Patiently waiting for Truth

On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner.
'For fear of stumbling others'.  They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal. 
I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie  It was soooooooooo funny.
When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ?  Where is the sense of balance ? 
 

I CAN explain it all ... I have been watching, and studying  for more than 50 years.
I try NOT to think like, or be,  a professional child.
I do NOT think I have enough "spirit" to judge anyone .... in the sense of somehow punishing them.
My only judgement of "them" is to avoid and ignore "them"
... I do enjoy the option of being able to enforce my preferences, if necessary.
...which most people might consider a blessing.

I've never been disappointed in you, James.

Of course he said it. He is now trying to walk it back because, despite all his blustering, he couldn’t quite make it stick.
It is as you say. The nearness of the end has been impressed upon Witnesses from their inception, but the only specific date in anyone’s lifetime today is 1975. They burned their fingers on that one so badly that they resolved never to do that again. So far they have kept to that resolve. Every subsequent pronouncement has been generic, and is in harmony with Jesus’ counsel to “keep on the watch.” 
Alan’s just upset that they have not said not to keep on the watch. In fact, he’s probably upset that they have not denounced God, for he writes that he has “disproved” him.
If you can distract the Librarian for a moment, I wrote long ago of another such revision that Alan has no doubt chronicled. If by some miracle he missed it, it is another that he can throw on the stack:
Paragraph 18 [of the Revelation book] on page 94 states "some scientists forecast mathematically that an accidental nuclear war is virtually certain to take place within the next 25 years - let alone a planned nuclear conflagration!" The updated version, however, yanks this phrase for the blander: "some scientists speak of the possibility of an accidental nuclear war - let alone a planned nuclear conflagration!"   [!]
The reason the publishers have done this is because Tom Barfendogs has marked on his calendar (to the day, hour, and minute) exactly when 25 years from the first book's publication expires. He is praying, hoping, pleading that there is no nuclear war within that time frame (after that is okay) so he can launch into yet another false prophetscreamfest.
https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2007/07/will-the-real-a.html
I wrote the post 12 years ago and it stands up reasonably well. The line that I like most is “after that is okay.” It is the same with Alan. The prospect of nuclear war isn’t as disturbing to him as the horror that JWs might get credit for warning of. It is the same with countless other factors that have this world teetering on the brink. He doesn’t think it is in any great trouble, or if he does, he certainly doesn’t want anyone looking anywhere else outside of human answers for the remedy.
In this sense  he is the biggest hypocrite of all. He rails against Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it is really God, the Bible, and specifically the notion of his kingdom coming that rankles him.
 
 

Anna said:
It's gross deception. Why? Because it deliberately gives a completely false picture of what the Bible Students said.
That's like saying the Nazi's tried hard not to be dogmatic about Nazism, but didn't always succeed.
Tell me if the statements quoted below about 1918 and 1920 are dogmatic or not.
The Finished Mystery, 1917, pages 62, 64, said with great authority:
<<
The data presented in comments on Rev. 1:1... prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.
The awakening of the sleeping saints, A.D. 1878, was just half way (three and one-half years each way) between the beginning of the Times of Restitution in 1874 and the close of the High Calling in 1881. Our proposition is that the glorification of the Little Flock in the Spring of 1918 A.D. will be half way (three and one-half years each way) between the close of the Gentile Times and the close of the Heavenly Way, A.D. 1921.
>>
These predictions failed. More forceful language was used in the predictions of a terrible destruction due to come on Christendom's churches and their members in 1918, with their dead bodies strewn about unburied. Pages 484-485 said:
<< Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." >>
Page 513 said:
<< In the year 1918, when Christendom shall go down as a system to oblivion.... God will cause the nations to shake with gigantic revolutions. >>
The book also predicted stupendous events for 1920. On page 258 it said:
<<
Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920...
Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy...
The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy.
>>
On page 542 it said:
<< As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all-embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. >>
How about the following statements about 1925? Were they dogmatic or not?
The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90:
<< . . . we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old . . . >>
The May 15, 1922 Watch Tower said:
<<
We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.
It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need?
Using this same measuring line... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.
>>
I could go on with this for a long time, but here's the link on this that I already gave you: https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-3-statements-concerning-1918-1925.html
Not dogmatic? Please!
The split is more like 90-10 when it came to anything to do with the Gentile Times stuff the Proclaimers book was discussing.
Believe what you like. Quotes like the above say different.
Time to go beddie-bye.

Trust NO ONE, and you will seldom be disappointed.

Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad,  and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah".  As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....

