on public record with an apology; we ask you to admit that you are among the institutions that have let children down in the past and substantiate your claim to “abhor child abuse” with a contrite apology, as other religious institutions have done, rather than claim that you “do not have the institutional settings” to merit being investigated by IICSA."
A spokesman for the Jehovah's Witnesses said: "An explanation of our beliefs and policies will be presented during the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse."

Too late. I just tried to leave the house and my head got stuck in the door jamb.
Of course not. I’m amazed you can do what you do. No complaints here at all. I thank you for providing such a forum and being so indulgent with characters like me who push the bounds frequently.

You are correct about my inconsistency. I am no able to police every thread and I am often drawn to yours since I like your writing style.  
 
don’t let that go to your head. 🙂

If they join the club, or even better follow you, the will be notified via email when you post something.  
 
posting everything inside a busy thread isn’t a good idea. 
 
how would you prefer we do it? Just let everyone talk about whatever they want on just one topic?

Nothing wrong with that in my view. Not draconian. Maybe I should have started my own new topic. The reason I didn’t is that people (such as yourself) do not see new topics and have to ask where they are. Also, plenty of others chime in at will with non-sequitors—the old pork chop was adamant that was the best way—so if they can do it, so can I. Besides, didn’t JWI praise me in an earlier comment for bringing his thread back on topic? The old hen didn’t see fit it acknowledge THAT, did she? Maybe I will join 4Jah and Cesar in dark muttering about how some people get all the breaks, like ...ahem....”ex-Bethelites”...while other truth tellers, even those with ‘true’ as part of their username, get sent to the woodshed!
Never fear. Not to worry. Right in my post I said I have no problem were it switched, and it should be and has been. I figured it was JWI that did it, but it seems it was @The Librarian. All is well.
Plus, as a bonus, 4Jah jumps in with the only topic he knows, a topic he tries to make the lead topic anywhere, but there is no way he can do it with a secular discussion of China. He may not even know where China is and, at any rate, seems to think it wrong for a Christian to know anything other than the Bible. His topic isn’t relevant here, either, but he imagines he can get away with it without being assigned a separate thread, as he should be. Meanwhile, I get to write up a refined post on the Time Magazine/Ehrman article, building upon what is already said, and even benefiting from feedback from some of his dopey remarks. When done, I’ll put it on my blog and here if it is not too repetitious.

Speaking of the mark of the beast. 
 
have you tried Virginia honey roasted ham? So delicious.  
 
shall we share recipes?

Originally I wanted just TomHarley as a username, but it was already taken. I thought of RealTomHarley, but it sounds too much like Trump. So I settled on TrueTomHarley. I never intended the moral implications that the name carries—that was just an unanticipated plus.

Fear not, the comment is here: 
 
Plus, you-know-who has joined in—the prospect of which probably contributed to my comment’s removal. Note how he broods that comments on “worldly” topics such as the discussion here is part of an evil smokescreen.

It seems they have removed True Tom Hartley's last comment to another thread?  Like any conversation, it does deviate a bit and then come back...to the main subject...... so  What is the purpose of the strict enforcement of draconian rules? 

