Patiently waiting for Truth

Quote TTH. The reason that the GB can say ‘follow the direction of secular authority’ and still have that count as spiritual guidance is that (with some exaggeration) JWs can do it, and non-believers cannot.
Perhaps Tom is only talking about Americans here. 
In the UK most people followed the instructions of the government. My son even told his employer that he wasn't going to work, and that was before lock down started here in England. He self isolated with my wife and I, as a family in one household. We even had a stock of food bigger than a GO BAG, and still have. 
Tom talks as if everyone outside that CCJW org is a criminal or rebel. It's that old JW talk, 'Don't mix with those outside they belong to the devil'.   Grow up Tom and get real.  That 'GB Helper' made himself and the CCJW look stupid by his statement. Live with it.  
 

I think that main problem all religion have, and JW too, is in this: People who lead a religion invoke God’s authority for every word they utter in front of people. GB is among the same class. When GB stops claiming that both, correct and false doctrines and instructions came from God, then they may be closer to God and  "truth".

The reason that the GB can say ‘follow the direction of secular authority’ and still have that count as spiritual guidance is that (with some exaggeration) JWs can do it, and non-believers cannot.
Following the guidance entails putting up with delayed gratification. Those within the Christian congregation are better at doing that than those without. It entails the willingness to obey. Those within the Christian congregation are better at doing that than those without. It entails the ability to put love of neighbor above self-interest. Those within the Christian congregation are better at doing that than those without. “Do we really need to have a hashtag, #DontKillGrandma? said the CBS medical doctor recently. Yes—you do, if present trends are anything to go by. Witnesses don’t, but you do. This “proves” that the Witness organization has done well imparting Bible principles into its members, since there are plenty of churches today deemed to be spreaders of the virus. 
I even told the CultExpert, the one with the hashtag #FreedomOfMind, that my people were, by and large, more responsible than his. You don’t think that some will use their “freedom of mind” to tell the government what it can do with its regulations? 
Vic Vomodog called on me the other day, trying once again to entice me into his sinister cause. I protested that he was wearing no mask, but he laughed at me! I told him how foolhardy he was, but he said that the danger is past—our state in America is one in which the rates peaked long ago, and are in steady decline. I pleaded with him, yet he waved me down with hand gestures, just like opposers do in the dramas. However, as he stepped onto the public sidewalk, a truck loaded with emergency Covid 19 supplies bound for Texas jumped the curb and flattened him! And I can’t even visit him in the hospital—they’re not permitting that yet.
 
 

Yes, I thoroughly agree with that statement (therefore I do not need to be assured this is proof of Jehovahs backing, in this situation (covid)) and I said this in one of my posts above.  My use of the Catholic church was just an example. Probably a bad one. But my point was that just because someone does something right, is it proof of Jehovah's backing? And what if we do something that turns out to be wrong advice, as the GB has admitted (because they are fallible and can err) does that mean this is proof they do not have Jehovah's backing? I think it was just a really bad choice of words....and a little presumptuous. And was it really necessary for him to say it? Something like this surely would have been more appropriate and modest: "the advice that the GB are giving is proof that they really apply the scriptures in their life and are allowing the holy spirit to lead them" and he could have even added "we will do well to immitate them". But saying this is proof of God's backing is almost painfully insecure. Like we need to be assured because some are doubting. But do not actions speak louder than words? Should it not be left up to others to make that deduction, (like you and I did) rather than say it about themselves? And they did say it about themselves, because as I have already commented to Tom, everything that is published first gets approved (by the GB).

@Arauna " Which flesh will stand in the Day of Jehovah?  Those who have the mark of the Christian personality, call on the name of Jehovah and are found in peace with Jehovah. "
BUT, does this mean being baptised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses ?
The CCJW org says a person MUST be as above. 
If so, then the CCJW has to be much cleaner than it is now. And of course it needs True Anointed ones to lead it. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote @Anna Here I am not so sure.......saying that the GB advice is proof of God's backing very much hovers on the borders of the "woo" factor. As if for example the catholic church did something right, are we supposed to think this is proof they have God's backing? By the same token we should.  (JWI mentioned something along similar lines).
It's nice to see some balance Anna. To some extent the GB are running a massive business and trying to look after its interests. So they use common sense in some things. It does not take God's guidance to look outside and see rain then suggest to your friend that they wear a raincoat and use an umbrella. Similarly with Covid-19. There is enough information and proof of consequences for the GB to be able to make a sensible decision about it without God's guidance.  So for a GB helper to say it is proof of God's guidance or backing, is not sensible. And of course it gives ammo to those in opposition.
Jesus said something like " Even though you are wicked, which one of you would give your son a stone, if he asked for a fish."   What I'm saying is, people in the world also look after their families and do what is best for them, but it does not show God is guiding them. I think those in a position of responsibility in the CCJW should be more careful with their words. 
 
