Patiently waiting for Truth

Oh dear, things are so complicated....and yet there seems to be a pattern, and repetition of the same old, same old, wherever we are in the stream of time ....for centuries...... distant history and the more recent.

I will try to put my thoughts as concisely as possible. Bearing in mind they are nothing original I'm sure..
My hubby and I have started watching a period drama set in 9th century England. The whole series centers around a hero who is divided in his loyalties (to the crown and to the Danes). All the characters are based on some person in history, and I must say it is very well done (BBC) and depicts life as it probably was at that time pretty accurately.
Although people back then were much more savage, had no qualms about lopping someone's head off, they were also God fearing, albeit misguided.

The king, as many other kings before him and after him believes himself to be "God's king". Someone that God uses to carry out his will here on earth. Of course he is as imperfect as anyone, but on the whole he is very genuine, he really believes. There have been worse kings. But what struck me was how easy it is for someone....anyone.... to be deluded, especially when they take upon themselves the task of taking the lead as God's "chosen one", as someone through whom God works here on earth. But...and I've said this on here before, anyone like that depends wholly on the support of others. A king with no subjects, and no army is no king at all. He can wear his crown all day long and he is nothing. It only takes someone with a vision, intelligence, the ability of persuasive speech and a  band of usurpers to overthrow that person. Of course in practice its more complicated, but as we know,  all of history is made up of situations just like that. Empires have been built and have fallen not just due to battles, but mainly due to loyalties on which these battles are based.

Where I am going with this is that I can see a parallel with the FDS. I am not at all implying that the FDS are bad, or that they are not doing a good job as far as human imperfection allows, but what I am saying is that they are in a position of "God's king" (supposedly sanctioned by God himself) whereby they carry out God's will here on earth and administer God's subjects here on earth. So it seems absolutely nothing new at all. The only difference is the FDS are a group, a body of counsel, instead of one individual, and the "subjects" are also subjects of worldly governments, as "alien residents". As a group, the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects".

In practical terms of course, it is necessary to have some kind of central body to organize the preaching work. But the pertinent question is, and also what is addressed by Furuli it seems (I haven't read the book yet) is: What did Jesus mean by the Faithful and Discreet Slave that was to feed his domestics? 
Or is the the same old again; the pattern of human governance, leadership, kingship, whatever you want to call it.... after all, people love to have a visible leader. People love to be advised, told what to do, guided.  The Israelites asked for a human king.

But is this what Jesus had in mind? Or is true Christianity supposed to be something else, something unique.

Again, there has to be organizational leadership in order for an organization to function, and there even has to be spiritual leadership, leading by example. But is it right for one man, or group of men, to have exclusive monopoly on the INTERPRETATION of scripture, but more importantly should this group have the right to insist that everyone accepts only their interpretation, and if not, they may be denied membership, or if they are already members it will be counted as "treason" and they will be ex-communicated (in our society we no longer chop peoples heads off) and ordered to live like outcasts, outlaws, banished and shunned by the whole community as they know it, including relatives. It sounds to me like something from my movie. Is this the model Jesus had in mind? I repeat, as a group, the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects". Remove that support and they are "nothing". But didn't Jesus say we should support one another, and come to the aid of our brothers?

The term that figures most when any such things are discussed within Jehovah's Witnesses is UNITY. But what kind of unity did Jesus have in mind? Did he mean a people united in purpose, or did he mean a people united in thought against their will? Can unity allow for differing opinion and still be called unity. Or is it like a big body, a mass made up of individuals, but who are one. Like a giant Trinity, except not three separate entities but millions.

Is the GB like Moses? No, the greater Moses was Jesus. Jesus fulfilled everything. Jesus began a totally new era of people for God with the first Christian congregation, which lasted practically only a few 100 years. The GB or so called FDS cannot  be modeled on anything or anyone but the Christian congregation. But not even that, because the Bible was still being written. Now we have everything, now we just have to listen and obey Jesus and God as outlined therein (the Bible).

