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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in If Bethel Was in the East and Not the West   
    @TrueTomHarley You write a lot of words, as story tellers do, but you say nothing of importance.
    Quote "that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the highest rate of mental illness of all Christian religions."
    Well I've no idea but it's a shame to know when some commit suicide. Very sad indeed.
    Quote "There is a cost to being a disciple of Christ. " 
    Yes but it is different to the cost of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. 
    Quote " Don’t go groveling over the education that those early Christians didn’t have but which is now thought essential. "
    The early Christians were Jews that had a basic education about God and how to serve Him. Then Jesus built on that basic education and taught them what they needed to know for that time. 
    Life now is far different and we each live in different lands. Christians are Earthwide. 
    As for further education well it may be that some folks need it to earn a living. Life is not as simple as it was in the first century.
    This has all been said before but :-
    Basic education never taught Hebrew or Greek to working class English folks, nor probably American folks.
    Basic education never taught working class folks about how to make Blood Fractions or how to discuss medical procedures, or how to build cell salvage machine. 
    Basic education for working class folks never taught how to design and build massive structures such as a 1.6-million-square-foot headquarters in Warwick, New York.
    Basic education is just what it says on the tin. It is a foundation. A beginning of learning. 
    Quote "Christianity started off as a working class religion. It still is and the leaders of the faith among Jehovah’s Witnesses are still as they were then—“untaught and ordinary.” "
    Does that include the Lawyers in USA that represent the Watchtower / GB / JW Org ?
    In the first century they said simply 'We must obey God as ruler rather than men' 
    BUT Now they consult their lawyers / solicitors / accountants  et al, BUT you try to pretend it is still the same. 
     
  2. Upvote
  3. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    You helped me a lot to understand. Thanks :)))
    ... how many days or years dead fan spins, in your example?
  4. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Witness in 2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth   
    What else did God say?
    A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."  Luke 9:35
    33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
    34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
    35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 
    Each wrong, failed teaching by the WT's leaders, and there is an extensive list of them, is indication of spiritual famine. Jesus does not teach error and would not tolerate it among those who claim to be under his guidance. Amos 8:11; Matt 7:7-11 We are to discern this among the anointed ones.  Matt 7:15-20
    36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”  John 6:33-40
     
    Yes, Jesus does worship the Father.  Satan does not. Satan’s challenge made to Jesus had one underlying intention, to see him fall from God’s glory. 
    Any organized religion that boasts of its accomplishments; its buildings, its uninspired leaders who teach their sheep to be proud of what they have built in the world of Satan, does not worship the Father.
    5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”  Luke 4:5,6
     The “preaching work” in the last days before Christ returns, is directed by Christ and Holy Spirit – to God’s “Israel”, (Matt 10:23)  who admire and worship a “Beast” organization directed by a “false prophet”. Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:24; Rev 13:1,2,11,15  Christ has sent his servants who have been disfellowshipped/”killed” by your organization to “sound the trumpet” to his people, to turn to their Head, Jesus Christ – buying “gold”, TRUTH,  from him. Joel 2:1; Rev 3:18; Rev 18:4-8
    Or, they too, will fall from God’s glory.  James 1:12  Satan demands to “sift” each anointed one as “wheat” (Luke 22:31); in fact all in the WT face his powerful deception and must make a choice to either serve God through His Son, or serve men and their organization.  2 Thess 2:9-12  In the last days, he has devised a scheme that appears to be sanctioned by God and Christ, when in reality it diverts away from pure worship to be given to the true God and His Son.
     “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; (“congregation”) in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.”  John 16:2
    JWs do not “render sacred service to God alone”, since they render as captive slaves, service to the organization; material pursuits of men.  Matt 6:24; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10
    Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
    9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.  John 14:8-11
    WT 74/7/1 p. 407 “Are you willing to accept Jehovah’s way for salvation? In this twentieth century we have an example of humility, of lowliness of mind, that is found world wide. It is in the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses.”
    No it is not.
