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Patiently waiting for Truth

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    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    Hi Jah4me2, I just created a new topic you in mind about God's willingness to forgive us, according to Scriptures.
  2. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in Forgiveness of sins   
    Here is a list of scriptures showing how deeply our heavenly Father Jehovah God wants to forgive our sins and give us everlasting life. This God proves to us, by going so far that He sent his most loved Son Jesus Christ to earth to teach us and die for our sins in a most painful way.
      So if we feel that we have failed one day, we can be sure we are forgiven if we try better next day. Our sanctification is not possible in one day. So we have to keep on trying to do better everyday. That is a repentive attitude we need in our ongoing sanctification.
     
     
    John 3:16  “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17  For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
     
    1 Timothy 2:3  This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4  whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6  who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
     
    Romans 5:8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9  Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10  For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son,
     
    Titus 3:3  For we too were once senseless, disobedient, led astray, being slaves to various desires and pleasures, carrying on in badness and envy, detestable, hating one another. 4  However, when the kindness of our Savior, God, and his love for mankind were manifested 5  (not because of any righteous works we had done, but because of his own mercy), he saved us by means of the bath that brought us to life and by making us new by holy spirit. 6  He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that after being declared righteous through the undeserved kindness of that one, we might become heirs according to a hope of everlasting life.
     
    Luke 18:10  “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11  The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12  I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward but kept beating his chest, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me, a sinner.’ 14  I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
     
    Luke 5:30….“Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31  In reply Jesus said to them: “Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. 32  I have come to call, not righteous people, but sinners to repentance.”
     
    Luke 7:44  With that he turned to the woman and said to Simon: “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet. But this woman wet my feet with her tears and wiped them off with her hair. 45  You gave me no kiss, but this woman, from the hour that I came in, did not stop tenderly kissing my feet. 46 You did not pour oil on my head, but this woman poured perfumed oil on my feet. 47 Because of this, I tell you, her sins, many though they are, are forgiven, because she loved much. But the one who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48  Then he said to her: “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Those reclining at the table with him started to say among themselves: “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50  But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
     
    2 Timothy 1: 9  He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our works, but because of his own purpose and undeserved kindness. This was given to us in connection with Christ Jesus before times long ago,
     
    Ephesians 2:8  By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9  No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting. 10  We are God’s handiwork and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God determined in advance for us to walk in them.
     
    Romans 10:9  For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
     
    Hebrews 10:10  By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. ….14  For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect for all time. 15  Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: 16 “‘This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.’” 17  Then it says: “And I will no longer call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind.” 18  Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19  Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20  which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22  let us approach with sincere hearts and complete faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.
     
    Hebrews 9:28  so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.
     
    Colossians 1:13…...his beloved Son, 14  by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.
     
    Ephesians 1:7  By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
     
    Acts 26:17….I am sending you [apostle Paul] 18  to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’
     
    Acts 13:37  On the other hand, the one whom God raised up did not see corruption. 38  “Let it therefore be known to you, brothers, that through this one a forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, 39  and that from all the things from which you could not be declared guiltless by means of the Law of Moses, everyone who believes is declared guiltless by means of this one.
     
    Acts 10:34  At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35  but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—this one is Lord of all. 37  You know the subject that was talked about throughout all Ju·deʹa, starting from Galʹi·lee after the baptism that John preached: 38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39  And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead.42  Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
     
    Luke 24:45 5  Then he [Jesus] opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 46  and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47  and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. 48  You are to be witnesses of these things.
     
    Acts 3:19  “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20  and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus.
     
    Hebrews 12:14  Pursue peace with all people and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord.
     
    2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

     
  3. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Witness in ACTS 2 V 16, 17 & 18 IN THE FINAL PART OF THE DAYS   
    ACTS 2 V 16 , 17  & 18.
     On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy
    Jerusalem had the end of it's 'last days' in 70 C. E. But prior to that a 'miracle' happened.  Acts 2 v 1 through 11.
     Now while the day of the Festival of Pentecost was in progress, they were all together at the same place. 2  Suddenly there was a noise from heaven, just like that of a rushing, stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3  And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed, and one came to rest on each one of them, 4  and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.5  At that time devout Jews from every nation under heaven were staying in Jerusalem. 6  So when this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7  Indeed, they were utterly amazed and said: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·leʹans, are they not? 8  How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language? 9  Parʹthi·ans, Medes,g and Eʹlam·ites, the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·taʹmi·a, Ju·deʹa and Cap·pa·doʹci·a, Ponʹtus and the province of Asia, 10  Phrygʹi·a and Pam·phylʹi·a, Egypt and the regions of Libʹy·a near Cy·reʹne, sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,j 11  Creʹtans, and Arabians—we hear them speaking in our languages about the magnificent things of God.
    We are again in 'the last days', so why would you be surprised if God should pour out some of HIS SPIRIT on a true Anointed group of humans. 
    Where is your faith ? Do you no longer believe in God's power ? Do you no longer believe that God can do 'miracles' ?
    Your GB have admitted to NOT BEING INSPIRED OF HOLY SPIRIT.
    Yet here we have in scripture, God's promise that HE WILL POUR OUT SOME OF HIS SPIRIT in the 'last days'. 
    Are we in those LAST DAYS or not ? Do you expect God to act or not ? Or are you just physical men ? 
    Have you lost your 'spiritual eyes' ? Did you in fact even have 'spiritual eyes' ? Are you relying on men and not on God through Christ ? 
     
  4. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in Jesus used to pray   
    Hi friends, I have made a list of scriptures about Jesus' example of taking seriously the need to pray and also other scriptures about prayer.
    And in John 17 we can get an insight to what Jesus could pray about in his intimate prayers.
    It is remarkable that Jesus, who had lived for millions of years in heaven with his Father Jehovah God needed still to pray regularly and seriously.
     
