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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Kosonen in Apostle Paul never forgot to mention Jesus   
    Hi 4Jah2me, I like that you are seriously interested about the truth in connection with Jehovah God. You have apparently a thirst for righteousness and for spiritual things. That is a good foundation. Jesus said reassuringly:
    Matthew 5:3 Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. ..... “6  “Happy are those hungering and thirsting for righteousness, since they will be filled.
    I have heard that some Jehovah's witnesses say that the Christian Greek scriptures were written for the anointed. But there is a big but. Jesus wanted that his unadulterated good news contained in the Christian Greek scriptures would be preached until he comes back. Matthew 28:19  "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
    So, Jesus was inviting people to God's kingdom in the first century, and he sent his disciples to do the same until the end. Because that is included in "teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."
    So nobody should feel restricted to take to the heart what the Christian Greek scriptures contain. But as you have stated there is a huge lack of faith. But you don't have to be one of them. The lack of faith has hindered the full number of 144000 approved anointed to take place So the good news Jesus preached are still as timely as they were about 2000 years ago.
    Think about the following words of Jesus, are not they as valid now as when Jesus spoke them?
    John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him (Jesus) might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17  For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him (Jesus). 18 Whoever exercises faith in him (Jesus) is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God…...35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36  The one who exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
    John 6:28  So they said to him: “What must we do to carry out the works of God?” 29  In answer Jesus said to them: “This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in the one whom he sent.”.....40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”
    John 12:44 However, Jesus called out and said: “Whoever puts faith in me puts faith not only in me but also in him who sent me; 45  and whoever sees me sees also the One who sent me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness. 47  But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 Whoever disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him on the last day.
    I can just advise you to believe the Christian Greek scriptures and learn to live by the advice in them. I can only advice you to day by day to make progress in applying more and more of what is written there. 
    In the end everyone has to do that to get everlasting life, be it here on earth or in heaven.
    I wish you will succeed with this.
    Your brother
  2. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia—Are Not the Anti-Cultists Responsible?   
    Isabella reports—this is the second occasion of it—Jehovah’s Witnesses being arrested and detained in Russia—and subjected to torture.
    With an active and prolific hate campaign being waged against Jehovah’s Witnesses online, it is reasonable to think that it indirectly instigates persecution of them in Russia—even escalating to arrests in which torture is applied, as in this case. It is reasonable to think that it indirectly instigates the torching of two Kingdom Halls in the United States during 2019, both of which burned to the ground.
    Many groups are harassed in Russia, but it is Jehovah’s Witnesses who are head-and-shoulders the primary target. Why? It boils down to Jesus’ words: “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world...for this reason the world hates you.” (John 15:19) It is no more complicated than that. Hatred against Witnesses may be cloaked as reports from a “whistleblower” or complaints of those who would advocate freedom from “mind control,” but at root the motivation is simply disturbance that ones should choose to be “no part of the world.” No villain on TV ever says, “I am the villain.” Instead, he paints himself the wronged one with a righteous score to settle—and the program director strives so that we all see it that way. We must not be obtuse.
    From TrueTom vs the Apostates!—“The book Secular Faith - How Culture Has Trumped Religion in American Politics attempts to reassure its secular audience through examining the changing moral stands of churches on five key issues. The book points out that today’s church members have more in common with atheists than they do with members of their own denominations from decades past. Essentially, the reassurance to those who would mold societal views is: ‘Don’t worry about it. They will come around. They always do. It may take a bit longer, but it is inevitable.’ Jehovah’s Witnesses have thwarted this model by not coming around.”
    What is Secular Faith is saying is that churches have ceased being “no part of the world”—and having done such, are not hated, since “the world is fond of what is its own.” Jehovah’s Witnesses, and almost they alone, are yet remaining “no part of the world”—and that is why they are hated. That is why they have “apostates” who are off the charts in expressing vitriol. “Apostates” (within the Christian context) can be expected to proliferate in direct proportion to how the main body stays separate from the world. As such, Jehovah’s Witnesses should almost be proud of theirs, for in them they are validated. A religion that has made its peace on the “five key issues” of Secular Faith—what’s to apostatize from?
    Anti-Witnesses scream “Cult!” like patrons scream ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater. Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? To the extent they are, it is because the Bible is a cult manual. The behavioral, informational, thought, and emotional “control” that anti-Witness activists complain about are no more than people living by the Bible, living peaceably in this world while they look to the righteous new one to come, the one the Bible describes as “the real life.” (1 Timothy 6:19)