 

It appears that the GB will not join in "relaxed measures". This is because as he said; they value life more than money and they would rather be over cautious than too casual. So no meetings of field service for a while yet. Also conventions will not be held in 2021. They require preparations a year in advance. However, what each individual family does is their choice. Personally, I feel it is very wise to not relax protective measures. Especially not here in the USA. Cases of covid are on the rise again. Each countries' situation differs though, and this was acknowledged by the brother. So it may happen that resuming meetings will be based on countries. 

As i understand some comments from few of you, you say how GB made and making Independent decisions on Covid 19 and directs how JW members will behave in their spiritual activity, no matter what secular authorities say. If world leaders don't have the political will and the public willingness to impose the shutdowns as we did back in March, do you suggest or give idea how JW will stay in "lock-down" ie  not have public meetings, conventions, door to door or street service etc? Will GB not join "relaxed measures"? Or do you think how they think that is safer for members to "stay at home"?  

No, I don't know this, but logic tells me this is so. Not only that, but G. Jackson said as much in his ARC interview. In any case, your example is not really relevant, I don't think. There is a big difference in someone giving a part at a convention, and someone giving a talk on video at HQ that will be "immortalized forever" . I am not sure when you gave your parts, but I know that in the past there was much more leeway in how brothers handled talks. This is why Charles Sinutko was able to deliver that infamous talk which included the slogan "stay alive till 75" . OK, I know you probably gave talks long after that, but still, I do know for a fact that things have become a lot stricter and brothers are supposed to stick to the very detailed outline. This is confirmed to me when I watch the convention videos (sent to us because of my mother in law who is housebound) the talks are practically identical to the ones I heard at our convention, with perhaps very minor differences, mainly pertaining to experiences. I think it makes practical sense that the GB would look over a script/detailed outline before the video is shot, rather than after. And even if they didn't do that, they would see the video before it was broadcast on the website. The fact that it is broadcast shows the GB approved it. As G. Jackson said, they approve everything before it gets printed or broadcast.
Yes, pretty much..
It is true, he may or may not have imputed this. I guess it's left to individual interpretation which leads to what you say next:
 
 Here I am not so sure.......saying that the GB advice is proof of God's backing very much hovers on the borders of the "woo" factor. As if for example the catholic church did something right, are we supposed to think this is proof they have God's backing? By the same token we should.  (JWI mentioned something along similar lines).
 
I completely agree with you. Just today I read this quote: "Basically, we're seeing what happened in New York back in March, except it's happening in multiple metropolitan areas of the country," said Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and public health professor at George Washington University. And we don't have the political will and the public willingness to impose the shutdowns as we did back in March." 
And these are the kind of people that will be allowed to be subjects of God's kingdom, because this is the only way it would work. This is what my very astute Bible student once discerned. I was impressed.

Yes, I understand. Sometimes I feel like I have unnecessarily dissected some things, and it may appear that I am being overly critical, but I am just trying to be fair, and look at things from all angles(I know you do the same). I do think the GB are giving excellent counsel. Whether this is because of some "woo" factor, as Tom calls it, or whether it's just common sense is immaterial really. It's the results that matter in the long run.

I have never seen you give them  credit - so yes, according the hate-gang members they can do nothing right.
Always long stories on how controlling and misleading the GB are etc. 
There is so much false news stories out there and so many hateful apostates which are deceitful with the spin they put on news, I would also warn young people to stay away from lies. When learning English - one only needs to study good English.  You will recognize bad English immediately if one has learnt good English.  One does not need to study bad English to recognize bad English.  Similarly, one need not go and find out what apostates have to say. Just study the bible and you will immediately recognize what is kind and righteous - one need not have apostates teaching you.... Like I do here on this forum.  I recognize hate and its deceptive speech the minute I see it.
Another point: If there is a  news flash tomorrow issued by GB that JWs can now take blood,  or we can now use guns, or vote, - do you really think JWs will just blindly follow?  Or will they recognize it as a falsehood? They will immediately think someone has taken over the GB..... I would wager you that most JWs would recognize it as the work of Satan….  WHY?  because all of us have been trained in the word of Jehovah.... not the word of the GB.
 

