Patiently waiting for Truth

Just because someone is elected to office, does NOT make them smart.
Central control of everything only works  with The Borg.

Use "Almighty True God", and all bases are covered.
...or, its "blahnblahblah", the rest of your life.

A LOT of things were true before 1985, when they changed the rules of who and what you were dedicating your life to.
81 years ago was 1939.
Disfellowshipping and shunning at that time by the Society was considered  a barbaric affront to God, and people ,...  only practiced by Catholics and similar false religions.
We did not even remotely as an institution have a disfellowshipping policy back then.
Brothers and Sisters were "marked" by individual congregants as their conscience dictated.
( By the way ... that's why we HAVE a theocratically trained conscience ...)
 

This probably is getting tedious, but just three more important points from the same author. One is about how Josephus, who as a priest claimed to know the pronunciation, indicated that YHWH was not 4 consonants but 4 "vowels," which matches additional historical information from the centuries just surrounding Josephus. This is from page 86/87 and I have also included some of the author's quote of Gesenius, p.87, and Gerard Gertoux, p.25. (Gerard Gertoux is often quoted by Witnesses.)


Gertoux reference, p. 25:

I can't quote the book forever, but again, much of it can be found here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=k9JEAgAAQBAJ
 

There's another really good book (imo) on the topic which has large parts available for free on Google books: Pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton: A Historico-LInguistic Approach, by Steven Ortlepp.
The whole book is good, but the most relevant part is a long quote within the book from the Theological Workbook of the Old Testament (TWOT):

...

...

A thank you to my friend above for clarifying the matter so excellently.
Mr Gordon: worked on translating the Dead Sea scrolls and still works on translating ancient Hebrew language on artifacts - old and newly found. It is his passion.
It is logical to me that Hebrew scholars did not bother on research (or only did superficial research ) on the name when their biblical tradition dictates that it is unacceptable to pronounce the name.  So when they recognize the tetragrammaton, they substitute it.
Gordon says that German translators in the 18th century did not do a good job on ancient Hebrew translations due  to Yiddish influence.
Mr Gorden did research on the Yiddish language and found that the German language influenced the pronunciation of the third letter  in the tetragrammaton as well. Since I speak some German and a semitic language, I understood the subtle change immediately.....  I could clearly see the mechanism.  So pronunciations of letters do definitely change over time...
 There are no vowels... this is ..... thumbsuck.  These old scholars used conjecture. In Hebrew and Arabic one reads without vowels.  That is why the language is difficult. They only write down the consonants. Vowels are only put in to assist the reader. 
This is why it is amazing to me  that someone found old manuscripts with the point system actually supplied in them. No-one bothered to check it because they automatically just recognized the tetragrammaton (read only the consonants as they are used to) and did not notice them there.    
I am not here to win an argument or even to get you to accept the name yehovah - the choice is yours. 
By the way, the translation of the Lords prayer  - let your name be "sanctified' is the best possible translation - according to Gordon. 
 

I think that if you read about these manuscripts (especially Aleppo and the ones derived from the same sources as Aleppo) you will see that these manuscripts have been studied and copied and recopied for a thousand years. It's impossible that no one noticed a consistent pattern of using at least two major vowel pointings on YHWH. In fact, if any reader of Hebrew had found mistakes on a Masorete scroll, there was a Masorete procedure to fix it as soon as possible, or if unfixable, to never use the scroll, even bury it.
There is an excellent description of the reason for two major vowel pointings in the Aleppo scroll (and Leningrad) here: https://yrm.org/yehovah-deception/
For example, the Leningrad codex, a codex that many advocates of Yehovah rely on, contains additional Hebrew spellings. Below are six examples where the Divine name contains different vowel points (transliteration approximate):
יְהוָה – Yehwah (Genesis 2:4)
יְהֹוָה – Yehowah (Genesis 3:14)
יֱהֹוִה – Yehowih (Judges 16:28)
יֱהוִה – Yehuwih (Genesis 15:2)
יְהֹוִה – Yehowih (1Kings 2:26)
יְהוִה – Yehwih (Ezekiel 24:24)
The Adonai Preceding Yehovah Dilemma
Those who argue that the vowels for Yehovah have no relation to Adonai have some explaining to do. Within the Leningrad codex and the Aleppo codex (see image below) is it merely coincidence that when the Tetragrammaton is preceded by Adonai, it receives different pointing? If Yehovah contains the proper and correct vowels, then why do we see the pattern of inserting the vowels for Elohim in the Tetragrammaton when Adonai proceeds it? This is a serious dilemma for the Yehovah proponents and clearly proves a redundant pattern. This is one of those elementary concepts that slips past the unlearned but is well understood in scholarship.