    Luke 5:16 However, he often went into the desolate areas to pray.

    Luke 6:12  On one of those days he went out to the mountain to pray, and he spent the whole night in prayer to God.

    Mark 1:35  Early in the morning, while it was still dark, he got up and went outside and left for an isolated place, and there he began praying.

    Mark 6:45  Then, without delay, he made his disciples board the boat and go on ahead to the opposite shore toward Beth·saʹi·da, while he himself sent the crowd away. 46  But after saying good-bye to them, he went to a mountain to pray.
     
    John 6:11 Jesus took the bread, and after giving thanks, he distributed it to those who were sitting there; he did likewise with the small fish, and they had as much as they wanted.
     
    John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2  just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3  This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5  So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was. 6 “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. 7  Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me. 9  I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those whom you have given me, because they are yours; 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them. 11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12  When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15  “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth. 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25  Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”
     
    Luke 22:40  On arriving at the place, he said to them: “Carry on prayer so that you do not enter into temptation.” 41  And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw away, and he bent his knees and began to pray, 42  saying: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” 43  Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 But he was in such agony that he kept praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground. 45  When he rose from prayer and went to the disciples, he found them slumbering, exhausted from grief. 46  He said to them: “Why are you sleeping? Get up and keep praying, so that you do not enter into temptation.”

    Mark 14:32  So they came to a spot named Geth·semʹa·ne, and he said to his disciples: “Sit down here while I pray.” 33  And he took Peter and James and John along with him, and he began to feel deeply distressed and to be greatly troubled. 34  He said to them: “I am deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch.” 35 And going a little way forward, he fell to the ground and began praying that, if it were possible, the hour might pass away from him. 36  And he said: “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.” 37  He returned and found them sleeping, and he said to Peter: “Simon, are you sleeping? Did you not have the strength to keep on the watch for one hour? 38  Keep on the watch and pray continually, so that you do not come into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.” 39  And he went away again and prayed, saying the same thing.

    Luke 11:1 Now he was in a certain place praying, and when he stopped, one of his disciples said to him: “Lord, teach us how to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.”2  So he said to them: “Whenever you pray, say: ‘Father, let your name be sanctified. Let your Kingdom come. 3  Give us each day our bread according to our daily needs. 4 And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is in debt to us; and do not bring us into temptation.’”

    Matthew 6:9  “You must pray, then, this way:
    “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10  Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. 11  Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13  And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’

    Luke 11:13  Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”

    Luke 18:1 Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up, 2  saying: “In a certain city there was a judge who had no fear of God and no respect for man. 3  There was also a widow in that city who kept going to him and saying, ‘See that I get justice from my legal opponent.’ 4  Well, for a while he was unwilling, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Although I do not fear God or respect any man, 5  because this widow keeps making me trouble, I will see that she gets justice so that she will not keep coming and wearing me out with her demand.’” 6  Then the Lord said: “Hear what the judge, although unrighteous, said! 7 Certainly, then, will not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, while he is patient toward them? 8  I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?”

    Luke 18:9  He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10  “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11  The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12  I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward but kept beating his chest, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me, a sinner.’ 14  I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Matthew 7:7-11 “Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you; 8  for everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened. 9  Indeed, which one of you, if his son asks for bread, will hand him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, he will not hand him a serpent, will he? 11  Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him!


    2 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men, 2  concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness.

    Mark 9:28  So after he entered into a house, his disciples asked him privately: “Why could we not expel it?” 29  He said to them: “This kind can come out only by prayer.”

    1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that no matter what we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15  And if we know that he hears us concerning whatever we are asking, we know that we are to have the things we ask for, since we have asked them of him.

    Ephesians 6:18 while with every form of prayer and supplication you carry on prayer on every occasion in spirit. And to that end stay awake, constantly making supplication in behalf of all the holy ones.

    Jude 20  But you, beloved ones, build yourselves up on your most holy faith, and pray with holy spirit,


    1 Thessalonians 5:17  Pray constantly. 18  Give thanks for everything. This is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians 3:16  I pray that he may grant you through the abundance of his glory to be made mighty in the man you are inside, with power through his spirit, 17  and that through your faith you may have the Christ dwell in your hearts with love. May you be rooted and established on the foundation, 18  in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19  and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.
  5. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Witness in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    Oh @Anna you make me laugh. you really do. Are you so blind ?
    Do you not know of the perversions and immorality in your CCJW ? 
    Do you honestly think that Almighty God and/or Christ is guiding your GB and its org ?
    I think that your GB are Christians in name only. I think that CCJW is Christian in name only.
    You only have to look at the way the GB's Lawyers treat Victims of CSA. And look at how they are still hiding Paedophiles in the American part of your Org. 
    And there have been plenty of things mentioned on this forum, mentioned by JWs it would seem, that show up the CCJW for what it really is. 
    Going back a couple of years we had JWs on here telling how many weapons they have stored up in their homes. and one of those JWs seems to think that God is not bothered by war. 
    I'm sure you have heard many JWs say things that you are not happy with, so please don't be so quick to judge others outside of CCJW. 
    As a non active one, i can say that my faith in God and Christ is much stronger.  I feel 'free' to do my own investigating into God's word. i think in a more spiritual way. My prayers are not hindered. I am not putting my trust in men. I am not relying on being spoon fed every Sunday Watchtower which is only men's thoughts and words. Those thoughts and words which are not inspired of God. 
    And you must remember too, that your GB and its org deliberately shun anyone that leaves the Org. So your GB and its Org members are also not showing love, mercy, mildness or kindness. 
  6. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    Strictly speaking, WT and GB failed in fundamental instruction made by Paul.
    ...Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you...
    ... 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.
    All sort of programs, activities in HQ and WT Branches have people who not earn daily brad with own hands, but with donated money. Yes they working something. That is not issue. But their "products" should not be for "sale" and  for making money for "daily brad", pocket money, healthcare, pension, accommodation etc. This is way how one group of people living on cost of other group of people. And this forms classes inside "you all are brothers".  
    Some JW members are fascinate more some less with individuals inside Bethels and Bethel service as whole. In general JW's minds these places are sort of "center of spirituality and spiritual paradises". Both sides contribute to such misapprehensions. 
    World HQ and Branches not contributing to "quiet life" with these structure, system that is same as in some other organizations who living on cost of members. Never ending alerts about "end is near" making JW people to live in "mental and spiritual noise", and that for sure can't bring to "live quietly and to mind your own business". Because, living in alert state don't bring to inside silence and tranquility... but to many "futile" lives, or lives that could be used for something more.  GB contributed and still doing today to so many explanations on "times and seasons" multiple and repeated writings, publishing materials .. contrary to Paul who wrote 20 century before - you need nothing to be written to you.  
     