Oh dear, once again Tom has nothing to say but writes a lot.
And I see he isn't  knocking me this time. This time it is Srecko he is putting down. But in fact Srecko is right, not Tom. 
Such a shame that Tom and Arauna are blinded by the GB. What will they do when those GB are no longer there ? 

As i understand title of his speech was, "Protect yourself from lies". In JW world, lies are, exists only outside "spiritual borders". Well JW members are safe, they just need not to open TV or surfing web, and all "truths" will stay safe and sound. :))
Again:  As described previously in the Newsroom section of jw.org, the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses was monitoring the situation and providing direction to all congregations in harmony with the recommendations from authorities.- https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=covid+19
This means, if world leaders failed in "planetary crisis", than GB failed with them too. :)) Nothing about motives. GB made simple copy paste of information about pandemic from secular sources and with or without some own colors forward instructions. 
Yes, GB leaders put in question ARC and Australian Government call for cooperation only. Or Courts in US by refusing product documents. Or victims of CSA. Or, own past doctrines they put in question too. Many other things they do not put in question.
JW members, they not put in question how trustful GB are, and they not put donation money in question, selling KH is not reason to question ..., 
So many Sreckos in a single comment from you. Woo factor at work? :))
 

Do you know this?
It may well be, and yet when I gave parts at the District Convention, nobody vetted my talk beforehand. They did vet whatever demonstration I might have had, and I did speak from a supplied outline, but nobody vetted beforehand just what I would say in the talk itself.
Again, do you know this? Or is it just a common sense deduction, an application of the scripture that it is better when someone else’s lips praises you, and not your own—like when that elder I used to work with who went apostate, and he used to assert facts of history at the door, and if he was called out as to how he knew that, he would say, “Because I’m an historian.” Finally I told him to knock it off—he was not an historian, he was a history buff. A historian is when other people recognize your credentials, not just you 
I almost had a heart attack when I saw that Srecko and I had both upvoted a recent post of yours. How did that happen? I asked myself in alarm. But then I saw that there was indeed common ground to agree upon. It is just that he took away an unjustified conclusion. He pumped his fist with a simultaneous high-five at your mention that the GB Covid update is just good sound human advice, and is absent any woo factor—a woo factor that Brother Glock may or may not have imputed. But Srecko chalked up too soon his victory. At most he should have flopped a limp fist with a simultaneous high-two.
BTW, the term ‘woo’ is a derisive term of the atheist/skeptics, as so much from that quarter is. It refers to how the intelligent people run past the dummies something the latter can’t understand, and so they attribute it to the supernatural, as in exclaiming like gullible clowns, “Woo-woo!” But sometimes they just kid themselves in their supposed enlightened superiority, as Srecko does here—just like the intrepid explorer did when he suddenly found himself surrounded by primitive cannibals! He pulled a lighter from his pocket, flicked, and a low flame emerged. The astonished natives gasped ‘Woo! Woo!’ and fell back. “MAGIC!!” the explorer said in a deep voice. “It must be,” the chief said. “That’s the first time we’ve ever seen one light on the first try!”
So Srecko thinks he has “won” with the admission that the Covid update is just good human advice? He thinks that it proves his case somehow—to win an admission that the GB is not drawing on woo? I never thought that they were in this instance. Nor, I doubt did many. Nor, as likely as not, did Brother Glock. 
Here is a statement from Harry Cheadle, in NewRepublic.com: “The current moment [of responding to Covid 19] is demonstrating just how far away we are from being able to come together to solve a planetary crisis. The pandemic is a test, and we’re failing it.” This is true because nobody agrees on anything. Propose a course, and find yourself lambasted by a faction advocating the opposite course. The Governing Body is the only entity that can issue an update of Covid 19 without my saying, “What is their real motive here?” 
There is a public talk on ‘making sound decisions’ that recognizes that it is often not so crucial that you have made this or that decision, but that you follow through on whatever one you do. This the greater world is unable to do. It is the paralysis of everyone challenging everyone else that collectively delivers the verdict, as Cheadle puts it, that “we’re failing” the crisis.
Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t failing it, and it is because of completely human factors that they enjoy and the greater world doesn’t. Witnesses have the ability to yield. They don’t insist on their own way. They do not have to “question authority” on every piddly little thing. They trust leadership. They see that the direction given obviously has their interests at heart, and that it is not too onerous—it allows for individual family headship, it allows that the circumstances of one family will not be that of another, and doesn’t try to tell them all what to do, even as it sets a greater overall theme of caution. In contrasts the direction of some human leaders range from draconian to complete laissez faire.
“Well, that’s just good sound thinking,” Srecko would say, “based upon Bible verses that show good sound thinking. We could have done that.” But the fact is that you didn’t. And in fact, you can’t—because you have a societal inability to agree, a societal inability to compromise, and a societal inability to endure delayed gratification. Return to the fold, and you will find it again, but it’s not to be found in the greater world that you have chosen
In fact, I have no problem if Brother Glock does think that a woo factor is at work, nor right would I ever rule out that there might be—it is just that you can’t “prove” it in the scientific sense. But the fact is, you can discard all the woo, and still have the greater argument. You still have Srecko swimming in a chaotic cesspool of argument, indecision, and waffling. You still have him, like an insane Jeremiah, at the bottom of a miry cistern, trying to persuade Ebed-Melech to come down and join him. You still have him trying to sell you the bill of goods that your life would improve if you would just step over to the morass that is his.