    “Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”  John 10:7-10
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well.”  John 14:6,7a
     
     
     
  5. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in Jehovah's Witnesses' "Hailstone Message"   
    You'll notice that I spoke, not of his weakness, but of the strength of Satan to cause persecutions that resulted in millions of deaths through the centuries. Satan and the spirit of the world that he embodies, has been at the heart of centuries of wars and persecutions. You will never see me complaining of his weakness.
    I won't get into any of the nit-picky anachronisms here, but yes, there was the pressure for young men to join the war. There is the same pressure today in many lands, but pressure to join in doing something wrong is not normally considered persecution. Some might feel pressure to avoid a lot of things the world would want us to join. But this is not the kind of "persecution" I was speaking about.
    Rutherford himself gave into the "pressure" to speak of the League of Nations as if it were some kind of awesome political expression on earth of what God's kingdom offers from the heavens. Does this mean that Rutherford could claim he was persecuted to do this, and that's what pressured him to say pretty much the same thing that the World Council of Churches was saying?
    The point I was trying to make is that, from 1914 to 1917, we are still talking about Russell's version of what preaching meant, not Rutherford's later versions. Rutherford, even up until 1919, had added only a couple of new elements to the Bible Students by that point in time: a much (better) stronger view against participation in war, stronger involvement in wordly politics, and a book called the "Finished Mystery" which was literally full of ludicrous "apostate" explanations of prophecy and false predictions which we would be embarrassed to read today. Probably the best pages in the whole book were the pages that Rutherford offered to rip out of every copy in 1918 so that the book could still be sold.
    It was already minimal from 1914 to 1934, but even if we maximized it, it still pales in comparison to the Biblical imagery of Revelation 12. Give it a quick look again as a reminder:
    (Revelation 12:3-17) Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child. . . .  And the woman fled into the wilderness, . . . And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. . . .  the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. . . . Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”  Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. . . . 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.
    Now, I'm sure that a lot of religious groups have seen this as being fulfilled upon themselves through the centuries. No harm done. That's just the way we egocentric humans have always been. And many of them had situations where they actually faced literal death. But in our case we say it was some legal maneuverings that resulted in the 9-month removal of 7 or 8 replaceable men of a specific organization that had already spent all its money on the Photo-Drama with the expectation that, after October 1914, no money would be needed for further preaching by any of them in 1915. The false expectations for 1914 had already resulted in the loss of many adherents. The autocratic nature of Rutherford, and the worldly, political infighting within the Society (over how it should be controlled in the wake of Russell's death) resulted in the loss of many more. The book, "Finished Mystery" caused a further controversy that resulted in the loss of even more Bible Students. The core adherents to the Watch Tower Society were fewer and fewer, even before the war had much impact. Rutherford began touting false expectations for 1918 and then 1925, and by the end of that decade, he had dropped pyramidology, the explanation for the End of the Gentile Times, and most of the the Russell/Barbour chronology.
    Rutherford's actions from 1914 to 1931 resulted in the loss of MOST of the Bible Students. (For mostly good reasons, however.) Satan's actions during the same period were nothing like what Revelation 12 would have led Bible Students to expect. And yet we know that Satan is not weak. Look at WWII, and the holocaust, for example. Where was this "war with the remaining ones of her offspring"? Where was this rage against the woman between 1914 and 1934? You have already guessed that maybe Satan diverted his attention to the overall long-term terrible effects of the war for a few years. That's possible. But reading Revelation 12 doesn't fit the idea of making excuses for Satan.
    Nothing to minimize about the war itself. It really was terrible and really was a change to an era. Of course, we already have minimized the "end of the gentile times." Rutherford completely changed its meaning by about 1931. It no longer meant the complete dissolving of all non-Jewish institutions over a course of a few months starting in October 1914, while natural, physical Jews in Jerusalem (Palestine) simultaneously proved themselves (starting in 1914) to be the only government that had Jehovah's backing and blessing.
