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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to The Librarian in What Makes Jehovah's Witnesses Unique?   
    Found on Facebook.
  2. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Jehovah’s Witness UK Headquarters Dissolves Kingdom Hall Charities, Seizes Full Control of Property and Finances   
    However, because elders would no longer serve as trustees, your local donations would be administered by KHT as part of its general funds. This could mean that the Trustees decide to use your donations to support the Kingdom work elsewhere in our branch territory and throughout the world to meet the needs of our brothers and sisters. 
  3. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    WT Society is a PRIVATE Corporation. The business of this company produces documentation of various content. They are about finances, investments, business cooperation and correspondence inside and outside the company, human resources, employee dispute resolution documents, information on the number and status of members .... and many more.
    Each state has legal provisions on how much and what kind of documents an institution should keep and how long it must be kept. It is quite certain that the WT Society owns and collects many other documents too, based on its choice and need.
    The governing structures of the company decide which documents and what information to make public. We have to expect how many things will stay "hidden" from members eyes or secular people sight, even from secular authorities insight in Court cases. 
    WT Society has NO INTEREST to inform own members about Court cases involving CSA and similar. They have NO INTEREST to display PDF or other format of Court documents for OPENLY reading inside JWorg and congregations. They have NO OBLIGATION  (EXCEPT MORAL AND ETHICAL OBLIGATION) to give members full information what is going on about some issue. 
    For example, issue of: "blue envelops" or "special blue envelops", "confidential file","sealed confidential envelopes", "Do Not Destroy", "notes in secure place", Confidential Records (sealed envelopes) ....  
    20. If the authorities request confidential congregation records or ask that elders give testimony regarding confidential congregation matters, the elders should promptly telephone the Legal Department - page 128
    1. It is recommended that elders check their jw.org e-mail inbox at least once each week. Confidential information should not be sent using outside e-mail providers. Use of jw.org e-mail is governed by the "Terms of Use" policy available on jw.org. - page 193
    21. Judicial Files and Other Confidential Reports: After a judicial committee, an appeal committee, a committee handling a request for disassociation, a reinstatement committee, or one or two elders handling a matter of wrongdoing have met with an individual, a brief summary of the proceedings is prepared and signed by the elders involved. The summary should be prepared regardless of the outcome of the meeting, for example, if the case was dismissed because of lack of evidence. (See 12:41-42.) The summary should include only pertinent facts and the final determination of the person's standing in the congregation; it should not contain personal opinions. Any personal notes should be destroyed. No judicial information should be posted on Congregation's Publisher Records (S-21). 

    22. If the matter involves a disfellowshipping, disassociation, or reinstatement, the elders handling the case should ensure that only the following documents are placed in a sealed envelope: 
    (1) Brief summary of the proceedings. 
    (2) Notification of Disfellowshipping or Disassociation (S-77) form. 
    (3) Congregation's Publisher Records if not reinstated. 
    (4) Any correspondence to or from the branch office regarding the wrongdoer. 
    (5) Any letters requesting reinstatement. 
    (6) Any letter of disassociation. 

    23. If the matter involves judicial reproof or another matter involving wrongdoing handled by one or two elders, the elders involved should ensure that the sealed envelope contains only the brief 
    CHAPTER 22 "SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD" 
    CORRESPONDENCE AND RECORDS 
    summary and any correspondence to or from the branch office regarding the wrongdoer. 
    24. The following information should be written on the front of the sealed envelope: 
    (1) Name of the individual. 
    (2) Action taken by the congregation, if any, and the date of such. 
    (3) Any judicial restrictions imposed and the date the restrictions are removed. 
    (4) Names of the elders who handled the matter. 
    (5) The words "Do Not Destroy" for matters involving accusations of child sexual abuse (established or not). 
    25. The sealed envelope should be placed in the congregation file by the secretary. If there is a need to open these files in the future, such as in connection with a plea for reinstatement, this should be done only by the elders who are assigned by the body to handle the matter. 
    26. The sealed envelopes containing records on individuals who have not been reinstated should be kept indefinitely. If the person has been reinstated a full five years or has died, usually the file should be destroyed unless the case involved an accusation of child sexual abuse or an adulterous marriage or the committee believes there is some other reason to retain it. The same retention policy applies to records involving judicial reproof and wrongdoing handled by one or two elders. If it is determined that a sealed envelope should be retained after an individual has died, the date of death should be written on the outside of the envelope. If one or more of the elders who handled a specific case are no longer available, the Congregation Service Committee will assign other elders to determine if the file should be retained. 
    "SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD" CHAPTER 22 
    CORRESPONDENCE AND RECORDS 
    27. If a person entered into an adulterous marriage, the file should be kept for five years after the judicial action and thereafter as long as the innocent former mate is alive, unmarried, and has not been guilty of sexual immorality (por-ne-ia).-See 12:10-12     - pages 200-202
     
