Patiently waiting for Truth

We do have very good reasons, the math for 1914 wouldn't work out otherwise
Yes, I think we would laugh. After all, messing around with numbers to "fit something you want it to fit" sounds pretty cultish. When looking at this subject again, in light of Br. Splane's talk about types and antitypes, and how he said that (paraphrased) we have to make sure that when we are talking about types, that they are genuine types, because the word of God says they are puts a whole different slant on it. Then the idea is enforced even further when he says who is to decide if a person or event is a type, if the word of God doesn't say anything about it and he quotes Br. Shroeder: ( We need to exercise great care when applying accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures as prophetic patterns or types if these accounts are not applied in the Scriptures themselves).
Therefor reading the account in Daniel 4 without any preconceived ideas, I see these main lessons:
verse 17  "This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.”  Lesson: (quite self explanatory really) Jehovah can do what he wants because he is the ultimate sovereign.
verse 27  "Therefore, O king, may my counsel be acceptable to you. Turn away from your sins by doing what is right, and from your iniquity by showing mercy to the poor. It may be that your prosperity will be extended". Lesson: Listen to Jehovah and do right, otherwise Jehovah will discipline you.
verse 37  “Now I, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are just, and because he is able to humiliate those who are walking in pride. Lesson: similar to above, and also proof that Jehovah carries out his discipline. 
----------------
The reasoning put forward as to why this particular chapter of Daniel (4) has greater meaning (paraphrased from WT October 2014) is that the book of Daniel has a central theme, that of God's Kingdom, and keeps pointing forward to the establishment of that Kingdom under the rulership of his Son, Jesus. For example what it says in Daniel 2:44: "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.”
I can see that Daniel Ch 2 is talking about Neb's. dream of the statue, representing subsequent rulerships, and that during the feet period God's Kingdom will come. In my opinion this is one valid and definite description of when the Kingdom will come. Then Chapters 7 and 8 are full of cryptic beasts, Chapter 9 prophesy about the coming of the Messiah including his cutting off, chapter 11 more cryptic descriptions, this time involving the king of the north and south, and the last chapter (12) the time of the end with Michael standing up. I need an encoder! I must admit, because of my more practical disposition, when we studied the Daniel book, I did not pay enough attention. My son was quite small and I had my hands full, and I can't even remember if we studied it again after that?
For example what are these numbers about?: Daniel 12:11  “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" (It's ok, no need to answer, I can look it up myself).
 
,Sorry, I was being confusing. I didn't mean 607 was special. I meant what happened when counting 2520 years from that date, I meant that 1914 was a very significant year.
(have to go, will carry on later)

Well here in the UK the JW Org are selling houses for over one million pounds each in London, and I didn't even look at how much the commercial properties were. So they are into big business it seems, whilst Jesus said He was no part of this world.  I'd love to know exactly who lives in those one million pound houses before they are sold, and is it JW volunteers that refurbish the houses. 

I think you are wrong. The GB and or others at the top, make rules that are not from scripture. The Elders enforce those rules blindly. In Jesus time the religious leaders did the same thing. 'Putting heavy loads on the shoulders of others, which they would not even use a finger to help'.
And actually the baptism questions / at baptism, a person agrees to become 'One of Jehovah's Witnesses', so it is much like a contract. 
Also the Elders use the threat of disfellowshipping someone, which then means the person will be shunned by maybe 100 or more people / the whole congregation. And it could also mean the loss of business because JWs won't do business with D'fed ones. 
Whereas 'interested ones' that go to meetings and do ministry, are not ruled over by the Elders. True that elders could stop an unbaptised one from doing ministry. but that is all they can do.  An Elder does not have the authority to tell an unbaptised person not to talk to a D'fed person. 
I think that on some occasions the 'law of the land' shows more justice and mercy than the JW org. 
And the rules of the GB /JW Org go beyond the things written in the scriptures. The GB themselves know this and have had to tell their lawyers and elders to lie in courts because of it. 