    Again, we are forced to guess why he acted less like the Biblical Satan at the very time he was supposedly more angry, and had dragged a third of the stars of heaven down with him. Perhaps you are saying that Satan is less powerful after 1915 than he was in 1913? Or did this change in his power happen sometime closer to the time of Nero? (37 CE to 68 CE.)
    I would say that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing this. Sounds like you might agree.
    Just to be a little more careful here, when Jesus taught them to go 2 by 2, he clearly told them NOT to go "door after door."
    (Luke 10:1-7) . . .After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go.. . .  Do not keep transferring from house to house.
    The method was announcing themselves in public and then only going to persons' houses where they were invited.
    But our current method of going from house to house has worked well, too. I have nothing against it, and have used it to excellent advantage in starting studies and making disciples.
    Just one person's opinion here, but If we were to be given a hailstone message to warn others with before the actual end is upon as (as a surprise) then Jesus must have been lying when he said it would come upon ALL of us as a surprise. Jesus said the parousia would be like a flash of lightning that suddenly flashes from one end of the horizon over to the other end. Hardly even a split second should remain to start a hailstone message. Of course, there will always be people who think they know better than Jesus.
  6. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    One ordinary day in a Paradise.
    Eve said: "Adam, what shall we do today? If you have plan go fishing, don't stay whole day by the river". I have new recipe, and will prepare fine supper, but you have to come before day ends. Just watch at the sun and when sun come two ell measure above the top of the red tree, that is moment when you have quickly walk back for meal. 
  7. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    Just a passing thought ... could be the Day that was the "Rest Day", which if  creative day, and the rest day are actually 500,000,000 solar years (3.5 billion year old Earth, divided by 7 "days" - 500 million solar years), then A dam and Eve DID die DURING ( perhaps at the very beginning ??) that  500,000,000 year day..
    My understanding of the meaning of that scripture could be accurately paraphrased as: "..Sometime during the epoch that you eat of the tree, you will surely die.", a pronouncement Jehovah made before there were any human garden rats running sround. ... as they were born OUTSIDE the Garden of Eden.
    Only a guess ... please feel free to disprove the logic.
  8. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    Death was punishment for Adam sin. I don't recall what verse said Adam and Eve will live this or that number of years before they die. Verse that say: “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die"  not giving specific number of how long human will live. "Day". This is something that is under interpretations. No one know for sure of what day JHVH thought about. And what Moses thought when wrote word "day" or whatever that word had been. And what did translators understand later, word "day" is. WT Society interpreting day as 1000  years. But that is not only calculation that word "day" have. Genesis context also speaking about "day", seven of them. And no one of bible scholars today in WT Society don't say how such day is 1000 years long. Adam lived in Genesis context, not in some other Bible book context when one day is one year or other similar and not similar parable, prophetic day - year etc.
  9. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    purpose is:  pay money and you will be spared
    purpose is: to serve in the army
    purpose is: to serve in the army
    purpose is: the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah."
     
    What is context, why WT Society count members? Does secular authority need such informations? Does WT Society preparing for war? Does WT Society calculates how much money can each member bring into organization? Or how much calendars have to print? Or how much money they will send as a gift to each member?
     
  10. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    Who can tell it is wrong or right context ?
     
  11. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    @James Thomas Rook Jr. 
    NWT Genesis 6 v 3 
    Then Jehovah said: “My spirit will not tolerate man indefinitely,b because he is only flesh.* Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.”
    NWT  Psalm 90 v 10
    10  The span of our life is 70 years,Or 80 if one is especially strong.*But they are filled with trouble and sorrow;They quickly pass by, and away we fly. 
    @TrueTomHarley Mr Harley, one good point about JW Org. Easy access to the Bible for reference when conversing on here. Though for personal use i do cross ref' it with others of course.
    Psalm 90 v 10 
    New King James Version
    The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

    Berean Study Bible
    The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty if we are strong—yet their pride is but labor and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
  12. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Witness in 2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth   
    Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.