  7. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    True, and this is why it can be said that those who leave the Christian congregation, or those who become Christians in name only, generally stop producing the fruitage of the spirit because Jehovah no longer gives it to them.....they "receive" a rebelious spirit instead. I see this plainly whenever I visit the ex-JW website and read their banter with each other. For the most part there is no mildness, patience, faith or self control. More like selfishness, sarcasm, haughtiness, and of course no faith....
  8. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    I thought I was pointing out something that was obvious. The spirit may very well reveal a specific assignment in heaven or on earth. But it's the same spirit. Regarding Galatians 5:22, have you ever heard anyone say that the fruitage of the spirit (love, joy, peace . . . kindness, goodness, faith, etc.) is only for those who are anointed? No one ever says that. Except that the entire book of Galatians was sent to those addressed like this:
    (Galatians 4:6, 7) . . .Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.
    To the Romans, Paul said the same things he says in Galatians 4&5:
    (Romans 8:14-17) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.
    The statements are about how there are only two choices, the spirit or the flesh. So I'm not saying anything about the specific anointing for the heavenly hope. That's a separate issue. Whether we believe we are appointed to a heavenly hope or appointed to an earthly hope, it's still the same "one hope, one faith, one baptism" for the creation which is currently sighing and groaning to eagerly await the revealing of the sons of God. If Adam was a son of God, although appointed to an earthly hope, then surely there will come a time when those who pass through the millennium, at least, although of the earthly hope, will also be considered "sons of God." I also believe that this same spirit will reveal a desire for a heavenly hope for some, although I don't really believe that we humans are really capable of knowing exactly where Jehovah may wish to assign our part in the new system.
    (1 Corinthians 12:22-26) . . .On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 whereas our attractive parts do not need anything. Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.
    Remember that the first will be last, and the last first, etc. Those who seat themselves at the front can be sent to the back and vice versa. There are vessels of all kinds, and we are "glorified" whether we end up taking a seat at God's footstool or a place at the right hand of Jesus.
    (Romans 8:18-25) . . .For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.
    So maybe Paul is giving ALL of us this idea about accepting the spirit into our hearts, the same spirit that makes Christians adopted as sons. The same spirit that makes all of "brothers." Do you think only the anointed should pray, "Our Father in heaven, let your name be sanctified?" If Jehovah is our Father then we are his children, his sons. We would therefore call him "Abba" in Aramaic. This is not an intimate expression special to the anointed. It does not mean "papa" or "daddy" in some childish sense. It's the word that adults also used in Aramaic to refer to their father respectfully. This is also made clear by what Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew:
    (Matthew 23:8, 9) . . .and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father [Aramaic, "Abba"], the heavenly One.
    It has nothing to do with what the governing body is supposedly saying. Also, the governing body has never said, and will never likely ever say, that the elders are part of the 144,000. The elders will never be considered a part of Christ's body except to the small extent that they represent and help deliver the spiritual food provided by the faithful slave.
  9. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to John Houston in 1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.   
    How would the 12 run things today, this global range of worshippers of Jehovah? Would they write letters still, go by ship, and walk? Could they travel freely from country to country with all the border laws that are in place now? What about the laws to own property and even assemble? Could they function as they did then, now? They would need one central location, just as they took care of the problem with the widows and delegated it out to spiritually qualified persons, because they could not personally tamp out each fire. If Moses was suggested to gather around him ones would could be given such responsibilities, that would hold true today with such world wide reach. The daily business grind itself, is more than the apostles could ever fathom having to deal with when Jesus told them to take this to the most distant part of the earth. Like Koran who had some rumbling about how Moses was doing his job, we should not have such rumblings. If what they are doing is not in line with Jehovah's purposes, don't you think he will correct it? Hasn't he as we have learned over and over again? Why now in the modern time should Jehovah be weak or slow? Why now should he need our help? Have we gotten more enlightened since the days of Moses, since Pentecost 33? If Jehovah has not changed, then he will still take care of HIS ORGANIZATION, not one to be mutinied by restless imperfect humans. While Eli's sons seemed to be getting away with bloody murder, Jehovah in the end took care and cleaned out the filth, correct? He can't now? We know more than Jehovah in these last days, really?
  10. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.
     