    I am not even sure that Witnesses should run from the word. It may be well to point to its origin. It is the same origin as ‘cultivate’—which denotes ‘caring for something’—and in a religious sense it refers to ‘caring for the matters of the gods.’ Okay. I’ll take it. Jehovah’s Witnesses ‘care for the matters’ of God. They trigger opposition from ones who don’t want them to do that. They trigger opposition from those who have crossed over to embrace various aspects of the world—the world that Jesus says not to be part of.
    This is clear in the testimony of one witness testifying for the prosecution in the Russian trial that would ban the JW organization. She complained of “complete and total control of life by the Administrative Center.” Asked to give an example of this, she reported her expulsion from the congregations after she “began her close, but not officially registered, relations with a man.” She wants to violate, within the congregation, the Bible sanction of ‘sex only within marriage.’ The Witness organization does not allow it—and she spins it as “complete and total control of life,” hoping to get the Russian Justices riled up.
    Look, it is fine to adopt the standards of the world so long as one goes there to do it—don’t bring it into the congregation. She signed on for such Bible-based standards, now she wants to change them—and when thwarted in that attempt, she seeks to get the organization that got in her way banned at the Russian Supreme Court! It is no more than revenge. It is no more than insisting the standards of the greater world be accommodated in the Christian congregation.
    Disfellowshipping itself is a last-ditch attempt at discipline, when all else has failed, to ensure that a member not bring standards of the world, no matter how commonly accepted, into the congregation. Is it harsh? It certainly can be spun that way, but as ought to be clear by considering Secular Faith, no denomination can obey Jesus’ direction to remain “no part of the world” without it.
    Among the reasons Christians were viciously persecuted in the first century was that their rituals were said to include cannibalism—historians report such. Obviously they did not, but from where might the charge originate? Might one look to the following passage in the sixth chapter of John, which begins by quoting Jesus?
    “I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.
    Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”
    When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?”...Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”  (6:48-69)
    What of the ones who did not “come to know” that Jesus was the Holy One of God? What of the ones who “went to the things behind and would no longer walk with him”? Did they thereafter leave their former co-disciples to worship in peace? Or did some of them draw from these words proof that Jesus would recommend cannibalism to his followers? Historians advance the notion seriously. And if some advanced the notion, might there not have arisen ones in the congregation who pinned the blame on Jesus himself, for uttering the words that got the persecution rolling; ‘what a blunder!’—I can imagine some saying (though not in his presence).
    It makes me think of the uproar over CSA within Jehovah’s Witnesses today. They are comparatively successful at preventing it—nobody, but nobody, has gathered every single member on earth (at the 2017 Regional Conventions) to consider detailed scenarios in which child sexual abuse might take place so that parents, obviously the first line of defense, can remain vigilant. But the world has little success at preventing CSA, so it focuses on punishing it after the fact. Constantly we read of individuals arrested over CSA allegations. The one detail that never accompanies such reports is that of the individual’s religious affiliation or lack thereof. Yet with Jehovah’s Witnesses, that detail is never lacking. Why? 
    Plainly, it is that the Witness organization attempted to do something about child sexual abuse—they did not just close their eyes as is typical of groups today, be they religious or not—and now liars are trying to spin it as though they love the stuff. Jehovah’s Witnesses are well-known as a religion that “polices its own.” It is an attribute that used to be viewed favorably, but now in the eyes of critics, it is spun as intolerable “control.” Those taking the lead in the Witness organization thereby came to know of individuals accused of CSA, and their “crime,” if it be one, is in leaving it up to affected ones themselves to report rather than “going beyond the law” to do it themselves. Time will tell how vile that sin is found to be, but it plainly falls far short of actually committing the CSA themselves, which is the pattern elsewhere. 
    As with Jesus and his remarks that can, in the scheming of dishonest ones, be spun into encouragement of cannibalism, so the JW policy on CSA is spun by similarly dishonest ones to indicate that the organization is determines to nurture and protect it, whereas nothing could be further from the truth. Three times before the Australian Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson of the Witnesses’s Governing Body pleaded for universal, mandatory reporting laws, with no exceptions—if that could only be done, it would make the job of the Witness organization in policing its own without raising the ire of those outside the congregation “so much easier.”
    Continuing his cross-examination, Justice Angus Stewart said: “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities...” I almost wish that Brother Jackson would have interjected at this point, “I wish you would not leave it aside, for it would solve the problem.” The greater world cannot make a dent in preventing childhood sexual abuse, and so it puts the onus on those who are trying to do something about it. Alas, our best lines invariably occur to us too late—had Brother Jackson picked up my line, it probably just would have got their backs up—and then (gulp) he would have looked at me with displeasure.
  3. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in In Chita, Vadim Kutsenko Reports That During Interrogation He Was Beaten Using Electric Shock to His Stomach and Leg   
    The online hate campaign against JWs is indirectly—in some cases even directly—responsible for their persecution, even with torture, as in the above story.
    I have submitted a separate post on it:
     