    This is true and any one with a sensible thinking mind and a spiritual thinking heart will know what lies and misuse of scripture the GB / JW Org and Bible Students / Watchtower society et al, have used to misguide people over the many years. 
    And anyone that investigates the JW Org to find out its 'rules' will see that the GB / JW Org live by and enforce rules made by men, not by God. 
    The scripture you quoted 
    John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 
    If only the GB and its Org would live by that scripture, then it would all be so different to what it is now.  Even the GB's lawyers tell lies in court. Elders tell lies to cover up sins of elders and others.  And it seems that the GB give permission for all this. They call it 'spiritual warfare'. 
    This bit is so funny too :-
    Quote : "The Catholic Church withheld the Bible and the precious truth Jesus leads people to "
    OK, JWs are allowed to have Bibles and are encouraged to read them, BUT, JWs are then told to believe only the things that the GB teach. So you can read you Bible but don't you dare to form your own conclusions about any scriptures. For if your idea conflicts with GB teachings you are in big trouble, well if you just happen to mention it to anyone else that is. 
    And this :- 
    Quote "The clergy elevate themselves over the common parishioners as the Jewish priesthood did, "
    Well well, the GB elevate themselves above the Anointed as well as the earthly class. 
    Please remember there was a time when ALL ANOINTED HERE ON EARTH WERE CLASSED AS THE 'FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS'. 
    BUT now the GB say ONLY THEY, THOSE 8 MEN, are the F&DS. Now that is definitely exalting themselves..  And we know what the scripture says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 
    Another quote :-
    Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
    Watchtower says " Only baptised Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved".  Giving salvation to an Organisation is false worship, idol worship in fact. 
     
     
  13. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in FAITH. IN WHOM OR WHAT and When ?   
    Quote @TrueTomHarley  " The purpose of organization is to magnify an activity. "
    That is so funny. The Bible Students and JW Org 'magnified their activity' by telling lies and by guessing at dates and getting it all wrong. Wow that was progress wasn't it. 
  14. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in FAITH. IN WHOM OR WHAT and When ?   
    @Arauna Quote "We have more than enough reason to thank them for keeping us moral and awake! "
    Those things you list that you have great knowledge of. You did not learn them from the GB or the JW Org.   So your personal 'keeping awake' is not because of your religion. 
    And your religion, the JW Org is not in good standing with people of good morals and you know why. 
    I admit to not having half the 'worldly' knowledge that you have, but I don't think i need all that knowledge, just to know that the world belongs to the devil and it is a wicked place. 
    Unfortunately the religion you are part of has misused it's own knowledge to make false statements in the past. Hence many people no longer trust your religion and its leaders. Add to that, the CSA not being dealt with in a loving and honest way. Add to that the misuse of disfellowshipping and shunning at a time when people need mercy and love.  As the world becomes more wicked so does JW Org. instead of shining like a 'lamp on a lamp stand', the JW Org is being seen as part of this world.  
    If, your religion JW Org, honestly believed that Armageddon is so close, then they would all be selling their homes, as they did in the 70's, and would be spending every hour in the ministry possible. None of you would be on here waffling away. You would all be in regular prayer and ministry. You would all be working together and sharing all possessions, just as they did in the first century. You would all see an urgency to preach and worship. 
    But instead, you all sit in your nice homes, just as i do, and we waffle away on here. Where is your urgency if you believe the Judgement is so close ?   
  15. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    @James Thomas Rook Jr. 
    NWT Genesis 6 v 3 
    Then Jehovah said: “My spirit will not tolerate man indefinitely,b because he is only flesh.* Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.”
    NWT  Psalm 90 v 10
    10  The span of our life is 70 years,Or 80 if one is especially strong.*But they are filled with trouble and sorrow;They quickly pass by, and away we fly. 
    @TrueTomHarley Mr Harley, one good point about JW Org. Easy access to the Bible for reference when conversing on here. Though for personal use i do cross ref' it with others of course.