Anna said:
The Society made direct statements as well as more subtle suggestions. Take a gander:
<< How thrilling that must have been for Paul and Barnabas-sailing to their first foreign assignment! The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our century. >> January 1, 1989 Watchtower, p. 12
Note that "in our century" was changed to "in our day" in the bound volume and in the CDROM Library.
Note that when the following statements were made, the Society was teaching that "the generation of 1914" meant the group of people alive in 1914 who survived until "the end".
<< Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. >> -- "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah"-How? - 1971
<< And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end. >> -- October 15, 1980 Watchtower, p. 31
<< It has been thrilling to see the fulfillment of Jesus’ sign showing that the Kingdom was established in the heavens in that momentous year 1914. And Jesus has told us to rejoice at seeing the dark storm clouds of Armageddon gathering since that time. He has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—”will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! >> -- March 1, 1984 Watchtower, pp. 18-19
<< The Time for a Change Is Near!
Carole, from France, has a “marvelous hope” and foresees, for the near future, “something marvelous—not at all like the world we live in.” Samuel, a 15-year-old youth from the same country, also believes in a complete change: “For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don’t think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day. . . We are living in the last days of the system of things.” Ruth, a German girl of 16, also expresses her confidence in these changes: “I know I’m not smart enough to change the world and make things run right. Only Jehovah, our Creator, can and will do that soon.” >> November 8, 1986 Awake!, pp. 7-8
 

I am still of the opinion that when translating from ENGLISH, to another language, a person MUST be a fluent EXPERT at both languages, and have lived in areas where both are spoken extensively, and also have a DEEP knowledge of the history and culture of both places, AND have a potload of plain old common sense .... which is not all that common.
I suspect that this is true in all other language translations.
We have Bible translations in over a thousand languages (...or is it just some Bible literature?) ... but how good are those translations?
The Polish people fought the Nazi tanks on horses, with horse drawn artillery, and they acquitted themselves magnificently ... but it was no contest, and they lost miserably.
..... same thing.

The way the Bible expresses it is: “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”  By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.” 1 Tim 6:20
The verse you are looking for is: “The wisdom of this world is such that God could learn a thing or two from it if he wasn’t so brain-dead.”
Let me know when you find it.

Since most people are shunned for unrepentant  immorality - I think you are missing the point.   Those few who leave for other reasons often end up in "relationships "  or some other habits like drug abuse,  smoking etc.  Many, who are totally unrepentant end up opposing JWs in very deceitful ways, spreading false info about us.

On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner.
'For fear of stumbling others'.  They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal. 
I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie  It was soooooooooo funny.
When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ?  Where is the sense of balance ? 
 

On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner.
'For fear of stumbling others'.  They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal. 
I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie  It was soooooooooo funny.
When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ?  Where is the sense of balance ? 
 

@Arauna  you must really have OCD about sex. 
Quote " The signs read: "love does not shun".   True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. " 
The sign is about emotional family love, nothing to do with immorality. 
Reminds me of those on here taking about 'tight pants tony'...  You JW's seem to have relate everything to sex or to this rotten world that belongs to the devil. 

Any questions?
JW 'Niceberg' is what I heard it called.... LOL

James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
Well -- sometimes.
Indeed -- something that high-control-group leaders like the JW Governing Body always forget. They dictate their version of "a good conscience" to the group members and boot out all who disagree. Thus, members either adopt the leaders' conscience, or they shut up.

Put in another thread. Start one if you have to. Your hostess, the Librarian has (repeatedly) requested it.
Is consideration for the wishes of the web owner too much to ask?
Do you pull off your muddy boots before entering someone’s living room?

Srecko Sostar said:
To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations. The translation itself is not much open to discussion, as virtually all Bible translations use "day".
Quite so. The original NWT Committee was comprised mostly of gophers like Albert Schroeder who did busy-work like making cross references. A Greek name George Gangas helped a bit with the Greek translation, but he had no education, and his Greek was modern Greek, not 1st century Greek.
The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew. He was entirely self-taught in Hebrew. It seems that much of Franz's knowledge of Hebrew came from looking up words in Hebrew-English lexicons and looking at many Bible translations. He also elicited help from a scholarly Jew living in Brooklyn, and from at least one recognized Bible scholar (Goodspeed?) who produced his own partial Bible translation.
In 1994 I met one other actual WTS scholar who seemed competent, but of course he had nothing to do with the original New World Translation. He died about 20 years ago. He was a Romanian named John Albu, who immigrated to the U.S. around 1970, and quickly became a JW, and soon an "anointed one". He soon joined Bethel and worked on translation and chronology stuff. He told me that he was educated in Europe in Hebrew, Greek and other languages. Eventually serious health issues forced him out of Bethel, but he continued to work closely with the Writing Staff. He worked as a doorman for a hotel in Manhattan. It's fairly certain that Albu did much of the research that resulted in the infamous chapter 14 of the 1981 WTS book "Let Your Kingdom Come", written by GB member Lloyd Barry. He told me that part of the reason he became a JW was that the NWT was so fabulously accurate.
I suspect that Franz and Albu would strongly object to the new NWT. While it's far more readable in many areas, it violates Franz's dictum that the NWT should be literal to a fault, being more of a "dynamic translation" in the spirit of the New International Version. Of course, Freddie always skewed his translations in favor of pre-existing Watchtower doctrine, sometimes stretching Hebrew and Greek meanings to their limits, and occasionally past those limits.
My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most. They all have inaccuracies and various warts, but in different areas. Much of the criticism of the NWT comes from Christian scholars who are obligated by their religions to argue in favor of doctrines like the Trinity, and so often use really bad arguments to criticize the NWT. I think that Fred Franz was a brilliant but insane man who fell into C. T. Russell's cult at an early age and never recovered.