  4. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in In Chita, Vadim Kutsenko Reports That During Interrogation He Was Beaten Using Electric Shock to His Stomach and Leg   
    Yes, it is understandable if person have determination not to "betray" his fellow, religious camarade.
    But it is not acceptable for lawyer of same organization to refuse to tell who are members that were involved in CSA.
  5. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Arauna in In Chita, Vadim Kutsenko Reports That During Interrogation He Was Beaten Using Electric Shock to His Stomach and Leg   
    Yes there is a crazy imbalance of law and treatment of those breaking the law
    Whilst I think it is horrendous that any person should be tortured for any reason, i have more sympathy / empathy with victims of CSA than i do for those who suffer for the sake of an Organisation. 
    However I presume in Russia etc it is actual religious persecution, whereas in the other instances it is not.  But many religions in may places have suffered persecution so the activities in Russia etc does not prove the JW Org is 'serving God properly'. 
     
  6. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in In Chita, Vadim Kutsenko Reports That During Interrogation He Was Beaten Using Electric Shock to His Stomach and Leg   
    While some suffer because they do not want to answer questions about the activities of the organization they belong to, during that time others, in suits and ties, tell the court that they are a clergyman and do not want to divulge secrets aka confidential information. 
  7. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Shiwiii in GRAND JURY INVESTIGATORS ARE 'DEAD SERIOUS'   
    ok, I'm not @Witness, but I'll answer you from my perspective. 
    NO, not an organization like we know it today. Not a man made organization, but rather a group of like minded people who fear God and follow what He instructs, not just based on the parts of the Bible they want, but all of it.
    One doesn't need to be formed, its already in place. It isn't labeled by anyone but Him. He knows who is chosen and who still need to come in.
    yup
    not like the wt teaches. Those who have died before us are with Him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The earthly part is the part where in Revelation (ch 21) it talks about the throne of God coming down out of heaven and His dwelling will be with men here on Earth. Remember the part about the new Jerusalem coming down? 
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. ...
     
    yup, see above
    by fellowship and observation. 
    no, God will................... through them. You will know if God is behind it, because it will not waver nor will you have doubts about their actions or interpretations. 
     
    Yes. 
    Yes, we will be judged as individuals and it is only by the faith in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice for each and every one of us, will we be allowed into the Kingdom. 
    United, yes but not in a man defined structure of an organization. We will serve God as individuals within the group. 
     
    I can see what you are saying, but that isn't what the Bible tells us as to why. Doesn't the Bible tell us that the Gospel needs to be spread and then....
    Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
     
    There isn't a religion nor a "true" religion, it's a way of life.......God's way of life. 
     
     
     
    These are all just my point of view based on what I know. If its wrong, well thank goodness that I try and keep my faith in Jesus and what He has done for me. He is the only way to the New Jerusalem. 
     