I think most thinking people will question what gives someone the right to claim they are God's spokesman, or the mouthpiece of God, or as Geoffrey Jackson put it; "guardians of THE doctrine".
Certainly you need to have some credentials under your belt, and some history behind you to even be halfway believable.
Modern day witnesses have had a 100 years or so of history. Yes, there have been ups and downs, doctrinal disappointments, wrong expectations, wrong interpretations and yes people have been stumbled, discouraged, chased away. But on the whole Jehovah's Witnesses have managed to remain as close to the 1st Century Christian congregation as humanly possible. I know, I can compare.
Have to go, got the second return visit on on ZOOM, whooho!
 

I brought it up because it's one of several places where Furuli's book provides the exact type of anecdote I am familiar with. These types of interactions were evidently memorable and important to Furuli, too.
But you might recall that among Witnesses it started with a basis in the Watch Tower publications. We have all the evidence that the initial speculation and the promotion of that speculation came directly from the publications and later from talking points from Circuit and District Servants (Overseers). Of course, the Watchtower had used the date 1975 to promote speculation about what might likely happen in the mid-1970's, not 1975 specifically.
Individuals, especially Circuit and District Overseers, and evidently FWFranz himself, speculated that this meant 1975 itself was just about the last possible year for Armageddon. Franz' early articles made it clear that, at most, it could only be a matter of weeks or months, but NOT years after October 1975. In other words, F.W.Franz promoted speculation that this system could not go beyond October 1977 because then it really would be "YEARS" after 1975. Mostly circuit and district overseers, those who held themselves out to be very careful readers of what the Society was actually saying here, were pointing out to audiences that if you read very closely, and with discernment, you will see that this is what the Society wants us to realize: That it's VERY unlikely that this system would go even as far as past 1975, or even if it did, it would only be a matter of months past 1975, not years. Therefore, we were supposed to speculate that Armageddon would come in the mid-1970s, not 1975 specifically. But the term "1975" became the shorthand for "mid-1970s" and this speculation about the mid-70s naturally became focused on the specific year 1975. So much so that when 1975 ended, almost all the talk of the mid-1970s ended then, too.
That initial speculation that was promoted at the summer conventions in 1966 was followed up with speakers assigned to promote more speculation at the Circuit Assemblies in 1967. Then the "months, not years" Watchtower came out in 1968, and it was the same Watchtower that indicated it was wrong to use Matthew 24:36 to balance the enthusiasm about 1975/mid-70s. In 1969, it was predicted that young ones should not plan to go to college, and especially not anything like a 4-year college degree because they would not likely finish that degree in this old system. And, of course, it was also predicted that no young ones would every grow old in this system. They definitely would not be able to start a career in this system. By 1973, the publications were praising those who were selling their houses to spend the remaining months in full-time service.
There might have been a few cautionary statements at the beginning, but they died out quickly, and we were told not to "toy" with scriptures that made cautionary statements in 1968. . It was not until 1974 that some of those more cautionary statements came out. My father gave at least one of these Circuit Assembly talks every year from 1967 to about 1972. He used Matthew 24:36 as a cautionary statement, even though he was not supposed to do that, according to the 1968 "months, not years" Watchtower.
By 1974 it was obvious that things were not really going as planned. (Inside Bethel, FWFranz was beginning to talk about 1974 as the likely year, even more likely than 1975) so when 1974 wasn't seeing things happening quickly even FWFranz himself began giving cautionary talks.
An experiment that might tell you something of the timing of these cautionary talks is reflected, I think, in the number of times Matthew 24:42, 24:36 and Mark 13:32 was quoted in the Watchtower:
“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."
1964 ONCE 1965 through 1974: ZERO TIMES!!! 1975: TWICE 1976: ONCE 1977: ZERO 1978: ONCE 1979 - 1993 ZERO And how about the same for Matthew 24:36:
(Matthew 24:36) (Mark 13:32) . . .“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, . . .
1965: TWICE 1966: ZERO 1967: ONCE 1968: TWICE (but including the article against using it!)  1969 through 1973: ZERO TIMES!!! 1974: ONCE 1975: FOUR TIMES!! 1976: ZERO 1977: ZERO 1978: ZERO Such important scriptures nearly skipped from 1966 to 1974!!! Only brought up again in 1974 and 1975.