  4. Confused
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Jehovah’s Witness UK Headquarters Dissolves Kingdom Hall Charities, Seizes Full Control of Property and Finances   
    Um, So if congregants here in the UK stop their contributions to the JW Org then the money taken will have to be returned. 
    Quote : "This is in harmony with the equalizing explained at 2 Corinthians 8:14 “… that by means of an equalizing, your surplus at the present time might offset their need, so that their surplus might also offset your deficiency, that there may be an equalizing”.” "
     
  5. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Tom Harley on James Thomas Rook   
    It must have been the old hen who made this into its own thread, and my second comment I no longer remember what that was about—some sort of inside joke that no longer is relevant, I suppose. But if you have actually been beat up and much as you say you have—I have never heard of such a thing—than I think you should focus on was even a little tiny bit of it your fault and work on that. It is much easier to work on yourself than on others. 
    Since you treasure the core that is JW, know it is found nowhere else, and are determined not to forsake it, you should work on making peace with the earthly organization. Otherwise you simply have the worst of two worlds. Why should that be? Change. If you want to present that you have been wronged, I will grant that. Still, you must move on. 
    For crying out loud, go to the AA meeting if you have to and memorize their prayer—it may not be from us but it is not bad at all: “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Focus on the first and third phrases, for you have NO problem with the second.
  6. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Tom Harley on James Thomas Rook   
    After a person has been beat up 15 times, (actual count) you might suspect them of being a sore head about such things, and somewhat reticent about being beat up some more.
  7. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    I don't defend anybody or any thing that does not, in my opinion, deserve defending.
    You do not understand ALL that I was saying.
    Some get it.
    Some don't.
     
  8. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. " I think your judgement is premature or possibly wrong for any number of legitimate reasons."
    Well then I think it matches his judgement of me  But I can also understand you defending a brother, even if he is wrong . And elders have been told they can tell lies as it's spiritual warfare
    Yes 3 smiley faces as I do think it's all so funny.  
    James, you seem to have shown proof by providing photos of the letter where it actually says it. Unless that letter is fake ? 
    But being as JWs can tell lies and seem to have a clear conscience about it, then there is no level playing field and no knowing truth from lies on here or anywhere else that JWs tend to comment. 
     
  9. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    Psalm 91 speaks of God as our refuge, our fortress.  The talk transfers this to the congregation; which is in reality, the organization - “a god of fortress”.  Dan 11:36-39 
    Psalm 91 loses all meaning through this talk.   If a person on the outside of the WT tells a JW that God is their fortress, their Rock, most definitely in the JW mind, he will not believe it.  How can that be without residing in the organization?  The Rock and the "mountainlike organization" are inseparable, which is idolatry.  Rev 13:4
     
     
  10. Haha
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    Have you lost your mind?
    If they have nothing to hide, why are they appealing to the United States Supreme Court to be able to keep those same records hidden? ( I have not followed the case, so I don't know how it turned out, if at all, yet).
  12. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    Not necessarily ... I used to be a pretty good detective, and I can see a few loose ends that need to be tied up and resolved before your statement would be correct.
    I think your judgement is premature or possibly wrong for any number of legitimate reasons.
    Some based in fact, some based in human perceptions.
    My considered opinion is that he is just wrong ... but I may not know everything there is to know.
    According to best available (AVAILABLE !!) evidence, I am correct, or, with the full expectation that every word I speak will be (and should be) challenged emphatically ... I would have not made the statements.
    As Marvin Webster sez: "Y'all think about it!"
     