     
  8. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in GRAND JURY INVESTIGATORS ARE 'DEAD SERIOUS'   
    Grand jury investigators are ‘dead serious’ about revealing sexual abuse cover-ups among Jehovah’s Witnesses
    by David Gambacorta, Updated: February 14, 2020- 5:00 AM           TIM TAI / FILE PHOTOGRAPH Brian Chase listened carefully from his Tucson, Ariz., home last July as an investigator from the Pennsylvania Attorney General’s Office introduced himself over the phone.
    After some idle chitchat, the investigator asked: Was Chase familiar with the office’s 2018 grand jury report, which showed that priests had sexually abused thousands of children at six Roman Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania?
    “Just what was in the papers,” Chase responded, “and what I saw on Facebook.”
    The investigator explained that the AG’s office was now working on a similar state inquiry, this time focused on the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But the agency was unsure of the scope of sexual abuse within the often-misunderstood religion, which was founded in Pittsburgh in the 1870s.
    Chase, 52, had been raised a Jehovah’s Witness in Corry, a small town in Erie County. In the 1980s, when he was a teenager, Chase said he was drugged and raped by a man who belonged to his congregation. Decades would pass before Chase understood that their stories were common within Witness communities across the country, but rarely reported to police.
    “The scope,” Chase told the AG’s office official, “is pretty big.”
    The existence of a Pennsylvania grand jury investigation into the Witnesses’s handling of child sex abuse cases — the first of its kind in the country — was only disclosed a week ago, in a story by USA Today, which was met with a no comment from Attorney General Josh Shapiro.
    But The Inquirer this week interviewed five ex-Witnesses who have already testified for the grand jury, including Chase, and their recollections paint a portrait of an investigation focused on shattering the wall of silence that has long surrounded the religion’s reclusive leaders, and unearthing secretly-maintained records about suspected pedophiles.
    Investigators have traveled to several states as part of the grand jury probe, and recorded testimony from former elders — the Witnesses’s equivalent of parish priests — as well as abuse survivors.
    “I can tell you firsthand, I’ve been up to the grand jury a couple of times now, and I’m testifying next week,” said Jeffrey Fritz, a Philadelphia attorney who represents Chase and his wife, as well as several other ex-Witnesses.
    “They are dead serious about going after [the Witnesses’ leaders] in any way they can, similar to the Catholic Church.”
    TIM TAI / FILE PHOTOGRAPH Jeffrey Fritz, an attorney with the Center City-based law firm Soloff & Zervanos, represents multiple ex-Jehovah's Witnesses who have testified in front of a Pennsylvania grand jury within the last year. Such a declaration would have seemed unthinkable for much of the past two decades, which saw a muted law enforcement response to ex-Witnesses who described in the pages of court documents horrific sexual assaults they suffered as minors, and the religion’s ongoing efforts to hide their accounts from the public.
    Sarah Brooks is another of Fritz’s clients; when she alerted her parents in the early 2000s to the fact that she was being abused as a teenager by a family friend and a relative, she was publicly shamed by an elder at her York County kingdom hall, and then shunned by other Witnesses. She twice reported the assaults to police, and her abusers were ultimately arrested in 2013, and pleaded guilty to corruption of a minor.
    Brooks, now 32, testified before the grand jury in Harrisburg last year.
    Investigators asked her to explain the Witnesses’s inner hierarchy, the system of elders and overseers who ultimately take direction from members of a small governing body whose orders must be closely followed by the religion’s 8 million followers, which number more than 7,000 in Philadelphia.
    At least three grand jury witnesses said investigators want to question governing body members, who work out of the organization’s sprawling headquarters in Tuxedo Park, N.Y., where they relocated several years ago, after selling their former Brooklyn headquarters for more than $1 billion to a real estate company run at the time by Jared Kushner, President President Trump’s son-in-law.
    “I am completely ecstatic," Brooks said. "It’s all I can do to not skip everywhere. I just feel like after all of the numerous people I’ve gone to, I finally have gotten to a point in my life where someone is listening.”
          JESSICA GRIFFIN / FILE PHOTOGRAPH Sarah Brooks testified before the grand jury about the sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager in Pennsylvania at the hands of a family friend and a relative. She first shared her story with The Inquirer in 2018. Martin Haugh, a former Witness elder whose 4-year-old daughter was molested inside a Red Lion, York County, kingdom hall in 2005, was so relieved to have testified before the grand jury that he recently tweeted a photo of the subpoena he received beforehand.
    “They are so close to you, the jurors,” he said. “When I was talking to the investigator about what happened to my daughter, one [juror] dropped his pencil. I heard a couple of gasps.”
    Haugh’s daughter had been abused by an adopted relative, John Logan Haugh, who was finally arrested in 2018, after another elder read an Inquirer investigation that detailed the case, and then shared the man’s whereabouts with police.
    Martin Haugh, 42, said investigators were particularly interested in discussing how elders compile child abuse records, and the direction they receive from the religion’s lawyers.
    “We need the FBI to break down their doors,” he said.
    Mark O’Donnell, a former Witness who has twice testified in front of the grand jury, told The Inquirer he spoke last year to an elder who had been alerted to an instance of three children who were being sexually abused by their father.
    The elder told O’Donnell, 52, he had contacted the Witnesses’s legal department, which advised that he shouldn’t share the information with police. The same department later instructed the man to destroy handwritten notes he had taken about the conversation.
      “He became so distraught that he resigned,” said O’Donnell, who has spent years collecting and publishing documents about abuse cases that the Witnesses never reported to police.
    Pennsylvania investigators traveled to meet that former elder in Missouri, and later flew him to Harrisburg to testify.
    O’Donnell’s second appearance in front of the grand jury centered on Witness documents, some of which date back to the 1980s, that have been leaked by whistleblowers, and show how Witness leaders instructed their underlings to stymie law enforcement inquiries and withhold information about suspected pedophiles from unsuspecting congregations.
    The religion has faced increased scrutiny in recent years, from a 2018 episode of an A & E series, “Cults and Extreme Belief," to a story in The Atlantic last year that focused on O’Donnell’s efforts, and a recent Oxygen documentary, “The Witnesses,” which highlights ongoing reporting from Trey Bundy, a reporter at Reveal, from The Center for Investigative Reporting.
    For years, many ex-Witnesses had little choice but to grapple with their trauma silently. Survivors eventually began forming communities on social media — Reddit, YouTube, Facebook — and hoped that the religion’s leaders would be held accountable, either in a news story or a courtroom, for enabling abusers.
    Meanwhile, in Arizona, Brian Chase can still trace the fallout from the rape he survived. He was reprimanded by Witness elders who learned that he had been abused, and then kicked out of his house by his parents, who mistakenly believed he was abusing drugs. He was shunned by those closest to him, and had to muddle through a period of homelessness and years of heartache and confusion.
    He now works with nonprofits that advocate for legislation to benefit and protect abuse victims, a tangible way of healing and helping others who have had to dig out of their own personal hells.
    Traveling 2,000 miles back to Pennsylvania, to testify for the grand jury, offered another chance to make a difference.
      “I felt relief, and that I was doing a good thing,” he said. “I want to do whatever I can to prevent this from happening to other people."
     