As seen (on p. 15) in the Aleppo Codex in Judges 16:28, the name YHWH appears twice with two different sets of vowel points with the approximate renderings “Yehwoh” and “Yehohiw.” “Yehwoh” derives from the vowel points of Adonai and “Yehohiw” derives from the vowel points of Elohim. When the word Adonai was in close proximity in the text to  YHWH, the Jews added the vowel points from Elohim to YHWH, indicating the reader was to read “Elohim.” This was to reduce redundancy with the Hebrew Adonai.  Strong’s OT:3069 explains this process: “Yehovih (yeh-ho-vee’); a variation of OT:3068 [used after OT:136, and pronounced by Jews as OT:430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce OT:3068 as OT:136]” (for clarification, OT:136 correspondents to “Adonai” and OT:430 to “Elohim”). According to the Englishmans Concordance, OT:3069 is found a total of 615 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.
Those who support Yehovah do so entirely on the vowel points added by the Masoretes. However, as we find in the Leningrad and Aleppo codices, along with many others, there are several different renderings for the Tetragrammaton. How it is possible to reconcile that the Jews both preserved the name Yehovah and explain why they introduced these alternate Hebrew spellings? Those who believe that Yehovah is the correct pronunciation, their only recourse would be to state that these other spellings were mistakes. However, based on the Talmud, the thought of a Jewish scribe making such a mistake, especially to the Divine name, is unthinkable. Jewish scribal rules required that if a Torah Scroll was found to contain any mistakes it could not be used, unless the mistake was resolved within  30 days. If not, the scroll was to be buried. Knowing this, even if these alternative pronunciations were mistakes, to believe that they were all missed and allowed to remain in the text is incredulous.
The other explanation is that the Jews willfully concealed the name with the vowel points from Adonai (as seen in Genesis 2:4 within the Leningrad codex) and Elohim (as seen in Judges 16:28 of the Leningrad and Aleppo codices). Considering the implausibility that the Jews overlooked these alternative spellings, the only logical conclusion is that they were aware and added the vowel points to instruct the reader not to pronounce the Divine name and replace it with the words “Adonai” and “Elohim.” As a side note, the Masoretes would often add the vowel points from Elohim to YHWH when the Tetragrammaton preceded the word “Adonai.” This was to reduce redundancy within the text.

I tend to agree with that statement. It can appear that some of the questions, while feigning interest, are little more than "click-bait" trying to lure JW's into yet more counterproductive interchanges - to attack them and try to weaken their faith. It's a trap the way I see it. While examining the "facts" and how much merit opposing points of view may have, can be valid in my world, there comes a point where you know that with some people it will be just a pointless back-and-forth. They used to be with us but no longer are and I respect their choice to leave. But why would I want to engage with individuals who basically are their own religion? They have have their own personal and singular point of view, but are now on their own - while we as an organization continue to flourish. "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into the pit."
  "And another thing..." It appears that even the experts are in disagreement on exactly how the Divine Name should be pronounced - and this, still going on thousands of years later. It seems to me that the exact pronunciation of how it was originally pronounced is not as important as loving and acknowledging who the name identifies - regardless of whether we pronounce it exactly as it was thousands of years ago. My name is pronounced differently in many different languages, but I still know when I am being addressed and am not so thin-skinned so as to take offence if someone in a different language pronounces it differently from that of my native language. I still know when I am being called in a crowd of people if someone yells it in a different language. It would be entirely different if someone yelled a generic title like "hey Mister" which could refer to anyone. God's name is distinctive enough that most if not all people would know who is being referred to as the Supreme Deity regardless of how it is pronounced in their particular language. It seems to me to be similar to another "tempest-in-a-teapot" argument regarding whether Jesus died on a cross or on a stake. Who cares? The big picture is that his death means something very important to all imperfect humans and we should honour and remember that sacrifice. Not overshadow it with doctrinal posturing (I know both sides do that - I am not really concerned about cross vs stake except for when people find it necessary to act like they are worshipping it.) 
 