    Psalm 90 v 10 
    New King James Version
    The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

    Berean Study Bible
    The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty if we are strong—yet their pride is but labor and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
  16. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    The Ten years was a misquote by @TrueTomHarley the story teller. He loves to tell stories and to mock others by misquoting them.
    I actually said originally that Judgement day would probably be 10 years away or more as it would take a long time for the JW Org to get back into good standing with God and therefore be useable, or for God to have the true Anointed remnant here on earth doing his will and gathering the earthly class. But i also said that God could do it in 10 days if He so wished. 
    Mr Harley just picked up on the 10 years because he is a storyteller and loves to get attention for himself. He offers nothing that is upbuilding but just loves to ridicule others. Over to you story teller. 
    Update  
    I've just noticed that the story teller or someone, has now added the idea that true Anointed will give the date of the Judgement.  No, the true Anointed know that no one knows the day or the hour. It is only false servants of God that put dates to it, and how silly they have shown themselves to be. 
  17. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    That’s setting a date. Close enough.
    After all, AlanF stated the year 2000 on the basis on some throwaway statement regarding ‘the end of the century’ and your chums were hitting the upvote button like rats in a Skinnner cage.
    If you didn’t say such ridiculous things, it wouldn’t happen.
  18. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in FAITH. IN WHOM OR WHAT and When ?   
    Yes. It is so ridiculous. The purpose of organization is to magnify an activity. The purpose of opposition to organization is to defeat that activity. There are some nuances, back eddies, and addendums—anything in which humans are involved will have blemishes—but in general the above statement says it all.
  19. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    "Judgement Day" can be caused by God, Global Thermonuclear War, or even a pesky virus that started out as the flu.
    As Marvin Webster sez: "Y'all think about it."
  20. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in If Bethel Was in the East and Not the West   
    Go back and read it again with more meditation.
  21. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    It is not God who gave all future generations a severely limited lifespan ... it was their parents.
    But didn't God reduce that life span to 120 years then 70 years ? 
    3 score year + ten. 
  22. Confused
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in If a son is not to pay for the sins of the father, why did we have to suffer for the original sin? Wouldn't that be making everyone pay for the sin of one man?   
    It is not God who gave all future generations a severely limited lifespan ... it was their parents.
    But didn't God reduce that life span to 120 years then 70 years ? 
    3 score year + ten. 
  23. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in If Bethel Was in the East and Not the West   
    If Bethel was in the east and not the west:
    Maybe theocratic warfare would not be so much like John-Wayne—hardening your forehead so the lout throwing a punch breaks his fist on it, a la Ezekiel:
    “Look! I have made your face exactly as hard as their faces and your forehead exactly as hard as their foreheads. Like a diamond, harder than flint, I have made your forehead” (Ezekiel 3:8-9)
    Why should everyone have hard heads? Maybe they should be more like those of eastern martial arts—duck the punch and the big slob’s own momentum sends him hurtling off-balance, and as he stumbles by you kick him in the rear.
    You’re better off yielding than resisting. “Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath,” says Paul at Romans 12:19.
    Take for example, the charge—detractors say it all the time—that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the highest rate of mental illness of all Christian religions. How in the world are you going to prove or disprove that—at a time when pharma has succeeded in putting 1 out of every 3 Americans on some form of anti-depressant? Drive by the psych ward of the hospital and look inside. Are they all our people in there? No. Usually, there is nobody at all, but sometimes there is one.
    Don’t be the western scrapper who says it couldn’t possibly be so. Be the eastern scrapper who embraces it. Say: “Well, maybe you have a point,” and then observe that, if true, Luke 5:31 would account for it: “In reply Jesus said to them: ‘Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but those who are ill do.’” Is he speaking of tuberculosis? Or is mental distress, such as might accompany anguish over the ills of this world and the blame assigned to God for it more to the point? The ones you should worry about are those who are not greatly troubled by the stressors of life today—those who sail blithely through the injustices and cruelties without a care in the world.