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Institutions Who Haven’t Signed For Redress May Be Stripped of Charity Status   
    "The ruthless will vanish,
        the mockers will disappear,
        and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down—
    21 those who with a word make someone out to be guilty,
        who ensnare the defender in court
        and with false testimony deprive the innocent of justice."  Isa 29:20,21
     
     
    Peter Kelso National Redress Scheme February 19, 2020   Government will strip the charity status from churches who miss the National Redress Scheme deadline
    Minister for Families and Social Services, Ms Anne Ruston says the government may strip charity status from churches and organisations that fail to sign up to the National Redress Scheme.
    They will also lose tax exemption status.
    Senator Ruston said the government had accepted “every recommendation that we are able to accept” in its response to the standing committee’s recommendations for the Scheme it returned on Monday, and that it should be announced publicly within 48 hours.
    She also said about 700 victims’ applications have had to be put on hold because there is no organisation signed up to match them with. Many organisations (such as Swimming Australia) aren’t signing up due to fears of becoming bankrupt.
    One major group which has not signed up to the Redress Scheme is the Jehovah’s Witnesses (the JW’s). The Royal Commission heard that 1,006 plausible complaints of child sexual abuse had been received by the JW’s in Australia but no alleged perpetrators had been reported to the police. It appears that the JW’s would have a substantial financial exposure if it joined the Scheme.
    Alternatively, the JW’s may be stripped of its charity status if it fails to sign up by the 30 June 2020 deadline.
    The JW’s have refused to remove sex offenders from congregations unless the victim can produce a second witness. The organisation was criticized for its ‘Second Witness Rule’ by the Royal Commission.
    The JW’s global operations are controlled by a Governing Body of eight men from JW headquarters in Warwick, New York State, USA. The decision to join or not to join the Redress Scheme is the responsibility of the US Governing Body.
    JW’s have a history of distrust of the government, refusing to vote and avoiding military service. They are banned in China, Russia, Singapore and most Muslim majority countries. They are most active in the USA, Mexico and Brazil. JW’s were once banned in Canada.
    On the other hand, Hillsong Church and the leading Pentecostal umbrella group, Australian Christian Churches, have all signed up to the National Redress Scheme. (Hillsong Church is now a separate legal entity from ACC).
    The addition of non-government institutions, including Hillsong Church, Australian Christian Churches (ACC), C3 Churches, Churches of Christ, Baptists, Christian Schools Australia and Barnardo’s Australia, has more than doubled the number of non-government groups in the scheme from 67 to 162 in one year.
    Get the justice you deserve with Kelso Lawyers. We want to hear your story. Call (02) 4907 4200 or complete the online form before you accept payment from the National Redress Scheme.
    https://kelsolawyers.com/au/institutions-who-havent-signed-for-redress-will-be-stripped-of-charity-status
  12. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    When it comes to identifying writings that belong in the inspired canon, we can look to whether the writing reflects the fruitages of the spirit. We can start with what we know, and then build from there using common sense and spiritual principles.
    First of all, let's say we were to accept the restrictive criteria of modern scholars who don't really care for the spiritual value of the content of scripture. Even these scholars will generally all agree that Paul was the writer of several of the letters, and since Paul wrote them, it must have been between his conversion and his death. Therefore Google would return this on a query about Paul's actual letters:
    Seven letters (with consensus dates) considered genuine by most scholars: First Thessalonians (c. 50 AD) Galatians (c. 53) First Corinthians (c. 53–54) Philippians (c. 55) Philemon (c. 55) Second Corinthians (c. 55–56) Romans (c. 57) Some would add another book or two, but these are considered to be a core set of Paul's writings that few would argue with. So now we could read these carefully and extrapolate that there is really nothing in Ephesians, Colossians, or 2 Thessalonians that teaches anything different from these books. And we could continue on from there. Any doctrine in those other letters conforms perfectly with the accepted letters. In fact, they could have easily grown out of combinations of writings that congregations from many places had collected from multiple real letters, real speeches, and real sayings. Just as John said of Jesus that many more scrolls could be written of things he did and said, the same could have been true of Paul, whose ministry was probably nearly 10 times longer than that of Jesus.
    Of course, we also have Luke who said that there were many other Gospels about Jesus. And we have Paul already mentioning that letters might show up "as though from us [Paul and his companions]." The reason to be careful of any of these additional gospels or letters would be if they taught a different doctrine. Paul said that different doctrine should not be accepted, even if it came from an angel out of heaven. This is another way of saying that Paul knew the gospel he preached was authorized by Christ Jesus himself. His "word" or his "gospel" embodied the spirit of Christ.
    So Paul's core writings can become the touchstone by which we could evaluate the rest of the Christian Greek Scriptures. (And by extension, quotes from Paul referencing the Hebrew Scriptures give us a core set of Hebrew Scritpures to do the same with if anyone were to doubt a core canon of Hebrew Scriptures.)
    We know that already in the first century there were additional writings that were already beginning to represent Jesus within a different doctrinal structure. Jesus was not being accepted everywhere as a real physical person born in the line of David, who had preached, and been killed under Pontius Pilate, and had been resurrected to heaven. Some were beginning to teach an atheistic version of Jesus who had not really existed or died in a physical sense, but who merely embodied secret knowledge that only a few special teachers could explain.
    But this actually helps us define the inspired canon. During Paul's life he made clear the full, necessary "gospel" and also made it clear that there were things that others might be saying that were not necessary, or even harmful to that message.
    (1 Thessalonians 3:12-5:1) . . .  4 Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. 2 For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. . . .  just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. . . .9 However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. . . . 11 Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything. . . . 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.
    They needed no more doctrinal instruction. The spirit itself taught them by God how to love one another, and live decently. They needed nothing more to be written about the "times and seasons," either. There was a lot of "falsely called knowledge" being spoken about, but Paul focused on the important part of the Gospel.
    (1 Corinthians 1:30-2:2) 30 But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, 31 so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.” 2 So when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with extravagant speech or wisdom declaring the sacred secret of God to you. 2 For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and him executed on the stake.
    After Paul, teachers would try to gain a following by creating new "knowledge" and "sacred secrets" and use human wisdom to create a Christian "philosophy" or "gnosis" even to the point of denying an actual human Christ who was impaled. It was based on Greek philosophies and human wisdom rather than wisdom from God.
    But because of this development, we end up with statements about how to identify any writing from the first century that was acceptable and which ones were unacceptable. We can get to the canonicity of 1 John later, but it provides a perfectly good touchstone for identifying additional writings from the first century that were to be considered acceptable.
    (1 John 4:1-6) 4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them. 6 We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.
    So, based on the well-attested idea that this was written by the end of the first century, it is saying that all known Christian writings up to that time were known to be "inspired" as long as they were not of the type that denied the physical, fleshly existence of Jesus Christ. This is a fairly simple criterion for first century Christian documents. No other significant doctrinal issue was competing with true Christian documents by the end of the first century. This was timely, too, because we know a lot about these gnostic beliefs from about 120 to 300 CE. Paul was in line with this same idea when he said:
    (1 Corinthians 12:1-3) . . .Now concerning the spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were people of the nations, you were influenced and led astray to those voiceless idols, following wherever they might lead you. 3 Now I would have you know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit.
    Much more to say of course, but this is a long and complex topic.
  13. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    I will know it is so when the year text is from the Book of BuffaloSpringfield:
    “Step out of line, the man comes to take you away.”
  14. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    A very good question. Love believes all things. Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't also question all things. Believe everything as possibly right, and question everything as possibly wrong. But questioning everything would require every one of us to become scholars. But relying on most scholars can be dangerous too. Most modern scholars these days are not faithful to the Bible as God's word. One excuse is to question the canon itself, and what scholars do accept as canonical for the early Christians is still not considered "inspired."
    But some common sense that all of us should have will lead us in the right direction. A major concern of yours has been that only a modern-day anointing by holy spirit will explain everything to us, and you always tend to push this off into the future, although you recognize that it is needed now. The person you know as BTK and whom many old-timers here recognize as A.S. has already hit upon one of the keys to recognizing where this "holy spirit" can be found.
    The "Word of God" is not an expression in the Bible that refers to a specific set of 66 books. When we say the Word of God, we often mean "the Bible" but that's not the use of the expression in the Bible itself. Also, the expression "the spirit" does not always refer to God's active force acting like a separate entity to inspire perfect knowledge. In fact, if one reads Romans and Galatians for example, you can see that Christians have a choice of accepting the spirit or not, and that even those of us who do not consider ourselves "anointed" must strive for the same measure of this holy spirit as those who consider themselves "anointed." (It's quite probable that Allen Smith/Billy the Kid actually does consider himself to be anointed based on several things he has said concerning this topic, but that doesn't change the primary point.)
    In Galatians, Paul speaks with the same terms he uses in Romans about the "anointing" of holy spirit. He speaks in both Romans and Galatians about the purpose and effect of this anointing. But in Galatians it's clear that the holy spirit must have the same effect in the lives of all Christians. To this extent, all of us must be implanted with the seed of holy spirit. And what grows from that seed of holy spirit counteracts the works of "the flesh." The holy spirit makes certain fruits grow in all of us. Note:
    (Galatians 3:29-5:26) . . .Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s [seed] offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. .. . . 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, . . . 22 For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent and the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. 25 Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. . . . 31 So, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman. [Chap 5] For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore, stand firm, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. . . . 5 For our part, we are by spirit eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness resulting from faith. . . . 13 You were called to freedom, brothers; only do not use this freedom as an opportunity to pursue fleshly desires, but through love slave for one another. 14 For the entire Law has been fulfilled in one commandment, namely: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” . . . 16 But I say, Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all. 17 For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you do not do the very things you want to do. 18 Furthermore, if you are being led by spirit, you are not under law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, . . . 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. . . . 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.
    So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control. LHM highlighted love and faith and added obedience. This is appropriate too, as obedience to one another is a way of walking orderly by spirit. Paul used the expression, "slave for one another" which is also a recognition that we should always be prepared to accept orders from one another, as long as they are in line with love and faith.
    My point is that by thinking about what this "spirit" produces, we can use common sense to know what we should accept as "inspired." We can see how all of it fits the core teachings that fit the spirit of Christ Jesus.
    Identifying books to be included in the inspired canon seems to be simpler process that others might be overthinking. It's based on some expected principles and a little common sense. To keep from going on too long, I'll pick up on that point in the next post.
  15. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    Hello @Srecko Sostar Thank you, and i can see that you also are looking deeper into spiritual things. 
    Quote "How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. 
    I agree with you, and I feel that inspiration from God's holy spirit is needed now. 
    Quote "And of course, what of writings are truly inspired by God, and what was just history (true or little made up)? "
    Have you seen the list of writings that @JW Insider kindly supplied on my other recent topic ?
    It will take me many months to even just browse all of them.  Where i have started to look it has caused questions for me. 
    I have a fear that many people join CCJW / JW Org, so that they do not have to think for themselves. 
    But on leaving that 'situation' one has a choice. One can go back into the world, or, one can seek spiritual things. 
    I do firmly believe that God, through Christ, will give spiritual inspiration to the true Anointed sometime in the near future. It would seem unfair ( to me ) that God and Christ would expect humans to unravel truth from lies, and to be able to completely work out Bible prophecies without Holy Spirit for guidance. 
     