Please remember that we are not experts. What people like me say on a forum like this is my opinion. It might be based on facts, and it's possible that I don't understand all the facts. Please don't make such a big deal out of my opinion, no matter how strongly I believe it and state it.

Actually, that's what literally THOUSANDS of people have done, specifically to determine the original pronunciation of God's name. He SAYS no one had thought of doing this kind of research, but he is just trying to get attention for himself. Evidently a lot of people have believed him.
He has never pointed to a manuscript that didn't already have exactly the vowel points that were expected. All the manuscripts he is finding are KNOWN manuscripts with the same vowel pointings that have been known for centuries among scholars.
And like I said these are NOT the oldest manuscripts. They are almost all from a THOUSAND YEARS after Jesus and the apostles. Some are even newer than that.

Exageration?  Gordon is a 'ancient'  Hebrew language  expert not a modern hebrew expert and he found that no-one had thought of doing  research to find ancient manuscripts which had the point system included  to determine the original pronunciation of God's name.  All he did was find the manuscripts which had the points in them which no-one noticed..... that is all.  No one had done any trouble to find them until now!  So all the old conjectures can be thrown out because  the oldest manuscripts do give conclusive answers.

You are the one with blind faith in old information. The newest information is the discovery that more than 1000 Hebrew manuscripts in various libraries all over the world (including the oldest manuscripts in israel) have the point system in the name ( beyond doubt ) is "yehovah" for which the closest pronunciation in English  is jehovah.

Quote. "... lest ones of that minority ‘deceive’ them by ‘manipulation’ and ‘mind control.’ "
Well the CCJW / W/t Soc' certainly deceived a lot of people around the early 1970's.
And they are certainly deceiving a lot of people about the 'Overlapping generations'
And the 'Final part of the Final part of the days'   

Quote. "... lest ones of that minority ‘deceive’ them by ‘manipulation’ and ‘mind control.’ "
Well the CCJW / W/t Soc' certainly deceived a lot of people around the early 1970's.
And they are certainly deceiving a lot of people about the 'Overlapping generations'
And the 'Final part of the Final part of the days'   

When you speak Hebrew or Arabic or some other semitic language - then I speak to you again...... you seem to think you are expert at  the difference between a "letter" and its "phonetical" pronunciation.
So yes have a good laugh - at yourself for not realizing that you do not know the difference. 

I like this.
Of course. 
Putting on airs is one of the most enduring human foibles of all time.

Come come. Are you really a ‘newbie?’ You read very much like an ‘oldbie’ to me.
He doesn’t ‘vote.’ He laughs—like a hyena.

You are exaggerating similar to the way Nehemiah Gordon exaggerates.
Nehemia Gordon has not discovered anything new. What he is doing is pretending that these relatively recent manuscripts are some of the oldest when they are not. He is playing a hyping game, which is a way to get noticed on the Internet these days. Everything that Gordon has found on these Bible manuscripts had already been discussed by Hebrew scholars over the last few hundred years.
And of course, all of the truly ancient Hebrew manuscripts do not have vowel markings. This includes the Dead Sea Scrolls from about 250BC to 68CE. And there are hundreds of instances of the Divine Name in them. Also, of course, the older Hebrew markings on stones, and pottery, jewelry, clay, the "Moabite Stone" [Mesha stele] etc., do not have vowel markings, and some of these go back centuries further. The Christian-era Hebrew/Greek scholars, such as Origen [around 200 CE] took an interest in Hebrew manuscripts, along with the LXX manuscripts, and the pronunciation and representation of YHWH in these manuscripts. There were still no vowel points.
Some inconsistent attempts at vowel pointing started in the 6th century. Yet, even in the most famous manuscript links between the old and the new Masorete manuscripts, we have the Ashkar-Gilson Hebrew Manuscript from the 8th century with no vowel points yet. As you can see below, there is an example of YHWH in the center of the image below, and there are still no vowel points:

The Masoretes started the first useful, consistent vowel pointing system around 850 CE, and the oldest of their manuscripts with vowel pointing come to us in mss from about 950 to the 1100's. And they were still not consistent when it came to vowel pointing YHWH. I copied two examples before when this topic came up, where they sometimes used the vowels that matched the vowels of ELOHIM (God) and usually the vowels that were a closer match for ADONAI (Lord). Gordon simply ignores the ones he doesn't like and pretends to get all excited over the ones that fit his theory, which had already been very well known and dismissed for centuries.
The following statements about Nehemiah Gordon and what he is hyping are not absolutely correct either, but they give the correct idea of the problem:
https://www.snydertalk.com/2018/05/17/17-2018-snydertalk-yahweh-nehemia-gordon-wrong/
Nehemia Gordon is Wrong
The ancient manuscripts that Nehemia Gordon “discovered” aren’t nearly ancient enough.  When the vowel marking process ended in about 1000 AD (1,165 years after rabbis took Yahweh’s Name out of circulation), the scribes preparing the manuscripts followed the Oral Law or the Traditions of the Jews and disguised Yahweh’s Name as the ancient rabbis required.
What Nehemia Gordon “discovered” is evidence of probably the worst mistake anyone has ever made in the history of the world.  He’s contributing to the problem.
Earlier in the article the timeline was made pretty clear:
Look at the Timeline
In about 165 BC, Yahweh’s Name was taken out of circulation . . . .
In about 500 AD, the process of creating vowel markings began.
In about 1000 AD, the vowel marking creation process ended.
About 665 years passed between the time rabbis forbade the use of Yahweh’s Name and the time the vowel marking creation process began.  About 1,165 years passed before the vowel marking creation process ended.  That’s a long time.
 
For reference, there is a good discussion of the Ashkar-Gilson is here. http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_201.pdf
A full discussion needs also to look at the variations in spelling and/or vowel pointing from several of the scrolls coming from the time of transition to vowel pointing:
AS Ashkar-Gilson Manuscript & London Manuscript, Exo-dus, seventh or eighth-century C.E. BS Scroll Bologna University Library, complete Torah, ca.1155–1225 C.E. ES Sheet of Torah Scroll, Loewentheil collection, Exodus, tenth or eleventh-century C.E. BP Codex British Museum Or. 4445, Pentateuch, late ninth or early tenth-century C.E. DP Damascus Pentateuch, late tenth-century C.E. GP Firkovitch II.17, Pentateuch, 929–930 C.E. AC Aleppo Codex, Tenakh, ca.925–935 C.E. LC Leningrad Codex, Tenakh, 1008–1009 C.E. SC Sassoon 1053, Tenakh, tenth-century C.E

I can deal with someone accusatory. And I can deal with someone stupid. But someone accusatory AND stupid I admit I have a difficult time with. That is largely why I am distancing myself from this particular forum in favor ot the smaller one.

Firstly I suppose we should get it straight that it wasn't the GB that decided on the name anyway. 
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Jehovah     Quote :- 
The form Jehovah was used in the 16th century by many authors, both Catholic and Protestant....
 It appeared in the English Bible in Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (1530), 
But this is my last take on the subject as it's getting pointless just disagreeing on it....
Contrary to what some believe, Jehovah is not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. The name Jehovah is a product of mixing different words and different alphabets of different languages. Due to a fear of accidentally taking God’s name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), the Jews basically quit saying it out loud altogether. Instead, when reading Scripture aloud, the Jews substituted the tetragrammaton YHWH with the word Adonai (“Lord”). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translators substituted Kurios (“Lord”) for the Divine Name. Eventually, the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way in between the consonants of YHWH, thus forming YaHWeH. But this interpolation of vowels does not mean that was how God’s name was originally pronounced. In fact, we aren’t entirely sure if YHWH should have two syllables or three.

Any number of vowel sounds can be inserted within YHWH, and Jewish scholars are as uncertain of the real pronunciation as Christian scholars are. Jehovah is actually a much later (probably 16th-century) variant. The word Jehovah comes from a three-syllable version of YHWH, YeHoWeH. The Y was replaced with a J (although Hebrew does not even have a J sound) and the W with a V, plus the extra vowel in the middle, resulting in JeHoVaH. These vowels are the abbreviated forms of the imperfect tense, the participial form, and the perfect tense of the Hebrew being verb (English is)—thus the meaning of Jehovah could be understood as “He who will be, is, and has been.”

So, what is God’s Name, and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is “YAH-way,” “YAH-weh,” or something similar. The name Yahweh refers to God’s self-existence. Yahweh is linked to how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you.”’” God’s name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent or self-sufficient Being. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton, YHWH.
I would think that even when the Org found out it was wrong, they just couldn't go back on what they had been teaching for so long.  It was such a main teaching that it would have broken them to tell the truth. 
 