My above comment was an illustration.  If you find it a joke you have not thought it through. It illustrates the need for "barriers" to drive on a road safely and also to drive through life. To not tread on each others toes we need barriers which are not crossed. When they are crossed society does not function properly.
There are people here who hate JWs..... so do not take them seriously.

If you drive a car on the road and you follow the road rules..... you do not encounter a problem and you do not feel as though you are under law....  BUT break the rules such as going over a solid white line ..... one stands a chance of killing your own family or another in an oncoming car..... or the police may catch you....   So you are only under law when you break the law. ..... When you keep/observe the law you are safe and free.....   So there is only police control when you break the law or the law of disaster steps in because of risk behaviour..... 
So the org has no control.... your own behaviour puts you at risk....... but irresponsible people with risk behaviour see it as encroachment on their freedom.

I think even when we are baptized, the watchtower elders or CO has no power over anyone, the power they think they have is because we give them that power, is not like we have signed a contract or anything. 

Anna says 10 years and she’s just being speculative, just putzing around, with the existing arrangements.
You say 10 years, I think in earnest, with a brand spanking new anointed from somewhere or other—everything new from the ground up.
You are both wrong. It is ten days. Be ready.

If you think they use it for their own purposes then why do you donate?  That is not logical.
It depends on what you define as own purposes, private purposes, public purposes, necessities, etc. 
I think you really should be more thankful to be associated with the organization and what it does for us.

My donations are always by check, and written thereon is "for local needs".
It's like paying taxes, some of which are used to make hydrogen bombs, and ICBMs.
Not my problem.
Jesus and the Apostles needed NONE of those things you mentioned, Arauna.
If you are NOT inspired of God, as the GB admits they are not ( February 2017 Watchtower), you do need all of those things you mentioned.
They are actually essential, as I would freely admit.
.... and HEY!, I am just guessing about all of this ... as is everyone else.
And Arauna .... did you get NOTHING out of the "Follow Jesus" Assemblies?
Jesus set the example .
We are either following that example, or .....
WE ARE NOT.
The fact of the matter is that the GB DOES use the billions for their own purposes.
but, I am, as you stated, "no one to criticize" ... as I do not follow Jesus' example either.
If I had that kind of money, I would buy a Chinook double rotor helicopter, instead of Rolex watches, and cartoons of Caleb and Sophia, etc.
uh ... for Witnessing on beautiful Pacific Islands, of course ....
 
 

Just one question for you:  when you go to meeting or field service you get to use many videos that were made to be easily accessible for all ages and peoples.  Do you have any clue what equipment costs?   Many poor congregations in Africa receive projectors from the organization because they cannot afford it.
They do still print bibles and watchtowers etc.
Do you think they must remain in the Jurassic age when it comes to using technology or will it be ok by you if they venture to use the newest tech to support the brothers?
You have a budget to fulfill your responsibilities at home.....dont you?  Why not broaden out and see that they also need money to provide services in almost 1000 languages?  
I think we need a little more gratitude and less criticism...  ALL you see is "billions" which you try to imply are used for their own purposes.... 
They are always in need of funds to make it stretch further..... because we do get all our spiritual needs fulfilled without cost.  You need not give any donation if you feel they waste it.  You can use all amenities without giving a dime! 
 

I strongly suspect that Jehovah's Holy Spirit is given in direct proportion to the amount of Spirit you actually need.... considering that Jesus Christ and the Apostles had NO Real Estate whatsoever, as part of their Organization, and only enough money for the days food, and to the best of my knowledge, just the clothes on their backs, they needed a lot ... and they received a lot of Holy Spirit.
The Governing Body has billions of dollars in Real Estate, all over the world, and controls billions of dollars worth of money, to spend as they alone see fit.
... and dat's de fact, Jack.
SOOooooo... they are on their own.
..... as are the great majority of us.
I have SEEN Jehovah's Spirit build up and sustain several of the Anointed ones, who had no strength of resources of their own, and I suspect when it is needed ... actually NEEDED .. the rest of us "ground pounders" get it as well.
That is just my guess of how it works ... no more.
...and I suspect it is INVERSELY proportional to how much you have naturally, WITHOUT Jehovah's intervention.
 