I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about zebras. Coming from the Master of Rationality, I’d say that this bit of “evidence” is rather weak.
Another bit of proof!
It IS true that, as they were dropping the 1999 New Year’s Eve ball in Times Square, the brothers were dropping an identical one at Bethel: “Four...three....two....one....IT’S THE NEW SYSTEM!!!! ......Oh.....Still the same?.....nuts!”
What is wrong with you? There is 1975 and only 1975 in anyone’s lifetime. And, as stated, even that one is arguable.
You’re just steamed that there has not been counsel: “Remember, brothers, how Jesus said ‘Keep on the watch?’ He’s nuts. Fogedaboutit!”
This speech is shocking! Who can listen to it?
It is on a topic having nothing to do with the theme of this thread! How could you?!
Put it up on another thread. Start one if there is not one already! Same with Alan with his dates. A completely different topic. Start a new thread!
How can you people be so insensitive to the wishes of @The Librarian (that old hen)? She has made it clear that she wants order. We must be considerate of her and not just think of our own selfish desires. Otherwise she will throw everything in one master thread where the focused energy will cause it to explode like a supernova, blowing us all to Kingdom Come!
(maybe that’s how The End comes about)

TrueTomHarley said:
Um, I was alive for 1975, 2000 and Real Soon Now. My mother was alive for them and 1941. Old Freddie Franz was alive for all of those false predictions.
You really have a bad case of pathological lying.
The prediction for 2000 was made at various times from the 1970s through 2000 itself. Real Soon Now started about 1914 and continues.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! JW rules, not the Bibles'.
Ever read Deuteronomy 18? JW leaders have always claimed to speak in God's name and have always made false predictions. Deut. 18 calls such charlatans false prophets.
How about Luke 21:7-8? That's explicit not to follow anyone who claims to speak in God's name and says about the time for "the end": "The due time has approached".
False. The language in Watchtower publications is explicit. You've obviously read the quotes, so your rationalizing comment is yet another outright lie.
Oh? So JWs are supposed to view Watchtower predictions of "the end" as in consequential?
I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about 2000. In online forums in the late 1990s, many JW apologists threatened: "You'll get yours when 2000 rolls around!"
And today we see Arauna vaguely warning that Real Soon Now world leaders will do all manner of vile deeds. And of course, the Society itself makes this warning at every District Convention.
Not arguable at all. Following Orwellian crimestop principles, you've simply dismissed from your mind what you've read and, on some level, know very well it is what the false prophets known as JW leaders said. For example, the old Aid book and an Awake! article clearly stated Adam and Eve were born in the same year, just months apart. A late 1960s Watchtower had a big spread on 1975 and one article was titled, "Why Are You Looking Forward To 1975?" Do you need a refresher?
Well, here are a couple of refreshers:
https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-3-statements-concerning-1918-1925.html
https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/1975-new-info.html
 

Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA.“
BECAUSE THE GB ARE HIDING PAEDOPHILES IN THE JW ORG BY WITHHOLDING THE 20 PLUS YEARS OF DATABASE INFORMATION FROM THE AUTHORITIES. 
Hope that helps him to understand it. 

Happiness is overrated.
Nazi combat soldiers were a happy lot ..... when they were winning.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a "happy people" in the midst of a hostile world.That happiness comes from the spiritual food and the way it is delivered to them. They are the only ones sharing their hope in God's Kingdom with all who will listen around the world. God has fed them well through Christ and the GB just he said they would eat while others go hungry, they would drink while others thirst.
The individual witnesses have trust in the GB in Christ' hand. They have faith that just as Jehovah has spoken it will be.The world may hate us and assault our faith, but we see their hate and accusations as Satan's works of desperation.
Today we wonder what the 3 demonic expressions of Rev.16:14 will prove to be. What signs will convince world leaders to turn on the religions of the world and destroy them.
We are at the doorstep of discovery, the events are unstoppable. The opposers will cry out because of the realization that they were in reality fighters against God and all that is good in His eyes!

TrueTomHarley said:
Another lie. Plenty of cases have been brought (or would have been brought if not for statutes of limitations) where elders were the molesters.
His comments amounts to calling you out on your double standards: You basically say, "We're ok because the world is worse".
A deceptive rationalization. It's saying that Christians are above the world.
Then explain the Governing Body's actions toward homosexual pedophile Leo Greenlees.
LOL at the Orwellian crimestop!

Or .... if we have more common sense than a potato, what was written in the Bible will be crystal clear the first time we read it.
hint hint: That's why we have a conscience.