    What about when the scoundrels say: “If you look at the ‘turnover’ among JWs, you find it is one of the biggest turnovers of all religions.” Don’t say: “No way!” Say: “What do you expect? There is a cost to being a disciple of Christ. Why bother leaving a faith that asks very little of you? Besides, a high attrition rate is easily offset by the high participation rate of those who stick. After all, with many faiths, people might not actually leave, but how would you know if they did?”
    Use the blaggard’s weight against him—it is key to every Eastern martial art—it can work for us, too. Take the origins of Christianity. It is plainly a working-class religion, and as to it’s early leaders? “Uneducated and ordinary,” says Acts 4:13 (“untaught and ignorant”—KJV) This is embarrassing to Western religionists. If acknowledged at all (I had never heard it before becoming a Witness) it is treated as an obstacle overcome. “They may have started low, but look how they pulled themselves up!” is the attitude, thus taking for granted that more secular education is what everyone needs. 
    The clergy of many faiths bristle with degrees—considered essential as a qualification. The degrees require a broad command of the “humanities.” They often even require an examination of their own topic through the lens of critical thinking, ensuring that faith will lose out, since the two are opposed. A case in point is a series of talks I have been listening to from the Great Courses company entitled: “From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity.” The speaker is Bart Ehrman, Chair of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, he with a Masters of Divinity degree. You’d almost think that the Chair of a Religious Department would believe in God, but he does not appear to. If I took a science course taught by one who thought Newton and Einstein were well intentioned but misguided zealots, I would smell a rat.
    Questions for Study at the conclusion of one lecture includes: “Why do you suppose such people as Perpetua or Ignatius—who presumably had so much to offer people in this world and who could have no doubt led happy lives here—were so eager to sacrifice their bodies and leave this world?”
    Thus he indicates that he does not have a clue as to what he teaches. The entire motivation of a Christian appears to be a totally foreign concept to him, notwithstanding that he is recognized as the smartest person in the room.
    Another case in point, which I have not yet expanded upon, though I mean to, is the New York Times review of Amber Scorah’s book—a review written by a faculty member of Harvard Divinity School. It seems pretty clear that she is an atheist. Don’t you go to Harvard Divinity School because you want to learn about God?
    https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/08/a-review-of-a-review-of-the-scorah-book-leaving-the-witnesses.html
    A third case in point—and a minor one—is those few elective courses I took in religion from my own college days. The professor was a retired Baptist clergyman. I can still hear him chuckling about how at Divinity School, the Gospel of John was called the Gospel to the Idiots on account of it’s simple language. The early disciples might be “untaught and ignorant,” but these characters meant to run rings around them.
    Another project for one of his classes was to write a paper about “entering into God’s rest” and how there “remains a Sabbath for the people of God,” as written in Hebrews chapter 4. What was that passage supposed to mean? I ended up taking most of my paper from Watchtower publications. I didn’t want to. It was against the rules to rely on any one “sectarian” source. But I found that I couldn’t help it. None of the other suggested sources made any sense to me. They all struck me as pointless pontificating. 
    This would have been in my senior year, and during the summer recess before, I had been introduced to the Bible study of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had the sense of the puzzle picture coming together and was beginning to glimpse the mountain vista on the box cover. I had no patience for the logical machinations of those whose presentation made clear that their puzzle lay unassembled in the box on their closet shelf.
    No. Don’t go groveling over the education that those early Christians didn’t have but which is now thought essential. Tell them to show us the magnificent world that their brand of education has collectively produced before we start fawning over it. Christianity started off as a working class religion. It still is and the leaders of the faith among Jehovah’s Witnesses are still as they were then—“untaught and ordinary.” Don’t hide your head in shame over it. Embrace it. When the “educated” people come along and say: “Okay, here we are, we’ll take it from here,” tell them to take a hike.
    (to be continued)
  24. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Matthew9969 in 2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth   
    So Jesus is a JW also, so you expect he needs to go through  the watchtower for salvation, and worship the g.b.as he would worship Jehovah?
  25. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.   
    Maybe considerably less, I’ve been told.
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