  13. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    The GB gives orders to hide it and it seems it is the Elders that still do not see it as a crime. 
    When Elders knew about a situation in 2016 but kept it hidden until 2019 then the Elders must have considered it was just a conflict within that time period.  
    But I'm learning more and more each day Tom.
    And each day more and more truth about JW Org is being made public.
    I see HQ are grabbing all the money and property from the UK Kingdom Halls now. 
  14. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    Where can you find security in this world?"
    That is almost funny in the current situation of Child Sexual Abuse earthwide in JW Org. 
    But it's not funny because of the seriousness of it. 
    Quote " But if you keep quiet, then all will be safe."    
    Quote "So next time a conflict arises between you and any of your brothers or sisters, WILL YOU SHOUT ?@
    Another topic is talking about manipulation. Well here is a great example of it.
    Telling congregants to keep quiet and put up with it all. Telling congregants that they will be safe if they keep quiet. 
    Have you not heard ? This child sexual abuse is still happening now in JW Org. 
    DON'T KEEP QUIET, TELL EVERY ONE ABOUT IT, THEN YOU MIGHT EVENTUALLY BE SAFE FROM THESE PAEDOPHILES .
     
     
  15. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    I've replaced excitement with peace, calmness and happiness . 
  16. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Witness in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    Where can you find security in this world?"
    That is almost funny in the current situation of Child Sexual Abuse earthwide in JW Org. 
    But it's not funny because of the seriousness of it. 
    Quote " But if you keep quiet, then all will be safe."    
    Quote "So next time a conflict arises between you and any of your brothers or sisters, WILL YOU SHOUT ?@
    Another topic is talking about manipulation. Well here is a great example of it.
    Telling congregants to keep quiet and put up with it all. Telling congregants that they will be safe if they keep quiet. 
    Have you not heard ? This child sexual abuse is still happening now in JW Org. 
    DON'T KEEP QUIET, TELL EVERY ONE ABOUT IT, THEN YOU MIGHT EVENTUALLY BE SAFE FROM THESE PAEDOPHILES .
     
     
  17. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    So .... what do you actually do for excitement?
  18. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    That is not what the Watchtower Lawyer told the courts, or what is stated in the 1997 letter to all Elders, on page 3 ... of my last post that had a .jpg of the blue envelope.
  19. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    JTR: I was circumspect in my answer because, after 20 years, I didn’t want to be reckless. Recollections can fade after that much time. I wanted to be sure as I dusted off the cobwebs of my back memory. You were so firm in your counter-response that I thought maybe you were aware of something concrete. But now I learn that 
    Of course! All as reported by those who would be happy if JWs were to vanish off the planet. I go back to my own memory of things with more confidence.
    Of course they were ‘special’ but the question not addressed is ‘What was special about them?’ They were special because they were the reports of judicial committees reporting disfellowshipping for any reason. You think that’s not ‘special?’ Do you think that half the mail volume at Bethel is reports of people disfellowshipped?
    The idea behind sending such reports in a color coded envelope was so that Madge, the Bethel secretary, or whoever was filling in for her, would not be the one to open them. Blue envelopes were forward directly to Della White, Perry Bethel’s private secretary. As judicial reports, they would contain sensitive material that you didn’t want to broadcast to every Tom, Dick, or Madge. 
    The idea behind all reports was so when someone was disfellowshipped in one congregation, he just couldn’t slip back into another congregation with his past expunged and start anew.  Any religion ‘policing its own’ would of course have such an arrangement. Since few, if any, did, it will sound quite novel. What they did with the info I don’t know. Perhaps just kept them filed away by name after a quick review in case that name ever came up again from another congregation.
    As to writing detailed reports of anyone ever accused of CSA, as I said, I certainly would have remembered that because I would have been the one charged to write it. I suppose it is possible that such a request was received and I do not recall it because we didn’t have anyone to write about. Maybe I wasn’t even serving as an elder by 97, though my recollection was that it was about 99 or 00 that I discontinued serving. I do get a little hazy as to which years I served as secretary and which not, but it would have been most of them and certainly the ones at the tail end of my service. I suppose I could dig up some records and check, but
    Would it make a difference? Or if the answer came back not what you have already concluded, would you not just say that he is a ‘company man’ saying whatever he thinks will cover his own rear end and that of HQ? As it is, 4Jah demands what proof I have that what I answered to you is the truth. The moron! The ‘proof’ I offered was the greatest proof any individual can offer—the evidence of an eye-witness. 
    For many years I always had 3 or 4 of those blue envelopes in my desk, for whenever the need might arise. Use one, and they would send another in the next literature order, or maybe separately. Every other congregation secretary had a few of them as well. Yet I never sat in on or reported one matter of CSA. Therefore, they were for general ‘judicial’ use, and ‘special’ for that reason.
     