All one has to do is read this sample statement of Bart already quoted:
“Most people today would be surprised to learn that Jesus believed in a bodily eternal life here on earth, instead of eternal bliss for souls, but even more that he did not believe in hell as a place of eternal torment.”
Why would they be “surprised?” Because such things were never taught, despite a multitude of scholars most churches defer to. Instead, the near-universal teaching of church Christianity is that when you die, you go to heaven if you were good, and hell if you were bad. That is what just about everyone of “Christian” background thought before becoming a Witness, because apart from some occasional deviation on some minor point, that is what nearly all churches taught.
I have said since that, given the universality of the heaven/hell teaching, you would almost expect it to be on every other page of the Bible. Instead, apart from a handful of verses that can be tortured for that meaning, one never encounters it. Bart says something similar in his article, which I did not quote above: 
“There are over two billion Christians in the world, the vast majority of whom believe in heaven and hell. You die and your soul goes either to everlasting bliss or torment (or purgatory en route). ...The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught.”
You have forgotten entirely the typical experience of most who become Witnesses, excepting only those born into the faith, of amazement at learning the truth of the scriptures for the first time. Some of them had made a lifelong search, and the crystal clear explanations of the Witnesses they had not seen anywhere else. I will grant that there may be a few quirky backwater faiths that have a piece or two of it, but nobody that has put it all together into a coherent whole. That typical experience is where the expression “coming into the truth” originates. It is an expression still in common use by Witnesses, and used no where else that I know of. Nobody says they have “come into the truth“ when they become a Methodist, for instance
There was a pesty fellow who used to challenge me a lot on trinity and other church teachings. One day he sent me a video of “4 famous church leaders“ hubbubing in conference, which he said acknowledged that everlasting life on earth was known to them, too, as the Bible hope—it wasn’t just JWs who taught it. I told him I’d take his word for it. Though these leaders knew and discussed it, this fellow pointed out, the problem was “Bible illiteracy” among the masses, he said. 
If the problem is Bible literacy among the masses, I replied, why don’t they fix it? Isn’t that their job as leaders? Our religion manages to keep its people on the same page.
No, this accurate take on scripture is not found just anywhere, for anyone to pick up on. In its entirety, it is found in only one place. You must have known that at one time, if you became a Witness in the usual way. But I fear, in harping on human imperfection, you have long ago gone the path of Titus 1:15:
“All things are clean to clean people, but to those who are defiled and faithless, nothing is clean, for both their minds and their consciences are defiled.” You just keep harping on one thing, and so plainly can’t see the forest for the trees. 
Unfortunately, you have shown time and again that you cannot.
You would never have found it on your own. You would have been thoroughly flummoxed by church doctrine that sweeps away the verse as though it Is nothing. An evangelical relative of mine, for example, attributes it to Solomon losing God’s spirit as he started multiplying wives for himself and saying some sour things that he would never say were he in his right mind.
Your typical oversimplification of everything means that you miss most points:
I never said that. I said just the opposite:
Okay? He didn’t “copy.”
Technically, he’s doing nothing wrong—if indeed, he is doing what I theorize.

@TrueTomHarley @TrueTomHarley Yes I'd noticed that JWs on here were creating a smoke screen by talking about China etc, instead of looking at the faults in the CCJW and the problems with the GB. Very 'political' to shift the attention on to others that are doing bad things, but very expected of JWs. I wouldn't say that moaning about China was part of 'Keeping on the watch', more like 'being part of the world'   
As for all this rubbish about some one copying the Watchtower. You, and others, seem to find it impossilbe to believe that anyone outside the W/t and CCJW has a mind of their own. Your Org, your GB, the Watchtower, must be copying the Bible in 'some' of it's teachings, only some though . So is it then impossible for someone else to do the same ?  Remembering that your GB are not inspired, and besides which, most of the 'beliefs' in the CCJW were set up way before the words Governing Body were used publicly... 
Why are people, in your opinion, supposed to read their Bible, if they cannot make any sense of it ? But when some one does make sense of it and then puts it into words, you say they are copying the Watchtower. Even i can make sense of the 'simple bits'. 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' is quite easy to understand for instance. 
I'll go along with what you said here "I’m jealous over some of it" , Yes I think you are. 

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/north-staffordshire-sex-beast-finally-4401250
Sex beast Mark Longshaw has finally been jailed for inappropriately touching two children - more than three decades after his crimes were 'brushed under the carpet' by Jehovah’s Witness elders.
Stoke-on-Trent Crown Court heard he inappropriately touched two children and made them touch him. Elders became aware of the incidents and helped the defendant to ‘cover it up’.
“He has had no offences since this came to a conclusion and was disclosed to the church elders at the time. He accepts they helped to brush it under the carpet.”
But blind JWs will say it's all lies and will say how wonderfully safe the CCJW is. If they could hide it then what stops them hiding it now ? 
And, just think that the GB gives more power to those Elders than to the True Anointed ones. Some things really do have to change in that Org. 

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/north-staffordshire-sex-beast-finally-4401250
Sex beast Mark Longshaw has finally been jailed for inappropriately touching two children - more than three decades after his crimes were 'brushed under the carpet' by Jehovah’s Witness elders.
Stoke-on-Trent Crown Court heard he inappropriately touched two children and made them touch him. Elders became aware of the incidents and helped the defendant to ‘cover it up’.
“He has had no offences since this came to a conclusion and was disclosed to the church elders at the time. He accepts they helped to brush it under the carpet.”
But blind JWs will say it's all lies and will say how wonderfully safe the CCJW is. If they could hide it then what stops them hiding it now ? 
And, just think that the GB gives more power to those Elders than to the True Anointed ones. Some things really do have to change in that Org. 