Sorry. My bad.
What I loved best about one of Tom Harley’s books—they’re all so good—is his recall of a squabble between you and he over a child abuse video. He was favoring the ‘Protect Your Children’ video of Jehovah’s Witnesses and you were skewering it for not dealing the the possibility that mommy and daddy might be the abusers. You favored a video from the Sinatra foundation, featuring circled areas of a child’s body which were no-touch zones, suggesting both that a child wouldn’t know its ass from its elbow, and also that it would mentally consult the diagram in order to determine whether it felt bad about a touch or not. 
I remember how Tom pointed out how the JW video spoke of a child having a conscience, and in fact, it did deal indirectly with your scenario, as one of the parents said ‘Let no one touch you inappropriately’—whereas the agency video specifically said that it was okay for a doctor to touch private places. ‘Ask the young women of the U.S. Olympic team which video they think would have better protected them,’ he said.

Quote ' The thing to "note" is, when did higher education "guarantee" success? '
BUT the GB quite happily use Lawyers in many court cases. They would have had higher education. 
And i would imagine that many of the 'top brass' in HQ / Bethel had more than a basic education. 
Who did the planning for that massive building project at Warwick ?
But TTH rabbits on and so does Aurana, both totally unbalanced on the subject.  It is a matter of balance. 

I presume you have every paper copy of every magazine from 1966 through 1975, to prove your point. 
Other wise you have no proof. That one article proves nothing. The CCJW back track all the time. 

Thank you @JW Insider   This gets better every minute. 
A complete lack of spirituality shown in both instances. 
But @Space Merchant might question the use of the large visual aid with the number of months left to 1975. He seems to think that JW Org didn't 'predict' it as Armageddon.
  39 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said: I think if you guys want to see changes, it would take several million signatures from all countries you are located in, or a massive letter writing campaign like you  did with Russia.
I think it would take all congregants to leave the CCJW completely and certainly to stop all contributions. 
But I think all congregants (once lock down has ended) should stop attending Kingdom Hall meetings. They would do better for themselves to pray directly to God through Christ to ask for the CCJW to be completely cleansed and for a true Anointed to be set in place to act as Servants to the Org, not dictators of it. 
Perhaps God is waiting for such things to happen. Perhaps God wants to see the seriousness and wholehearted dedication from HIS people. I would imagine what God can see right now is the congregants 'turning a blind eye' to many sins within the CCJW and just using it as a social club. 
 

According to the Bible, it says otherwise. This statement shows that you are far from knowing it it means to be "Part of the World" and or "Having the Spirit of the World", which is a bit more fitting. Granted each and every individual can all between the cracks, some can climb their way out, others do not. This also includes those who willful have intent to do bad and various sins, and or their ill will form of justice.
There is a clear distinction between God's standards and that of man. It is also safe to note that in categories regarding morals and the like, the standards lie there too.
That is because child sex abuse is indeed everywhere in the world, in every institution. The prime suspect in all this is related to how the world views sex. No one is ignorant of the fact that child abuse happens in various religious groups, however, the main problem people seem to miss, and not even take the advice of child sex abuse and neglect services is to resort to TEACHING the people, both children and adults, in order to prevent and or minimize sex and or physical abuse. The tragic thing is, some people laugh at the solutions for helping children (like the one guy currently in this thread), as is, with ignoring the fact of the sex/race in this notion, of which another, who also is on this forums attested to racism, when the facts from the FBI says otherwise.
The secondary statement of yours do not really make sense, unless you are willing to clarify.
I have never seen them, or anyone else make such a claim. Therefore, if something was never stated and or mentioned, how can it be disproved? In fact, no one in the US and or the EU, etc. have a standard that is beyond anything or anyone. The sole reason for this is due to the fact of imperfection. One can be clean morally and mentally, but that does not negate the fact that the person is imperfect and can stumble into sin. Recall the story of the Son of Jesse, King of Judah - David?
As for the secondary statement, you really need to know what it means when the Bible says not to be part of the world.
And yet it does not stop you from telling lies or being dishonest? The Spirit of the World consist of more than that.
You do realize that, if a person has love and has mercy, they can still be part of the world, right? Another jab of you not knowing fully well the notion.
You just spoke of judging, yet here you are.
Regardless of the faith and or other group, there are good people and there are bad people. Should a man of one or many groups commit to grave sin, his actions does not define masses. To think as such you are now, is borderline bigotry in this sense, which is no different from those who treat and bash a man, woman or child because of the actions of someone who is of the same sex and or race, even though they themselves have nothing to do with the ill intent.
@Arauna It would seem the fact that someone had stolen @4Jah2me 's cookie jar, triggered what we are seeing now; it is as if the dealing with Butler again.
EDIT:
Of course, bravo and thank you, once again for proving me point (I believe the 7th time thus far). I believe you dropped these words before you logged out, QCM, and it may be safe to say you disagree with better solutions for children, which is a shame because that is what child abuse and neglect services promote:

That is the right word.  It triggers OCD.  That is why I rarely reply...... the response is always the same old, same old.  I like to learn from people I do not agree with...... but you always land up in a dead end.

It is interesting to look at religious individuals and religious organizations who call for subjection on behalf secular authorities when that suites them (religious organization). But when not, they advocate for their religious rights and freedom of speech and loudly call for bible verse as explanation and justification of own disrespect and disobedience to secular laws in some other subject matter: "you must obey god more than men (secular authorities)". 
Obviously, in WTJWorg copyrights claims, main issue is not how to use and defend Trade and Copyrights laws in particular country, BUT The Company hard work to DEFEND WTJWorg Religious Teachings and Doctrines and Internal Policy that some other people found to be wrong or error or manipulation or not truth. 
 

This is epic statement :)) Very Biblical in fact .... they reading Deuteronomy and Revelation book to much.

Several of the anecdotes that Furuli offers are exactly the type of anecdotes that have stuck with me over the years.
Just a few days ago, I related the story about how my father, an elder, was giving a talk at a circuit assembly with the theme: "The time left is reduced." During this time period, assembly speakers had used a large visual aid with the number of months left to 1975. My father gave the talk according to the outline but as a reminder to always stay balanced he added a quick reference Matthew 24:36: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."
The District Overseer took my father aside (after the day's session), in front of the Circuit Overseer to counsel him for adding that scripture. The Watchtower had recently warned against using this scripture in a way that might appear to reduce the enthusiasm over 1975.
Furuli gives a similar example:
An Italian brother with a great knowledge of the Bible and related
subjects told me that he gave a public lecture in his congregation. After the
talk, two elders approached him and gave him credit for some details he
had discussed that were new to them. But they also reprimanded him
because he had quoted two scriptures that were not found in the printed
outline of the talk. ''We must not add anything to the material that comes
from the slave," were their words. This situation shows that many Witnesses
today view the eight men in the GB almost as prophets and oracles. They
are the only ones that can teach others the Bible, and we must follow them
closely.

Looks like partly a copy and paste. But not, evidently, to give a different perspective. It seems quite possible that the words could have been that way in a 5/24/2020 edition and not in a 5/25/2020 edition.
I say this because the book gives evidence of rushed last-minute organization and some sloppy editing. There is a lot of unnecessary repetition, and a couple of mistakes and typos. Sometimes with such e-books the author has the opportunity to make changes on the fly and continue editing as early copies are going out. 
Here are the closest quotes to yours. Yours matches the supposed quote at https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/05/26/in-new-book-a-prominent-jehovahs-witness-trashes-the-faiths-governing-body/