    https://www.inquirer.com/news/jehovahs-witnesses-sex-abuse-cover-up-pennsylvania-grand-jury-investigation-20200214.html?fbclid=IwAR105_Hq8SAFFbKWBjx21fAJ06YTENpMTtKS24teDsjxxMSt1so1HSb7Btc
     
           
  9. Upvote
  10. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Hey Robert ....   
    or why CC would downvote this. Is he running himself for office and I have overlooked him?
    I mean, I can imagine 4Jah saying, “oh dear, it looks like TTH knows something besides jw.org bible,” but why CC would have anything to say......
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges   
    This was already answered by @JW Insider. I need to say how you have strange way of perception and conclusion about this issue. You try to defend WT Society and GB who making clear and loud statements about own errors and wrong religious teachings.
    ?? Fantastic!  Testing people who have independent view of Scripture. If you already know that individual has "independent view" (you obviously think how bad must be to have Independence), why waste time with testing person? You already know difference between "good and bad" view. :))
  12. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges   
    @JW Insider  Thank you for that in depth truthful comment 
  13. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in We are not only spokesperson for God - Geoffrey Jackson   
    Mark 6 v 39 through 41
    But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me. 40  For whoever is not against us is for us. 41  And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.
    Luke 9 v 49 & 50 
    In response John said: “Instructor, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he is not following with us.”*u 50  But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.”
    The GB and it's Org try to say that anyone not a baptised JW will not survive Armageddon. I think the scriptures above (from their own Bible) say differently. Although they do try to prevent people by saying people are apostate etc. 
    What GB member GJ said is a complete contradiction to what else the GB say.
    They say that THEY (those 8 men) are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say that God and Jesus Christ trusts THEM. 
    But (as tom will keep reminding everyone) I still believe that a True Anointed are 'out there somewhere' and they will do God's will through Christ in the near future. 
  14. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Sweden and Norway Recognize Jehovah’s Witnesses as a Religion That Contributes to Society   
    https://spesial.fvn.no/i/xRWkJp/index_desktop.html
    http://www.silentlambs.org/SwedenResponse.htm
    Um, Sweden and Norway, I wonder who paid the Ministry of Culture to 'conclude' such things ? 
    Have a scroll down on those links for the truth about JW Org Sweden and Norway.  
  15. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    Thanks - no prob.  Just stick to subject if you please. 
  16. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    Same old, same old......   ...... outright attack...... not about the current subject which is about open and closed club but again going back (repetitive behavior) to the same old subject already discussed elsewhere........not worthy of a new answer .......because you are not interested in civility or really listening to a plausible answer.
     