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/north-staffordshire-sex-beast-finally-4401250
Sex beast Mark Longshaw has finally been jailed for inappropriately touching two children - more than three decades after his crimes were 'brushed under the carpet' by Jehovah’s Witness elders.
Stoke-on-Trent Crown Court heard he inappropriately touched two children and made them touch him. Elders became aware of the incidents and helped the defendant to ‘cover it up’.
“He has had no offences since this came to a conclusion and was disclosed to the church elders at the time. He accepts they helped to brush it under the carpet.”
But blind JWs will say it's all lies and will say how wonderfully safe the CCJW is. If they could hide it then what stops them hiding it now ? 
And, just think that the GB gives more power to those Elders than to the True Anointed ones. Some things really do have to change in that Org. 

August 5th 2020  Old news revisited, but this must be costing the CCJW a bit of money. 
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/08/jehovahs-witness-sexual-abuse-report-can-stay-online-judge-rules/
A report into the handling of sexual abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses does not have be removed from a government site, a court in Arnhem has decided. It is the second time the Dutch branch of the church has gone to court over the report. In January it tried to stop publication but at the time judges ruled it should be published in the public interest.
Just 25% of victims said they were satisfied at the way their complaints against the community had been handled and only 27% of cases were ever passed on to the police or other officials. Most of the reports related to abuse in the past, with just 32 covering the past 10 years.




 

Thursday 6th August 2020 
https://www.keepthefaith.co.uk/2020/08/06/inquiry-to-hold-further-public-hearing-in-child-protection-in-religious-organisations-and-settings-investigation/
The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse is holding a further week of public hearings in the Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings investigation, from 10 – 14 August.        Following the initial two week public hearing in May earlier this year, we will continue to examine child protection policies and safeguarding cultures in religious organisations in England and Wales.     These include Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism and non-conformist Christian denominations.
Evidence will be heard from a wide range of witnesses, including victims and survivors, religious organisations, charities, local authorities, central government and third sector bodies who provide training and support in the field.   This investigation will focus on the measures religious organisations employ to keep children safe from sexual abuse and to properly handle safeguarding concerns.           Set to take place virtually, proceedings will be streamed live on the Inquiry’s website.
Witnesses will continue to be supported by the Inquiry’s Support and Safeguarding team, through phone and video calls.

@César Chávez In all your talk about Moses and Jesus do you forget how they both were inspired of God's holy Spirit ? 
I think that you are deliberately avoiding the point that the GB / Watchtower / CCJW are not inspired by Holy Spirit and are not even 'spirit led'. 
I think you also deliberately avoid the fact that the Apostle Paul was 'contacted directly by Jesus  Acts 9 v 3-5
 3  Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4  and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5  He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
And Paul did not go up to Jerusalem for the first THREE YEARS of his missionary work. 
Add to that the point that it was the Apostle Paul, who was not one of the Twelve, that wrote all the letters to the congregations, that we have in the Scriptures now.  
If you really think there was a 1st Century GB, then why weren't the letters written to the congregations from THEM ? 
As for questioning the CCJW / Watchtower, well all organisations have to be questioned. If a person is seriously looking to serve God properly then they will of course question / investigate / research any organisation / religion that they may be thinking of joining. 
And, just as importantly, if a person has information, good or bad, about an organisation, then it is right that they should make such information known publicly as a help to other people. 
 

Wow CC that is such an intelligent answer. But I don't expect any better from a worshiper of the GB. Keep serving your GB because they don't have long left in power. They will be replaced you know. 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:  Where in scripture do you find God spoke directly to the people? Maybe here. I say maybe and I will start a new topic.  Matthew 3 v 16& 17.
After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17  Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
 

@César Chávez It could not be more of a misconception than your idea that Moses and your GB have anything in common. 
We know that God spoke directly to Moses but we also know that God does not speak directly or even indirectly to your GB.  If God spoke directly to the GB then the GB would not err spiritually in spoken or written word. Unfortunately your GB err many times and so do their helpers. 

Thursday 6th August 2020 
https://www.keepthefaith.co.uk/2020/08/06/inquiry-to-hold-further-public-hearing-in-child-protection-in-religious-organisations-and-settings-investigation/
The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse is holding a further week of public hearings in the Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings investigation, from 10 – 14 August.        Following the initial two week public hearing in May earlier this year, we will continue to examine child protection policies and safeguarding cultures in religious organisations in England and Wales.     These include Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism and non-conformist Christian denominations.
Evidence will be heard from a wide range of witnesses, including victims and survivors, religious organisations, charities, local authorities, central government and third sector bodies who provide training and support in the field.   This investigation will focus on the measures religious organisations employ to keep children safe from sexual abuse and to properly handle safeguarding concerns.           Set to take place virtually, proceedings will be streamed live on the Inquiry’s website.
Witnesses will continue to be supported by the Inquiry’s Support and Safeguarding team, through phone and video calls.