Quote @Arauna " Even if it is right in front of your face you will not see it because your entire personality (from what I see in your writing) is consumed by hate for the GB and JWs....... to the extent that you are even putting your family at risk on the altar to your hate.  "
Firstly I am not consumed by hate for anyone. It's seems strange to me that it is always the JWs on here that tell other people that the other people hate this or that. 
Unfortunately it is a teaching of CCJW that people 'outside the org' are full of hate and are horrible people. 
Very sad really as JWs in general know this is not true, but they get brainwashed into believing it. 
As for my family, my wife has her own personality and FREE WILL. My 25 year old son is now a grown Man, and he also has his own personality and FREE WILL.  Unlike JWs I do not control my wife, or her thoughts and actions. 
My feelings about the GB are simple, they are not fit for purpose. If they are part of the Slave class then they must be that 'evil slave', the ones that beat their fellow slaves. I've given scripture and reasons for saying this previously.  
And as for JWs, I'm not in contact with many now. My feelings are that JWs generally, here in the UK,  do not think for themselves. And when I've asked an elder for his opinion of certain scriptures, he actually says he will have to go and check up on the 'teaching'. So i feel pity for JWs not hate. But of course they will all be judged for their actions when the 'Day' arrives. 
I'm still searching for truth but I know I won't find any here . But here is good for practice, for research, for bringing scripture back to mind. And i do love the differences of opinions. Especially when someone says they are a JW but then says how their opinions differ from the CCJW. 
I haven't quite got the sense of the GB / CCJW advising JWs to do personal Bible study, but then telling those same JWs, not to have different opinion to the GB / Org. 
As you will already know, my opinion is that the Greek Scriptures are for the Slave Class / Anointed to understand properly, not the Domestics / Earthly Class. 
A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,a to show his slavesb the things that must shortly take place.
 

Whatever it was I was doing, I was NOT guessing .... my intent was to tell a joke, which for those with a well integrated knowledge base would be funny.. Almost all humor has to have some element of truth, and I was counting on the assumption that it would be recognized that years ago it was repeatedly touted from the Watchtower that Baptism was the most important decision you will ever make ... even more important that who you choose to marry, or even getting married or not, in itself ... and required a great deal of maturity to enter into such an adoptive covenant arrangement.
Now ... 8 year old girls are being baptized, which when extrapolated according to previous statements, means they are mature enough to get married, which is absurd.
If it is absurd that they are not mature enough to get married, it follows that it is absurd that they are mature enough to get baptized.  Since 1985, when they changed the terms of baptism as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, the terms of the dedication oath require fealty and allegiance to the WTB&TS, as well as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, what a girl does when she is eight years old makes her liable to be ostracized, shunned, and disfellowshipped at a later date, and banned from associating with everyone she ever knew.
Even Jesus Christ, the perfect Son of God, waited until he was in his early 30's to be baptized.
If we are to follow Jesus' example, what's with letting 8 year old children getting baptized?
...and what is the new younger limit?
Three years old?
That was not a guess .... that was a lament.
 

I notice the small things wherein jehovah has given direction to his people...... Even if it is right in front of your face you will not see it because your entire personality (from what I see in your writing) is consumed by hate for the GB and JWs....... to the extent that you are even putting your family at risk on the altar to your hate.  
You only use the word father or other derivation. .. not the name yehovah AND REFUSE TO SEE THAT THE GB has been vindicated.
I just typed in " call on name" and a list of scriptures like this one came up:
"Give thanks to Jehovah, call on his name ,Make his deeds known among the peoples!  2 Sing to him, sing."    ........so you do not obey the bible when you refuse to use the name of God and use only the word father instead. Are you  sure you obey the bible? 
Zeph 3:9  the pure language is linked  to the entire earth calling on the name of Jehovah.
Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,The survivors whom Jehovah calls...
And jehovah has a 'people' for his name - just turned out the had the name right all along!  Acts 15:14
 

They GB decided to adopt the name with this pronunciation did they not? .  You are dancing all around the subject without making a point. 
You do not see your own reasoning how ficle it is...... so I leave it at that. 

You said it. They go into the past and bring up old stuff to sidestep the issue that the newest information is that the pronunciation is : Yehovah.....in Hebrew... proven beyond doubt by Hebrew manuscripts (one of them the oldest in the world) and it has the points included for the pronunciation.
And we adopted the name with the right pronunciation......jehovahs witnesses,  whether by chance or Jehovah's spirit!