  20. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in If You’re Going to Bewail Manipulation, Bewail it Where it Counts   
    The original post about manipulating—who does it, to what degree, and whose is the most serious, brought out some predictable comments on the ‘never is heard a discouraging word’ website. ‘Unity of belief means brainwashing?’ one woman said. She thought not. She suggested that convincing followers to drink poisoned Kool Aid so they could all go to heaven was brainwashing. She suggested that flying your hijacked airplane into the Twin Towers so as to achieve the same goal was also brainwashing. She thought withdrawing from society to live in communes was brainwashing, as well. But she thought that if you live, school, and work in the general community, plus directly visit members of that community one-on-one to discuss your hope with them, plainly making connections in the Book that everyone has (or did) but almost nobody understands, that is not brainwashing. 
    How bad can the ‘manipulation’ be, someone else observed, if it results it results in people unselfish, with good family values, respectful of laws, honest, peaceable, and so forth? Why—if people were manipulated to be like that, you wouldn’t have to fear going out at night, you could lighten up on carrying keys for everything under the sun, and in general enjoy much less stress. The old trite saying even came out that ‘given the state of our brains, they can use a good washing.’ It may be trite, but that does not mean that it is untrue. Witnesses have been nothing but benefited by choosing adherence to God’s direction.
    Jehovah’s Witnesses make a mistake should they take to heart the cry of their opposers about ‘manipulation.’ Essentially, the cry is no more than the accusation that Witnesses march to the beat of a different drum, which none of them would deny. The manipulation that is detrimental is in just the opposition direction. “We know that we originate with God,” says John, “but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) Must “the whole world” not be ‘controlled’ or ‘manipulated’ for that to be the case? “The Devil is misleading the entire inhabited earth,” states Revelation 12:9.
    So when the cry is made that “Jehovah’s Witnesses are manipulated!” simply translate it as “Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Bible” and you will be fine—the two statements are equivalent. Witnesses are no more than the modern counterpart of Joshua, famous for his Declaration of Dependence: “Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...but as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.” (Joshua 24:15)
    Furthermore, stick it right back to those who favor independence from God to produce the fine world that their independence has brought them. Don’t settle for shallow answers such as pointing to clever gadgets like the iPad that I am putting to excellent use right now. Don’t settle for the admission that things may be getting worse right now, but the world is about to make a brilliant turnaround. Were that to happen, would it not be akin to a cry of ‘peace and security’ that I have read about somewhere? Learn to apprise the world’s offerings as did the Joker in the art gallery, flipping through paintings and rendering instant judgement: “crap, crap, crap, crap, crap.” In doing so, you will not be far from the Bible’s own conclusion—that there is a generation pure in its own eyes that has not been washed from its own filth. (Proverbs 30:12) 
    Don’t walk around all glum as though there is no joy to be had in the present life, for that is plainly not so and JWs do not carry on as though it were. But don’t be ashamed to proclaim the real life of 1 Timothy 6:19, and don’t let modern opponents manipulate you into thinking that this life is the real one. No. This one is the irretrievably broken one set to be replaced when God’s kingdom comes.
    Tell your critics to produce evidence of the child sexual abuse and human trafficking epidemic that they have stopped dead in its tracks. Ask them even to show how they have reached their laudable goal of no longer objectifying women—perhaps they will point to the Super Bowl halftime show (2020) as Exhibit A. How about the drug abuse problem that they have vanquished, or the homeless problem? “Why is it you Jehovah’s Witnesses always have to insist that things are getting worse?” one brother was asked by a detractor. “What does that view do for you?” He replied that it helped him to explain why the Doomsday Clock was set at 90 seconds to midnight (the latest revision) and not 10:30 AM.
  21. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from César Chávez in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    @Isabella Thank you for this information which has been discussed on this forum previously but it's nice to have a refresh. 
    There are many things that I don't quite understand about the GB / their lawyers and JW ORG. 
    (An interesting side note here is this :- Mr Tom Harley, the very sarcastic story teller, tells me that I know nothing. However I do wonder if his attitude was the same toward people when he was an Elder. )
    To continue :
    This American GB / JW Org Database was, so we believe, started in 1997. = 23 years ago.
    However the Australian Royal Commission, that found 1006 CSA accusations in JW Org Australia, went back 50 years. 
    Now JW Org is an American based religion. It started in the USA. So, if Australia Bethel has Paedophilia reports going back over 50 years. WHY does American Bethel only have a database going back just 23 years ?
    Next point : I do not have knowledge of how the ARC obtained the 50 plus years of information. Did the Aus Bethel offer the information or did the ARC demand the information ? Either way and even if, court proceeding occurred, the information was obtained by the ARC and was used to make a full investigation.
    Now here in the UK, I understand that when the Charity Commission asked for similar information from the UK Bethel, that the UK HQ refused to hand it over. I understand that a court case occurred and that the UK Bethel lost the case and had to hand over the information. That is how I understand it, and I've never dug deep into it. 
    But in both case, Australia and UK , the records of Child Sexual Abuse were handed over to those people in authority that were investigating the JW Org. 
    The scripture relating to being in submission to the Superior Authorities would fit well here.
    It should also be noted, or so my information has it, that the Charity Commission has not closed it's investigation but it is ongoing. Add to this that the IICSA investigation is also in progress here in the UK.
    So where does that leave the GB and it's Lawyers in America ?  
    We could ask many questions about God's role in all this, and the role of Christ Jesus. 
    In my opinion, God and Christ have washed their hands of it all. How can that which is Holy be involved with that which is not holy. We now know that the GB and their Lawyers are not inspired of God. We also know that the GB has given permission or instruction for the Elders to deliberately tell lies. They are calling it 'spiritual warfare'. Is that really God's viewpoint ? 
    It seems though that there is now a big divide in the different Bethels / JW HQs around the earth. Each country is no longer living 'as one organisation earthwide' all serving God. But each Bethel is 'doing it's own thing' when it come protecting itself against the courts and media coverage concerning Child Sexual Abuse within the CCJW. It seems as if the GB are losing control. 
    The news about the UK congregations money and their properties being taken over by an outside source seems to fit in well here.
     