I haven't really changed my mind on the original position either, but if more Glockentin-style utilization appears, I will think its use has evolved. NOT necessarily that it was the original intention. I fear that we are discussing a very narrow "improper" usage of the topic among a much larger and obvious "proper" usage of the example. If I don't respond fully, it's because I think some will just become more confused in thinking that this is a complete rejection of the usefulness of the excellent counsel and leadership of the GB and their response over Covid-19.

It must be that WTJWorg leaders are in great pain for some time. This and some statements before which calls members to full trust in GB is desperate act. Manifestly, members leave "The Club". 

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partners with them; 8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. "  Eph 5:6-11

I believe there is more sadness about this thought, than humor.  You are not far off at all in your harmless illustration, and the reaction that would come from it, since it reminded me of the question posed on facebook at the time the W 13/11/15 was studied.  You may remember this:
Question:  "If you were to go to the Kingdom Hall next Sunday and listen to a letter from the Governing Body instructing ALL in attendance to swallow an unknown pill, would you obey without hesitation, keeping the admonition from today's Watchtower in mind?  Yes or No?
Here's one frightening answer:  "With faith, I will take it.  Even if I perish, jehovah will remember me".
Obviously, not all JWs would feel this way.  But, they cooperate with an organization that has convinced thousands to submit to any direction by the Governing Body.  Surely, this alone would make the more sensible ones to sit up and take notice of the manipulative power this organization is capable of.  
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."  2 Pet 2:1-3
Jesus Christ's headship is barely referred to by the GB.  Yes, they have denied "who bought them". 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:10,11; (John 7:38) 
Millions of people are following uninspired men, and an organization whose teachings are laced with deceit and pitfalls.  In Mr. Gockentin's presentation, he stated, "protect yourself from lies". 
This is exactly what those who leave the organization are doing - protecting themselves from an outlandish, devilish lie.  2 Thess 2:9-12   
Here is the article - 
https://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/would-you-take-the-pill-a-simple-facebook-test-has-shocking-results
 
Wormwood/The False Prophet/Armageddon - https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/12/wormwood-armageddon-false-prophet.html
 
 
 
 
"
 
 

As described previously in the Newsroom section of jw.org, the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses was monitoring the situation and providing direction to all congregations in harmony with the recommendations from authorities.- https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=covid+19
Source of knowledge and direction is in "worldly" institutions, wisdom and common sense, and it is funny to put this on "religious and spiritual level" as GB Helper was done by conclusion: .... is just another proof that Jehovah is with the Governing Body."
That GB Helper, for example, said: "GB recommended to all brothers and sister; Drink Aloe Vera 10 times a day and you will be cured and will not be ill from Covid 19 because we and HS found that is best for all of us.", .... that would be another proof who is with GB. According to w13 11/15 20, GB instructions have to be "unique" and "may not appear practical from a human standpoint".  :)) and that would give "proof" to JW's how JHVH "backing" GB in their decisions.
:))) little fun and irony 

Wow, Does this mean my family had God's backing then when we decided to self isolate, myself with my wife and son. And when my son told his employer that he would not be attending work, days before the UK lock down started. Does it indicate that God is with me ? I think not. It just indicates that we used common sense. 
The GB used common sense that is all. 

Wow, Does this mean my family had God's backing then when we decided to self isolate, myself with my wife and son. And when my son told his employer that he would not be attending work, days before the UK lock down started. Does it indicate that God is with me ? I think not. It just indicates that we used common sense. 
The GB used common sense that is all. 

No.1 and No.2 originated from Bible, and not from GB. No.3 is general statement, nothing unique.   
Agree!
Application was already done at world scale and was instruction made not from God, Bible or GB, but from "secular authorities". They told people to stay at home, in Croatia and in many other countries. :)) Another application..... only for JW members??