  17. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    TTH: Your humor has been legendary for some time now .....
    You have TRULY (Tom), become a legend in your own mind.
  18. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from JW Insider in I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges   
    @JW Insider  Thank you for that in depth truthful comment 
  19. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges   
    JWI wants nothing of the sort.
    But if you are going to do one of these things where you go on an attack with false "facts" again, then someone ought to point out at least a couple of them. First of all, you are conflating the Bible Students and the JW's if you think that the cross and crown was a view noticed "since 1950." The cross-and-crown pins were declared to be objectionable as early as 1928. The English Watchtower got rid of the symbol from its covers in 1931. The pin was objectionable because it was religious jewelry associated with Russell and the Bible Students, not because it showed a cross. The WT still taught that Jesus died on a cross up until about 1936.
    Remember that the English name for the "Bible Students" still associated with the WTS was changed to Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931. Some Branches with the delay due to language translation lagged behind with the new name "Jehovah's Witnesses" and their redesigned Watchtower covers. (The Branch in Spain still had the cross-and-crown on their tablecloth design until 1932, and their Spanish Watchtower redesigned the covers in 1932.) Recall that in Germany the usual name was still Bibelforscher (Bible Students) from 1933 and beyond, and was used so much in Germany that many people didn't recognize that the Bibleforscher were the same as the Jehovas Zeugen (Jehovah's Witnesses) even after WWII. In fact, many of the Bibelforscher in concentration camps were not Jehovah's Witnesses but were Bible Students no longer associated with Rutherford and the Watchtower Society.
    So this cross-and-crown change had nothing to do with the 1950's, even though a bit of confusion might still have occurred in the mind of outsiders about the Bible Student name up until then, as this Watchtower experience shows:
    *** w92 6/1 p. 30 After Buchenwald I Found the Truth ***
    In 1954, I was visited by two of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I subscribed to the Awake! magazine. . . . During the discussions that followed, I remembered the Bibelforscher in Buchenwald who were so true to their faith. Only then did I realize that these Bibelforscher and Jehovah’s Witnesses were one and the same people. Thanks to a Bible study, my wife and I took our stand for Jehovah and were baptized in April 1955.
    You have made this statement several times, seemingly forgetting that it is the Governing Body who have declared that the Watchtower erred in interpretation of scripture. You are so blinded in your anger against anyone who might admit this simple truth, that you are inadvertently claiming that the GB are opposed to the truth and seeking their own independent understanding. I don't believe they are opposed to the truth, nor do I think they are seeking their own independent understanding.
    After 1929, Jehovah's Witnesses (since 1931), not just the Bible Students, believed that Romans 13:1 did not refer to the secular authorities:
    *** w50 11/15 p. 442 par. 12 Subjection to the Higher Powers ***
    On the clergy interpretation of Romans 13:1 has been based the Roman Catholic doctrine of the “divine right of kings”. Man-made governments since the flood of Noah’s day stem from Nimrod’s government at Babel or Babylon.
    Since 1962, Jehovah's Witnesses now understand Romans 13:1 to refer to the man-made governmental authorities. As you have tried before, you try to be slick with your opposition to the truth of such matters, and as usual, it has led you to attempt some wordplay again. You try to divert with your wordplay to make it ambiguous about "why true witnesses understand the authority is God and Christ as inscribed by scripture."
    Let's try to keep the facts straight:
    *** w96 5/1 pp. 13-14 pars. 12-14 God and Caesar ***
    As early as 1886, Charles Taze Russell wrote in the book The Plan of the Ages: “Neither Jesus nor the Apostles interfered with earthly rulers in any way. . . . to offer no resistance to any established law. (Rom. 13:1-7; Matt. 22:21) . . .  This book correctly identified “the higher powers,” or “the superior authorities,” mentioned by the apostle Paul, as human governmental authorities. (Romans 13:1, King James Version) . . . .
    In 1929, . . . it was felt that the higher powers must be Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. . . . Looking back, it must be said that this view of things, exalting as it did the supremacy of Jehovah and his Christ, helped God’s people to maintain an uncompromisingly neutral stand throughout this difficult period.
    In 1961  . . . the words used not only in Romans chapter 13 but also in such passages as Titus 3:1, 2 and 1 Peter 2:13, 17 made it evident that the term “superior authorities” referred, not to the Supreme Authority, Jehovah, and to his Son, Jesus, but to human governmental authorities. In late 1962, articles were published in The Watchtower that gave an accurate explanation of Romans chapter 13 . . . .
    It was correct in 1886, under Russell, until it was changed due to what Rutherford "felt" about it in 1929. Finally in 1962, it was changed back to Russell's correct view so that it was an "accurate explanation" again. So this had very little to do with "Bible Students" as you tried to imply. I was referring to "Jehovah's Witnesses from 1931 to 1962.
    Just a side note: For some reason the Watchtower added that "it must be said" that moving from a correct explanation to an inaccurate explanation of Romans 13:1 "helped." This makes one wonder why we no longer need the "help" of an incorrect explanation. Is it because we will no longer need to maintain an uncompromisingly neutral stand throughout any more difficult periods in the future? That can't be the real reason.
    The real reason is clear. It was a mistake. We can be humble about it, instead of trying to use weasel words and other ambiguous wordplay to try to avoid being humble. We can't keep trying to give the impression that we avoid honesty to avoid admitting a mistake. It makes us look haughty. It makes us look like we are opposers who oppose the truth.
    (Proverbs 12:17) . . .The one who testifies faithfully will tell the truth, But a false witness speaks deceit.
     