 
 
the formula for that is 1/x.
There is probably a button on your pocket calculator for that.

Answer:
Hatred borne of jealousy ...
.... because the people  covering the Earth, outside of Adam and Eves' family, were NOT directly created beings of Jehovah, and did NOT have an opportunity to live forever ...
...and they KNEW that to be the case.
That is why Cain was afraid that wherever he went in his enforced exile to wander the Earth, those evolved  humans would kill him.
I do not "have Polaroids", but that idea solves a LOT of problems, including millions of tons of hard fossil evidence, all over the Earth, that only the willfully stupid would say means nothing ... and it solves the problem of who Cain married.

I am not so sure that Colossians speaking about coincidence. 
I never thought this way, but questions comes after reading this Colossians verses. What sort of "created lordships or governments or authorities" already existed in the heavens and on earth, especially in time period before, in the moment and after Adam and Eve were created? Have some idea? 
New born human society was made of two. I see, in Genesis, how Adam had sort of "power" over animals. Eve had free will and autonomy, just like Adam. Only after Cain's crime we see how he had big fear over his life because there was possibility, that some people (who they are, where they lived, what structure they created??) will kill him because of what  he has done. 
I see here some issues. God didn't punished Cain (God is Lord, Government and Authority). Adam didn't punished Cain (Adam was his father, but he didn't show he had any power over his son). Some unknown people, living who knows where have some thoughts about killing Cain, because he murdered Abel. Why would they be interested in this Adam's family "business"? And why they were interested in "punishing" Cain? 
What sort of structure, legislative (lordships or governments or authorities) existed inside this outside group, tribe, society, that show us how they had something what Adam and Eve family, tribe hadn't ?

2011, after the Nation realized they could NOT keep their doctor, they could NOT keep their health plan, and the $2500 every person was going to save on their Health Care, was going to cost them about $10,000 more, and if they did not buy it, the IRS would add a whopping fine to their Income Tax return.
On a related note, in 1980, the Governing Body in considering the "signs in the heavens ..." actually considered declaring Sputnik to be the fulfillment of Bible Prophesy, Schroeder, Karl Klein and Grant Suiter proposed moving the beginning of the "generation" to the year 1957, to coincide with the 1957 Sputnik event,  and it almost became "new light", except a 66-2/3 majority vote was needed to adopt that policy, and one member of the Governing Body went to the restroom, and when he came back, he changed his vote, and it failed by one vote.
In retrospect, perhaps the Brother should have held his water.
 
 

It's a difficult doctrine, with an easy explanation.
The Earth is about 3.5 billion years old.
Each creative day is (3.5 billion divided by 7 = 500,000,000) about 500 million years..
Armageddon will occur at the "End of Days".
Therefore ... "Stay Alive, 'till 500,001,975".
See?
The math works out perfectly, AND it agrees with fossils !
TA DA!
Plus! --- the .ORG gets a LOT of "wiggle room".
As Marvin Webster sez: "Ya'll think about it."
 
 

I don’t think so. 
I’m playing a bit, I admit, but not to the point of being silly.
Any historian will say that early Christians lived in expectation of the immanent end of this system. The Great Reawakening, or whatever it is called, from which Russell eventually emerges, invariably features expectations of just when the Lord will return. Branches of Christianity that do not concern themselves with this go an entirely different direction. They focus their efforts on improving the present world through education and charity. They abandon their resolve to stay separate from it.
It may be part of the equation that the two—expectations of the short time till the end, and kingdom proclamation with the unique teachings that are JW alone—must always go together. Maybe it is the great Carrot and Stick game of God, knowing how we are. At any rate, I think it most unlikely they will ever tinker with the formula much.
Is the 33-doctrine tinkering with the formula? By moving the beginning back in time, I think it will be hard not to also move the day off into the vague future. It may be that some are gingerly poking at the foundation, as JWI seems to think, but I would not expect any wholesale change.