Today the members of the GB have all power in connection with the
doctrines, the assets, and the money. No one has the right to question their
decisions or their words. And this collides head-on with the words of Paul
in Galatians 5:1 (NWT13):
And in another place he says:
I believe that the members of the GB are sincere
persons. But they have taken a position among the Witnesses that violates
many Bible principles. They have become a government with all power.
And in another place he says:
During the last part of the 20th century, the members of the GB gave
themselves more and more power at the expense of the bodies of elders .
The GB functions as a government for JW with unlimited power over the
doctines [sic], the assets, and the money.
And in another place he says:
Because no one can call the members of the GB to
account, they have been able to lead the organization in the direction of
their choice-they have formed the organization into their own image.
The present organizational structure, where the members of the GB
believe that they have both the obligation and the right to be a government
for Jehovah's Witnesses, has created great problems.
And in another place he says;
The problem, however, is that the definitions of apostasy are self serving
because it is the GB who defines what "Jehovah's arrangement"
is. And the definition is that the GB serves as a government for JW with
unlimited power. Thus, any opposition to the GB is per definition
apostasy because it "is undermining the confidence of the brothers in
Jehovah's arrangement."
In spite of the fact that the GB has the upper hand, my conscience
has driven me to write this book, and I leave the judgment to Jehovah.
And in another place he says:
Because I have had responsible positions during
these years, I have witnessed how the organization has gradually become
more and more autocratic, until we have the situation today with the GB
functioning as the government of JW with unlimited power.
And in another place he says:
If a Catholic man . . . becomes a member of a JW congregation, the man becomes a part of an organization
that is more hierarchical and more dictatorial than the Catholic Church. This is a
situation that violates several Bible principles.
And in another place he says:
This situation shows that many Witnesses today view the eight men in the GB almost as prophets and oracles. They are the only ones that can teach others the Bible, and we must follow them
closely.
So all the words are there, some in different places, and it would take some cutting and pasting to produce the exact same sentence in the quote you found. But that quote does not manipulate the meaning of Furuli's quotes, so I suspect they may have easily once existed in the Introduction (or another place?) as you quoted them. Or the site was very sloppy. Either way, what Furuli actually said sounds very similar, overall.

Closed? It was all open when I started here many moons ago. I see they've moved the furniture around and plastered over some doorways since I last dropped by. A little disorienting but hey, this door was still open so here I am. Never fear, the only JWs I eat for breakfast are Neil and that Allen/Wyatt Earp guy (is he still posting?). 
@scholar JW Hi Neil 🙂 Good to see you're still kicking around. So, how do you feel about Rolf taking a stand against the Governing Body and rejecting the current Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine (the FDS doctrine, @Arauna)? 

One thing i do find very funny on here and in the CCJW is this. 
Everyone seems to say 'Read the Bible' 'Study God's Word' 'Pray for Holy Spirit'
BUT when a person does those things and comes to an understanding of scripture, oh dear, they must be wrong because they don't agree with YOU !  
@Arauna I agree with your latest comment. One reason being that I truly believe the Greek Scriptures are meant for the true Anointed to understand, not the 'domestic' Earthly class. 
Just look on this forum how many different opinions there are. My opinion is no better or worse that any other. 
One man on here says he 'studies religions', but is that what God really requires of us ?  How long would it take us to study all religions ? 
Just one little point. The GB 'inspired' Elders have regularly told congregants to 'Leave it with Jehovah' when congregants have been wronged, even to the point of CSA. 
But when the GB / CCJW / W/t are wronged they get their Lawyers to fight it all the way. 
So why can't they just 'Leave it with Jehovah' ?  Is it all about the money ? 
Well this example of the GB and their lawyers will probably 'inspire' more CSA victims to fight it all the way. After all it seems that the GB and you people are only interested in people's 'rights according to law'. 

True, and even if it accuses, regardless of him being a scholar, without sufficient proof it is without substance. 
So detractors on the forum should not be so ecstatic ...... he does apparently urge brothers not to leave....... an idea which is abhorent to them . 

That is an odd statement. There was actually a governing body of Christians in the 1st century, but certainly far different from today's religious leaders. Even during those times, there as been others as the latter grow old and die and others take their place.

Grumble grumble grumble

You make me sick...you have shown your real core to everyone here....a man puts up what could be his eulogy to all..and you post up something to promote your belief...you try to score a point....you are ruthless and cruel..and so are some others here....you have shown the whole forum what condition  your heart is...How about showing a little common decency..and some respect....you disgust me as a human..
Unbelievable!!!