Change ‘proof’ to ‘another indication’ and the whole problem goes away. This is much ado about nothing.
As a result of the GB’s direction, we are all skewed to be COVID 19-cautious. I don’t know what it “proves” but it sure doesn’t prove that they don’t know what they’re doing. Their counsel gives reflects the wisest balance: ‘Each family head is responsible for his or her own family’ they say, ‘and what is good for one family may not be good for another’. So they are ‘not telling anyone what to do.’ Yet by their own 3-fold advice cord of 1) love of neighbor, 2) obey secular authorities, and 3) don’t be casual about this virus, they nudge all in the direction, without ‘telling anyone what they must do,’ for the greatest preservation of life.
I don’t know how serious the virus is in the greater scheme of things, and it seems impossible to tell. Every source spins the data their own way to fit their own cause. I had my annual physical, and asked my doctor how he and his practice are holding up. “They should have never shut down,” he said, of New York State. “They didn’t follow the science.” ‘Following the science’ has now become a buzzword phrase that each side uses to lambaste the other. Only the GB can make an announcement about Covid without my saying: “I wonder what their real motive is.”
The counsel becomes more important than the disease itself, for it gives uniform guidance to sail through a turbulent course. If Brother Glock want to say that ‘ewents’ prove God’s backing, I can say, “Well, ‘indicate’ might have been more scientifically precise,“ but otherwise I do not lose my cookies over it.
It may prove increasing providential, or at least especially timely. Pressures from Covid spill over into ever-more areas of societal breakdown. Big businesses are saved, as the small fry is wiped out. The economic forces unleashed by Covid 19 will have more repercussions than Covid itself. Ditto for the chaotic unrest in the wake of BLM protests. No matter who is elected in November, the other side will not accept it. The world is a powder keg ready to blow—and those who think that Brother Glock’s use of ‘prove’ is the REAL issue will think it right down to when the earth swallows them up. 
It may just be that we are soon to experience another application of ‘Go, my people, enter your inner rooms, and shut your doors behind you...until the wrath has passed by.’ And should that be the case, I won’t be upset at anything that Brother Glock says it ‘proves.’ I’ll just be glad I took his counsel and canceled my subscriptions to the Srecko Times, The Witness Chronicle, and the Daily 4Jah Cryer.
 
 

Mr.  Glockentin stressed,
‘Protect ourselves by limiting our exposure’...to the news. Judge the ‘quality and quantity of information’. 
‘Pick the most reliable source. Set a personal time limit.’
He then used Prov 14:15 – "The simple believe anything,
    but the prudent give thought to their steps." 
For the very devout JW, this seems tedious and rather a frightening task; so the easiest thing to do is put “complete trust in the Governing Body”.  They sift through all of the “fake news”, and “misinformation” for them.  Their “wisdom” on the matter, is a blessing from God. 🙂  In actuality it is the "simple" who believe anything, and must have "complete trust" in what the GB tells them, since the "prudent" GB have shown them what "steps" to take. 
There really is no thinking, no reasoning for yourself, and this is what the organization wants. Why else would Mr. Glockentin highly emphasize the need to trust the GB in all things?  
 An account came to me from my son, of a JW household where a man, wife and his two children live with the man’s father and his wife.  They share one kitchen, but the son put cameras in various places of the kitchen so that his immediate family would not wander in when his parents may be using the kitchen, all because of the virus.  His parents finally said, enough is enough, and packed up their motor home and took off, promising to return when “this” is all over.  By the way, he is an elder, who seems to be thinking for himself. 
 
 

Quote @JW Insider We want to give a double portion of "honor" to those who take the lead in teaching, and we appreciate the teaching:
And we need not get wrapped up in the idea that salvation is coming through the GB
Sorry JWI I can't agree with you on this for many reasons. Whilst I do know  that the CCJW do have foundation doctrines built on God's word, that does not excuse all the incorrect teachings and other problems. 
And the teaching is there about 'a person must be a baptised JW to be saved'.  And I really do not agree with the baptism questions. Whatever happened to baptising in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ? 
So, whilst they may have a few things right, they also have a lot of things wrong, and in my opinion it is deliberately wrong. 
I know it is seen as me just picking holes but :-
Quote : If we can appreciate this, we can enjoy the blessings Jehovah offers to any who gather together in his name, who try to do what is right.
The GB have basically told the Anointed NOT to gather together in His name. And i think they wrote that it would be working against the Holy Spirit to do so. 
I hope you understand why i cannot support them. It all seems so contradictory to me. 
 

It is odd that so many here will deride scholars for their view on evolution—and will lap up whatever they have to say on every other point.