     
  16. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    @Kosonen  Thank you for your reply. However the plot deepens :-
    The Book of Acts or Acts of the Apostles.
    The NWT has it that the writing of  Acts was 'completed' c.61 
    However looking online I find this :-
    Acts was apparently written in Rome, perhaps between ad 70 and 90, though some think a slightly earlier date is also possible.
    And this :-
    Acts and the Gospel of Luke make up a two-part work, Luke–Acts, by the same anonymous author, usually dated to around 80–90 AD.
    So we already have questions as to When was the Acts of the Apostles written ? 
    This also leads to another question, one which i have raised before. 
    You have quoted Acts 17 v 11.
    " Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. "
    Now here's the rub. Exactly what 'scriptures' were they examining ? 
    Surely they only had the Hebrew writings ? A. Because not all the Greek writings had been written. B. Because the Greek writings that had been written would not yet have been gathered into a 'collection'.  
    One also wonders if the Apostles would have carried around a 'bundle of scrolls' to read from ? Or would only have had reference in synagogues where the copies of scrolls (Hebrew Scriptures) would have been kept. Hence :-
    Acts 17 v 10 
     Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
    ( I've always presumed that the Apostles spoke from memory whilst being inspired of God's Holy spirit. ) 
    This brings another question. Regarding Acts 17 v 11 " carefully examining the Scriptures daily "   Would the Bereans / Boreans / Beroeans  have had access to the Hebrew scrolls daily ?  Were the Synagogues left open for anyone to go into to examine the scrolls ?
    If the scrolls were guarded by the Jews, would Christians have had access ? 
     