Now you're getting silly!

That highlights it all.
Funnily enough, before you posted this, I had already written a draft of my "1914 musings" last night and thought of this::
"1914 is such an attractive doctrine. The the numbers from Daniel 4 add up quite nicely, and then when applied to 607 BCE we arrive at a momentous and significant world event, which could be said to be the time when Jesus fought with Satan, (as per Revelation) throwing him out of heaven, to the the vicinity of the earth, causing him to be so mad that he arranges for an Archduke to be shot, setting in motion the beginning of a world wide war (pretty significant). Also he (Satan), has a short period of time before all his evil shenanigans are brought to an end by a warrior king, Jesus, and thereby a specific time period, with a beginning and end, is set in motion (the last days) and those days were to start and end within one generation.
(As we know, there are complications with 607, but if we were to apply Daniel's numbers to 20 years later, then nothing major or significant happened on the world scene in 1935..although if we were to apply it, then a generation would fit quite nicely in there, making those who were born in 1935, eighty five years old today. This could still buy us another 10 years, and it could still be said that it was one generation. (If we call the lifespan of man a generation). If I remember right though, wasn't it 1935 that SOMETHING significant did happen for the Witnesses? Wasn't it when the great crowd was identified?" )
Yes, a logical conclusion and we have seen this with our own (Russell, then Rutherford, then Franz, and now the current GB....always within in each respective groups lifetime" )
Of course we all know that if the 1914 doctrine was ever changed because of our "love for the the truth and not for the doctrine" (if indeed it turned out to be erroneous) it would be quite significant because it would automatically nullify 1919 when the FDS was supposedly appointed. It brings to mind something else that Br, Splane said in the video. He said something like would we allow an adjustment to previous understanding "touch our spiritual nerve". Good question, especially with regard to 1914.
I don't mean to be skeptical, but I wonder if an alternative to 1914 is already being carefully studied....just in case the end is not here yet in 50 years....
 
 
 
 
 

I don’t see any backing off of 1914 whatsoever. It was pedal to the metal at last nights meeting where the assigned reading was Revelation 10-12. Moreover, I thought of talks I had put together over the years, using some of the details in those verses. I thought of how I had made a big deal of Rutherford & crew unambiguously ‘advertise, advertise, advertising’ the King and his Kingdom at almost the exact same moment that the Federal Counsel of Churches was hailing the League of Nations as the political expression of the kingdom on earth today—each side publicly parting ways at the fork in the road.
I read that background WT of how 100 years ago it could not even have been conceived that humans might “ruin the earth,” yet how that manifestly is a great  threat today, as humans invent & implement new technologies without regard or ability to control the consequences. (I finally figured out why my wife had been able to get the Research Guide on her IPad but not me on mine—I had thought it was @James Thomas Rook Jr. messing with me from afar.)
And now you propose that it should all go? What would be the effect of this strange new teaching of yours that Jesus began to rule in 1933–period, end of story—and that WWI was just “boys will be boys?” How will it affect “last days,” ‘urgency of the end,’ ‘the end of all things has drawn close’ ‘ridiculers will come with their ridicule’ and so forth?
Do I understand this correctly? (Maybe I don’t) We have been living in the last days since 33? Constantine lived in the last days and should have been keeping on the watch? Napoleon lived in the last days? George Washington lived in the last days? Sleepy Rip Van Winkle lived in the last ‘Keep on the watch’ days? People couldn’t even read that there were last days that they were supposed to be keeping on the watch for until 3-400 years ago when the Bible began to appear in languages other than Latin!
I think the “33 doctrine” effectively waters down the urgency of keeping on the watch to the point where the practical response is—why do it at all?
I can envision several historic Watchtowers, to run in successive weeks:
1) We are out of harmony with the majority of ancient date scholars. Therefore, let us acknowledge that they must be right, and kick 1914 to the curb—Advertising, League, WWI, Atlanta—it all goes.
2) We are out of harmony with the majority of scientists. Therefore let us concede that Darwinian evolution is the bee’s knees and let us consign Adam and Eve to fairy tale.
3) Let us work on giving our children a “good education” so that they can get a “good job” and turn their talents to making a difference in the world—let us get in there and fix those problems! We can do it!
4) Let’s get Trump out of office and the sooner the better! He spreads meanness. Of course, we realize that some in the congregation will feel another way. They can buy another building and meet there.
5) Let’s focus more on love. Why should we care about what gender people are attracted to? The Bible was written a long time ago when people had different sociological needs and were less enlightened than now.
6) Let’s lighten up on the kingdom preaching work. Who knows how far off it is? I mean, if you have time on your hands and nothing else to do, that’s okay, but don’t let it get in the way of anything important. Let’s have our religion but keep it in its place. There are many roads and they all lead to heaven.
 