  20. Upvote
  21. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Sweden and Norway Recognize Jehovah’s Witnesses as a Religion That Contributes to Society   
    Did Ministry has program of monitoring various groups for purpose to give them state funding, or JWorg made, fill out the Application Form for this? 
  22. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    One characteristic of OCD:  "Compulsions are the individuals attempt to suppress such thoughts or impulses or to neutralize them with some other thought or action"
    …or personality.   For Tom, all of those people are a state of mind. 
  23. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    I have not yet met those guys.  I met only the ones with OCD and constant accusations..... 
  24. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Arauna in Jehovah's Witnesses Public club. Why ?   
    That is not the reason....they say it is preferable not to get involved in combat at all.
    Personally I think the GB are correct to advise this. When one gets into combat here, one group has an unequal advantage in the battle.  JWs have to stay decent while others can use dirty tactics. 
    So inevitably it looks bad when JWs fight the spiritual fight with similar weapons. After all we must rather work on our love skills than spiritual combat. ....... and you must admit the club has often turned out to be an open battlefield for those who hate JWs. 
     
  25. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges   
    I just want to put a few quote togethr here.
    Quote @TrueTomHarley " so that if you actually kept up and immersed yourself in scripture and what had been published for the general congregation " 
    Quite myself  "Well if a person immersed themselves in scripture they would soon find how the GB and the JW Org misuse scripture to suit their own agenda. "
    And myself again "but the problems come from those that are in complete control. The GB / Lawyers, then down from the hierarchy ranks to the Circuit Overseers and Elders.  None of them seem to question anything. They seem to act like zombies or robots. "
    Now JWI :-
    Quote @JW Insider " 4Jah2me has just reminded us of the mistake Rutherford made about "superior authorities" which was not corrected back to Russell's view until the 1960's. And it made me think that hundreds of brothers, like branch overseers, district overseers, circuit overseers, and elders (whether anointed or not) could easily have known that the teaching was wrong. It seems impossible that any Witness anywhere could read the Bible and not see that this was a mistake. But none of these persons, evidently, had the idea that it would be OK to mention the need to correct this doctrine "
    I'll leave it to you to have your own views here. I've proven my point. 
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