  17. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    You made excellent topic !
    "Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent."
    How much reasonable is to expect and believe that "uninspired" people made selection of "inspired" scriptures?
    How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. When Bible speaking about time when "miracle gifts" will stop and disappear why we conclude how that was stop in the long past (1st century), and will be again in a far future? (Or not so far, but before 1914 generation end, die :)) )
    And of course, what of writings are truly inspired by God, and what was just history (true or little made up)?
  18. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    Hi 4Jah2me,
    According to these scriptures it is very good to examine scriptures to make sure. I check very often interlinear translations to see if the New world translation translates correctly.
    1Thessalonians 5:21 Make sure of all things;
    Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 
  19. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon   
    What should we believe and what should we question ? What should we just accept and what should we research ? 
    How deep should we dig in order to find truth ? 
    How do we really know what TRUTH is ?
    Yes I'm asking serious questions and trying to dig very deeply
    THE BIBLE CANON.
    Now here is a lovely place to start digging. And here is a lovely place to ask ourselves, Should we just accept the Bible Canon as it is ?
    “Canon” is a Greek word meaning “rule” or “measuring stick.” So the Bible canon is the 'accepted' 66 writings that the Bible holds.
    Should we accept this canon or question it ? Do you know that many 'Bible scholars' did not and do not agree on the Bible canon ?
    140 C. E.  Marcion rejected the Old Testament, along with any writings that might reinforce views other than his own. He developed a list of books he considered acceptable: portions of the Gospel of Luke, ten of Paul’s letters, plus a letter purportedly from Paul to the Alexandrians. This list is known as the Marcion Canon.    After Marcion and Montanus, lists of New Testament books begin to appear. One of the first was The Muratorian Fragment. It was discovered among the Vatican’s sacred documents by historian Ludovico Antonio Muratori in 1740 and dates to about A.D. 190. The fragment is damaged. The portion we possess begins with “the third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke.” We assume the first and second Gospels to be Matthew and Mark. The fragment lists John, Acts, all of Paul’s letters, James, 1-2 John, Jude and the Revelation of John. It also includes the Revelation of Peter, the Wisdom of Solomon and (“to be used in private, but not public worship”) the Shepherd of Hermas.   In 367, Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter that contained all twenty-seven books of our present New Testament. In 393 the Synod of Hippo affirmed our current New Testament, and in 397 the Council of Carthage published the same list.   But :-   In the first and second centuries after Christ, many, many writings and epistles were circulating among the Christians. Some of the churches were using books and letters in their services that were definitely spurious. Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent. Heretical movements were rising, each one choosing its own selected Scriptures, including such documents as the Gospel of Thomas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Epistle of Barnabas.   The Council of Carthage established the orthodox New Testament canon in 397 AD; it was upheld at the Council of Trent in 1545. By the way, Protestants and Catholics are in agreement with their use of the same New Testament. However, were any of those men true servants of God through Christ ?  Were they guided by God / Holy Spirit ? The scriptures talk about men entering into the 'congregation' / organisation that would mislead many and not act is a truthful way.     A small point but of interest, is in Paul's Letter to the Colossians Ch 4 v 16  "And when this letter has been read among you, arrange for it also to be read in the congregation of the La·o·di·ceʹans and for you also to read the one from La·o·di·ceʹa. "   Here we read that Paul mentions his letter to the congregation of Laodicea, and a little bit of research will find this letter.  To the Laodiceans   1 Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, to the brethren who are of Laodicea. 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.   20 And cause [this letter] to be read to the Colossians and that of the Colossians to you.   There is not much in the letter to Laodicea but, if the translation I've found is correct then it is one of Paul's letters. And it was important enough to Paul to mention in both letters Colossians and Laodiceans to read both to both congregations.   So, why is it not in the Bible canon ?    At this point i must thank @JW Insider for his work and for his giving me much information concerning other writings of 'Scripture' and history of Bible times. Thank you.    I was not aware, A, that so many other 'writings of scripture' had been written, B, that so many still exist and are available to read online.    But this poses a question. If we believe that God, through Holy Spirit, has kept 'His written word' 'alive' and available for all to read, then who has kept all those other 'writings of scripture' available for all to read ? and why ?   How much should we investigate and how much should we just accept ?    The Bible Canon is just a starting point. We could follow up with, Do we accept the translation we have or should we try to compare it to the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ?  How close to the original Hebrew and Greek can we get ? What does God and Christ expect of us ? Do they expect us to dig deeper than just reading the translation of the Bible that we have ?   
  20. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in 1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.   
    Yes that is a real problem. I don't think that is right that the GB tells to trust them and punishes jws if they tell aloud that they think the GB is wrong in some issues. It is so ridiculous that if you have a doctrinal question to the elders, the only answer the elders will give is what has been written in the litterature and if there is no answer in the litterature to clarify a question, then they say to wait on Jehovah. It is so ridiculous that elders and even circuit overseers will categorically refuse to reason on scriptures that show that a particular current JW doctrine is wrong.
    Yes, really christians can survive spiritually without a JW GB. 
    And Jesus told parabels about his slaves that got minas, and talents. And in these parabels Jesus sends these slaves directly himself without any middle man, such as GB. And when Jesus returns, then he himself will settle accounts with his slaves. So Jesus' slaves will not have a GB as master when he returns. 
    Yes, everything points to the fact that the final years up to Jesus' return there will not exist any GB. 
    Instead it looks like a single faithful and discreet slave will get the responibility to feed JWs the final years up to Jesus' return.
    In Malachi, there is a prophecy that a modern day Elijah will come before the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.
     