@TrueTomHarley It is ironic because the very sighting of the 503 (c) again reminds me of how the latter said otherwise in the past.
But someone who gives food to those in need are capable, people who are unable to and or not doing it, it does not mean they are negative, but some would think otherwise, for I recall, Jesus instruction was the focus, although the other things are nice as well, but one should not go off from what is commanded, something of which people tend to forget about.

I am of the opinion that no non-JW or ex-JW, intends to use and presents WT published materials as their own. That is a ridiculous and impossible assumption. For everything that is used (in whole or in part) serves for a religious debate in which some advocate one opinion and others refute or ridicule it.

For the purpose of argumentation only: What reasonable person of the ranks of ex-JW would like to advocate the idea of FDS and GB since 1919 as his own? Intellectual property :)) and copyright. 
What ex-JW have intention to COPY / DUPLICATE such intellect? 

??   
Your personal opinion only......... and while you are allowed to have a personal opinion , it does not mean it is absolutely correct.  Satan and his demons are also allowed by God to have a personal opinion..... 

@Ann O'Maly  This is wonderful news. Music to my ears. I think @James Thomas Rook Jr. would love this too. 
It would be so funny if this book says things that i have been saying on here for a long time. 
Quote  
"There was no governing body in the first century CE. Therefore, the present Governing Body has no legacy and should be dissolved." - p. 135.
I love this. But if I say to much i will be D/fed from this forum, as John Butler was. Even that word 'dissolved' might pose a threat.  
Quote,  " he blasts the current GB for losing their way, being power- and money-grabbing, amongst other complaints, and he scripturally dismantles the FDS doctrine. " 
Mr Rook said similar things and so have I.  
Is this only available as an e-book ?   Is it or will it be available in 'real paper copy' ? 
@TrueTomHarley  Could be the start of something big Tom ?   And before you say it, NO I'm not looking to follow men But it is nice to get an honest / alternative point of view isn't it. 
And the CCJW say that higher education is a waste of time. Um, I wonder why they would say that. 
I think this gentleman and his book proves the point I'm making here. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Furuli?fbclid=IwAR1hVDMbNLhaYsVijFkSQinHVUTf8N9iSM0LgwjSXiz-jIwqTM2ZDfq-nno
I think his Wiki page showing his previous works gives enough evidence of his use of higher education and the first red.it link gives a clue as to content of this book. But Tom only quote half and then avoids the true point of it all as usual. 
 @Ann O'Maly 
"The “faithful and discreet slave” refers to any Christian who is
faithful and on the watch when Jesus comes as the judge in the
great tribulation. It does not refer to a class that gives spiritual
food during Christ’s presence." - p. 72.
I think I'd go with what God's word says on this one....  Matthew 24 v 45 
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
I love your choice of words here.  Quote "  what 'apostates' have banged on about for decades. "
I think the truth is, that it is nice to have different viewpoints. 

@Ann O'Maly  This is wonderful news. Music to my ears. I think @James Thomas Rook Jr. would love this too. 
It would be so funny if this book says things that i have been saying on here for a long time. 
Quote  
"There was no governing body in the first century CE. Therefore, the present Governing Body has no legacy and should be dissolved." - p. 135.
I love this. But if I say to much i will be D/fed from this forum, as John Butler was. Even that word 'dissolved' might pose a threat.  
Quote,  " he blasts the current GB for losing their way, being power- and money-grabbing, amongst other complaints, and he scripturally dismantles the FDS doctrine. " 
Mr Rook said similar things and so have I.  
Is this only available as an e-book ?   Is it or will it be available in 'real paper copy' ? 
@TrueTomHarley  Could be the start of something big Tom ?   And before you say it, NO I'm not looking to follow men But it is nice to get an honest / alternative point of view isn't it. 
And the CCJW say that higher education is a waste of time. Um, I wonder why they would say that. 
I think this gentleman and his book proves the point I'm making here. 
 

Kudos once again to this loving group of people in this religion. A couple stopped by to check in on my mom. I'll forgive that they didn't care about me or anyone else in the house, but at least they have a communication system to check in on the jw elderly.