  22. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    "Where can you find security in this world?"
    As I sit here typing my phone sits beside me, with the message "Tornado warning - TAKE COVER NOW !!"
    I am listening to WBT radio on the internet, and there is a tornado 7 miles from where I sit, one is over Charlotte, and one is about 20 miles North of Charlotte, and South of me in South Carolina there is tornadoe(s), massive lightning setting fires to buildings, and buildings have been destroyed, and people are trapped in their cars with trees and live electrical wires on top. People are advised not to get onto Interstate 85 as there is no place to hide if the Tornadoes pass over the freeways
    I didn't think about it too much, as there is a LOT of space, and I take up very little
    I consider the expectation of "security" an unreasonable fantasy, leading to unnecessary anxiety, fear, and poor mental health.
    "STUFF HAPPENS"
    ...get used to it
    PS: If there is a war going on, best not to all huddle in a room packed with people ... The bad guys might splash gasoline on the doors, and set the thing on fire.
    PPS: If you don't hear from me again, you will know what happened.
     
     
  23. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in The public talk title today was, "Where can you find security in this world?"   
    See @TrueTomHarley you did it!
     
     
  24. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Jehovah’s Witness UK Headquarters Dissolves Kingdom Hall Charities, Seizes Full Control of Property and Finances   
    I for one, have cut my contributions back to about 1/3 of what I normally intend to contribute.
    My wife and her mother left the Catholic Church forever because the priests could not stay zippered ... and I am sure many here on this forum, such as yourself, have already voted with their feet.
  25. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in What Does A Secret Database Kept By Jehovah’s Witnesses Reveal About Potential Sexual Abusers?   
    Well, in the face of such a confident challenge (given that you always speak that way).....I’m not iron-clad sure, big boy. But I think so. I was an elder for 20 years until about 2000. I served as secretary for most of those years. Blue envelopes were well-known to me and to the elder body. Yet I never sat in on or forwarded any judicial case involving CSA. So I start to revert back to what I said in the first place—for me to recall them so well, even submitting them I think, they would have had to have been for any form of wrongdoing. 
    Furthermore, had there been a specific request, in 1997 or any other time, to write detailed reports of anyone in the congregation who had.ever been accused of CSA, I certainly would have remembered it, because I would have been the one charged to do it. I would not have been like Pilosi ripping up the letter. I took letter-writing seriously, something that should hardly be a surprise to anyone.
    So that’s my evidence. I could be wrong—20 years time is enough to forget details—but I don’t think so. What is your evidence? Do you have any? Or are you just repeating what you have read on the internet?
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