    Malachi 4:5  “Look! I am sending to you E·liʹjah the prophet+ before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.+ 6  And he will turn the hearts of fathers back toward sons,+ and the hearts of sons back toward fathers, so that I may not come and strike the earth, devoting it to destruction.”
    Yes, really as you have realized, there was no such Governing Body in the first century as the GB of JWs. The GB of JWs is more like the Jewish Sanhedrin that was in religious charge until Jesus came. 
    In the Christian Greek scriptures I have only found once that a doctrinal matter was resolved by a group of apostles and elders of Jerusalem. 
    The rest was already established by Jesus, while he was on earth and by individual letters from apostels and other writers of the Christian Greek scriptures.
  21. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Kosonen in 1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.   
    Quote @JW Insider  " This is not the topic with which to discuss the canon, or authenticity, .. "
    Are you suggesting another topic to discuss such or are you saying we should not discuss such ?
    I'm becoming of the opinion that there was NO 'Governing Body' of the 1st Century Christians. And that with the deaths of the Apostles and with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C. E. there was NO central form of 'rulership' over the Congregations of Christians of that time. 
    Galatians 1, v 15 through 20
    But when God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through his undeserved kindness, thought good 16  to reveal his Son through me so that I might declare the good news about him to the nations,m I did not immediately consult with any human;* 17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus.n18  Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. 19  But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. 20  Now regarding the things I am writing you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.
    I also read this account by Fred Franz 
    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/239363/there-first-century-governing-body-fred-franzs-view
    Which seems to make it clear that Jesus was not working through a central 'rulership' or GB at the time of Paul's missionary work.
    ""And they [members of the Antioch congregation] laid their hands upon Paul or Saul and Barnabas and sent them forth, as a number of translations read, sent 'em forth! And then they went forth by the Holy Spirit operating through the Antioch congregation and they went out on their first missionary assignment. So you see, the Lord Jesus Christ was acting as the head of the congregation and taking action directly, without consulting any body here on earth what he could do or what he could not do! And he acted in that way with regard to Saul and Barnabas, an they were both apostles of the Antioch congregation, and so they went out to the work and had great success..."
    No matter what personal opinions people have of Fred Franz, his words above (if the quote is correct) seem to make good sense. 
    The fact that there is a Governing Body of the Watchtower and CCJW is just a fact. But to try to say that they are based on a first century 'Governing Body' seems to be lies. There is no proof of any 1st Century Governing Body at all. 
    So, the question remains, Did each congregation rule itself ?  This quote from FF above concerning Antioch seems to say that Antioch made it's own decisions whilst being guided by Holy Spirit. 
    I can see that i need to do much more research. 
     
  22. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in "MAJOR BREAKING NEWS - Fundamental Watchtower Doctrines Out"   
    Yes, anyone, anointed or not anointed, can leave Christ and become disobedient to his teachings.  Demas is a good example of someone who left Jesus’ teachings for the “things in the world” – the world at that time period and its religious environment.   2 Tim 4:10; 1 John 2:15
    I agree that in the first century there were people chosen by God through the anointing of Holy Spirit as “firstfruits” – the first of the children of God.  They were those whom Christ promised to send with good news (John 13:20; Matt 10:14; James 1:18)  And many became believers in Christ who were baptized with water. They received Jesus and understood his words, through the blessing of Holy Spirit.  Acts 2:38-41  The last supper of Christ was attended by only his close disciples - it was they who entered the "New Covenant".  Many believed in Christ and were baptized, but he did not invite all to be his Bride; who as the fulfilled covenant of life, would with Christ bring life to all in the Kingdom.   (Isa 42:6; 2:2-4; John 15:16; Luke 2:32; Acts 13:47; Rom 4:13; Rev 21:1-4)  All believers receive the promise of life through the New Covenant, but at different times.  
    Paul stated:
    “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.  We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.” Rom 8:19-23 (Zech 4:8-10)
    With that revealing of the Bride/anointed sons of “Israel”/”144,000”, “freedom and glory” comes to the rest of God’s children in the Kingdom.  Rev 22:17
    The problem is what the GB is telling all of you.  It appears to me that Splane is building a case to give credence for a change about to happen. The more I ponder on it, the more it appears that the 144,000 teaching as applying to just the anointed will be eliminated.  Here is the foundation for the stage being set: 
    WT 2016, Jan. pg 24-26
    Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus was resurrected. It seems that in the first century, all true Christians were anointed. For hundreds of years after that, most of those who said that they were Christians did not really follow Christ. Even so, during those years, Jehovah anointed those few who were true Christians. 
    Four years later, we find almost word-for-word, the same quote:
    WT 2020, Jan. pg 30-31: 
    Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus was resurrected. It seems that in the first century, all true Christians were anointed. In the centuries that followed, most of those who claimed that they were Christians did not really follow Christ. Even so, during those years, Jehovah anointed the few who were true Christians. 
     