 
 

Do you mean go first to explain 1914 as a true possibility in a simpler way? Or do you mean go first to explain Daniel 4 in a simpler way (with or without 1914)?
The funny thing is that Brother Splane without realizing it, I think, already gave a very appropriate analogy for what's wrong with the 1914 doctrine when he decided to point out some particularly ridiculous "typologies" that did things like try to make something out of the number of fish caught by the disciples after Jesus was resurrected, namely, 153. Then he went on to show the ridiculousness of trying to read too much into the story of Jacob and Esau and the bowl of stew. Brother Splane said:
One scholar made much of Jacob’s purchase of Esau’s birthright with a bowl of red stew. Very significant that the stew was red. To him, the red stew pictured the red blood of Christ. The inheritance pictured the heavenly inheritance. It’s all… By that reasoning, Jacob pictures Jesus, Esau’s birthright pictures the heavenly inheritance, and the red stew pictures Jesus’ precious blood.
Now on the surface that might sound plausible to some, until you think about it. When you think about it you see three problems. First of all, Jehovah didn’t design the type. Jehovah did not tell Esau to sell his birthright. Selling his birthright was wrong, and Jehovah never tells us to do something that’s wrong. Second, who ate the stew? Esau did. So are we to conclude that, by giving up his inheritance, Esau put himself in line for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? That doesn’t make any sense. And most importantly, nowhere in Scripture do we read that the event was a type.
The temptation to go for chronological numerology over 153 fish should remind us of how we take 7 times and turn them into 7x360 to get the number of Jewish prophetic days using a 360 day year, and then turning each of those 2,520 days into solar years of 365.25 days apiece so that we can get 2,520 solar years, to reach from the fall of Jerusalem down to modern times. And then we must readjust the archaeological dates by about 20 years to make them reach 1914 instead of 1934. 
But the biggest problem is the same as the sentences about Esau above, which we can correlate with a similar problem with Nebuchadnezzar:
Second, who ate the stew? Esau did. So are we to conclude that, by giving up his inheritance, Esau put himself in line for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? That doesn’t make any sense. And most importantly, nowhere in Scripture do we read that the event was a type.
Now we can have the same situation regarding Nebuchadnezzar in Splane English
Second, who was forced to lose his kingdom and then became insane? Nebuchadnezzar did. So are we to conclude that, by giving up his kingdom and acting insane for a time, that Nebuchadnezzar put himself in line to represent the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ? That doesn't make any sense. And most importantly, nowhere in Scripture do we read that this event was a type.

@JW Insider and there's your 15 minutes of fame!

@Srecko Sostar  Here in the UK we would say that you have 'opened up a can of worms'  with your words above.  You have opened the way to hundreds of questions. 
And although @Witness gives some very fine comments, she/he also opens the way to many questions. 
For God to fulfil his 'plans' I would think He would need some kind of 'united people' Earth wide. And hence He would need to guide those people by using/sending His Holy Spirit to them. 
But as the GB and presumably the Writing Dept et al, admit to not receiving God's Holy Spirit  then I presume God cannot be using them at this time.
No i don't expect humans to be perfect or to act perfectly.
But I do expect anyone chosen by God, to become leaders in God's chosen 'united people', to be inspired by God's Holy spirit so as to do their jobs properly.  
As you say Srecko, God works through His Holy Spirit. He has always done so in the past, why would He not do so now ?
 

This is an excellent comment, Srecko. 
Has the organization’s leaders, with their consistent errors in doctrine and prophesy, ever had God’s Spirit?
2 Pet 1:21 - "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." NKJV
“for prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men borne along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”  Mounce
"But you must understand this at the outset, that no prophecy of scripture arose from an individual’s interpretation of the truth. No prophecy came because a man wanted it to: men of God spoke because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit." (Phillips)
It is so clear; if JWs would only take the guiding scriptures to heart and not the “guiding” words of men who not only admit they are not inspired, but have proven it to be true.  
Holy Spirit at Work - the Token:  http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/07/holy-spirit-at-work.html

Dear reader.
You have often come across terms, God's holy spirit and God's love.
You have also often prayed for the favor of God, among other things asking that God's holy spirit help you, guide you, to have a spirit. Some Bible passages say that God gives something to people.
We find expressions that say how God gives:
- his spirit without measure - John 3:34.
- a certain measure of faith - Rom 12: 3
- a measure of grace - Eph. 4: 7
- measure of authority - 2 Cor. 10:13
- a double measure of blessing - Isaiah 61: 7
- double measure of inheritance - Deut 21:17
- double measure for bad deeds - Rev. 18: 6
Also how a man seeks or receives from another man:
- double measure of spirit - 2 Cr. 2: 9
- double honor - 1 Tim. 5:17
 
There are also allegations relating to love. How love is given or received and under what circumstances:
And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him. ”- John 14:21
For God loved the world, - John 3:16
I love those who love me - Prov 8:17
Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens - Psalm 36: 5 -7
I have loved you with everlasting love; - Jer 31: 3
 
From these statements we can see that love also works under certain circumstances. Sometimes it's eternal, going to heaven. Sometimes it is conditioned because he says: I will love you if you love me", "if you obey, listen me".
Based on the paragraphs that speak of giving / receiving a spirit, I could conclude that God gives the holy spirit to those who seek it, and those whose hearts are pure receive that spirit from God. When GB claims that they make mistakes in word and deed because they are not perfect and because they are not "spirit-inspired," then that is just an excuse. When they claim that they are not "inspired by the spirit of God," that would mean that God does not give his spirit to anyone, not even to them. So, if they, as "God's elected," "anointed," cannot be "inspired," then they are actually sending the message that no one else can be "inspired." And then such a claim has the consequence, meaning, that God and his spirit are not able to be active. God works through his spirit, doesn't he? Well, he created the universe with his spirit ?! He wrote the Bible with his spirit ?! He uttered prophecies with his spirit ?! And today the spirit is unable to act on the few people sitting in Warwick?
Does God lie when he says, "... for God gives the Spirit without limit. - John. 3:34
Is the problem in the spirit of God? Or is it a problem in humans? :))
 
 

Because wicked persons can become Jehovah's executioner, persons like Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, and Cyrus could be considered to be Jehovah's "servants." But we have really had to stretch ideas in the tree parable. In the past we said that Nebuchadnezzar represented Christ, but the Watchtower has now explicitly stated that this is not the type of parallel. Still, we have tried to explain that Nebuchadnezzar's low beastly state of insanity somehow parallels the fact that Jesus was "low" in the sense of being humble, born as a human [in a manger], etc. I haven't seen that negated, but it hasn't been used in quite a while.