    In his talk, Splane compares the numbers of growth of only anointed in the first century, to the amount of newly baptized ones from 1983 onward; emphasizing again, the number “144,000” which ordinarily applies to the anointed in WT's teachings.  
    I believe the question is, what will JWs think if the teaching is dropped totally.  What will the anointed who are with you, feel about this?   Already, there is no anointed priesthood utilized by God in the organization, except for the GB. (1 Pet 2:5,9; Mal 2:7)  Elders are honored, while anointed are told to be humble and quiet.  They are told not to share their anointing with anyone, or to bond together as an anointed group.  (Isa 29:4)
    “And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.” 2 Cor 11:2
    And, elders not anointed have the authority to judge an anointed/dwelling of God’s Spirit/ as deserving of a spiritual death. (1 Cor 3:16,17) (John 16:2; Rom 14:4; Rev 13:15) 
    Splane remarks that there are no gifts of the spirit, but "Gentile" elders not of “Israel” are somehow appointed by God as your leaders, as “gifts in men”.  Can you imagine any anointed ones in the first century tolerating this type of oppression against them?
    “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, talking nonsense against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.”  3 John 1:9-10
    God's priesthood is conquered in the last days, not by a literal army holding guns, but by malicious, blasphemous words against them. (Rev 13:5-7) (Num 18:7; 2 Chron 13:9)  Already, it has been mentioned by the elders that every JW is part of the Body of Christ, which was once truthfully, taught as comprised of the anointed “Bride” to come. (1 Cor chapter 12; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 2:20-22)  If all JWs are subsequently told they are the “temple” of God, as S. Herd has stated, there will be very little difference between WT’s teachings and those in Christendom. The Temple, dwelling of God, is the symbolic 144,000.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 14:1)
    God's holy people have only been conquered by any nation, when they have sinned.  This was the result of false teachings and idolatry.  Since the organization holds out the promise of salvation over and above Jesus Christ alone, (John 14:6) what do you think God and Christ feel about the actions of their anointed priesthood today submitting to lies said about them?  Who are the anointed ones fallen from God's favor?  Isn't it those who preach falsehoods that you admittedly recognize?  (Rev 8:10,11; 17:1; 13:11; Matt 24:24)
    False prophets were among God’s people in the past, as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction. 2 Many people will follow them in their destructive waysand will cause others to dishonor the way of truth. 3 In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you. The verdict against them from long ago is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep."  2 Pet 2:1-3
     Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12
     
     
     https://pearl-disgustingthing.blogspot.com/
  23. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in BRAZIL: WATCH TOWER CLAIM RAID ON PREMISES UNLAWFUL   
    If WT is not able to control their own people behavior .....let them dfd all, all those who are out of control :)))))))
    Now, let us be serious. Systematic program of Elder Body Judicial Committee is to put people's (bad or not bad, question is open) behavior inside controlled boarders. Boarders are made by Bible Principles and by WT human rules. Sometimes they are in collision, but that is another issue. 
    It would be nice to see all those "clear instruction/s" about CSA issue from, as you said 50's to nowadays. I am sure how WT organization made few "clarification" about same issue because "light getting brighter" from day to day. Do you or some other people here have some time to show us documented "progress" or "invariable instructions" on this subject in that period of about 70 years? Articles, magazines, BOE and CO letters and other inside official and unofficial conversations of those who creating organizational policy. 
  24. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in "MAJOR BREAKING NEWS - Fundamental Watchtower Doctrines Out"   
    David Splane continues:
    “By the end of the century, he certainly had shown he had blessed the efforts of the brothers, do you know that every year since 1983 more than 144,000 have been baptized each year and our brothers today don’t have the gifts of the spirit. 
    So what does this indicate?  It indicates that Jehovah has made a mighty outpouring of his spirit in these last days.  It’s a marvelous thing to behold.  When you think of it, we sort of had our explanation backwards in the past, because in the past the idea was that the spirit was poured out in 1919 and the locust went to work because the locust were Jehovah’s people.  But that’s not what the Bible says, is it.  The Bible says the locust finished their work and after that the spirit is poured out. “
    The change in the locust identity was made in 2019.  The “mighty outpouring” of holy spirit has now become evident as beginning in 1983 onward. 
    This was the teaching of the locust in 1989:
    Joel’s prophecy gives us even more food for thought. Why, “the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah” is imminent! Mankind must be warned. Like the locusts in Joel’s prophecy, Jehovah’s Witnesses devastate Christendom by relentlessly exposing her spiritually barren state. This arouses the fury and opposition of her leaders, but any wall-like obstacles they try to set in the path of the symbolic locusts prove ineffective. Jehovah has poured out his spirit upon his people, equipping them to announce his judgments. Therefore, in the short time remaining before God’s fear-inspiring day, let us have a full share in helping others to ‘call on the name of Jehovah so as to get away safe.’
    w89 3/15 pp. 30-31  
    The same year - 1989 “They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. these men, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth. History has proved that they can be trusted to follow the direction of the holy spirit and that they do not rely on human wisdom in teaching the flock of God the ways of genuine peace. (The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)
    Well, no.  They can’t be trusted whatsoever, because THEY taught that JW “locusts” were devastating Christendom in 1989, six years after Splane says the Holy Spirit was beginning to be “poured out” onto the organization. 
    They rely totally on human wisdom.  There is a Spirit of Truth and a spirit of falsehood. (1 John 4:6) David Splane harbors the spirit of falsehood.  Luke 6:45
     
  25. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in "MAJOR BREAKING NEWS - Fundamental Watchtower Doctrines Out"   
    You are so polished at blame-shifting, not even addressing the topic.  It's okay that you are lied to, by men who are getting rich through their tried and true scheming methods that fleece the flock. I've known many a JW who became involved in "get rich quick" schemes, struggling to make ends meet and promised lucrative returns; but instead,  being taken by their own spiritual brothers.  I suppose they will pay also, just as you say Winston will?
    But, lets sweep all of WT's lies under the carpet with their pedophile issues, their failed doctrines taught for years; and  new doctrine that JWs swallow down with no problem, because they are so use to being lied to.  Let's focus on Winston instead.   
      
     
     
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