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Patiently waiting for Truth

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  1. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Dmitar in Revelation 12 : 6. 1260 days. Revelation 12 : 14. a time and times and half a time. 3½ times = 3½ years, of 360 days Prophetic calender   
    dodo was probably the word you finally settled for but I'm sure there were others prior to that.  
  2. Thanks
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in Revelation 12 : 6. 1260 days. Revelation 12 : 14. a time and times and half a time. 3½ times = 3½ years, of 360 days Prophetic calender   
    This is true, and as others have pointed out, this is the basis for turning the "7 times" of Daniel 4 into 2,520 days, rather than 2,557 days (7x365.25 = 2,556.75). Of course, since we claim that nothing very notable actually happened after 2,520 days, we look to see what might have happened if we use the a "prophetic formula" found in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 to change that same number of days into years.
    But, according to the Watchtower's teaching on this period, we don't stay consistent with a 360-day year. We quickly switch it up to a 365.25 day year, or full calendar year. That's because if we claimed that Daniel really meant 360 day years for the prophetic fulfillment, then we would only be able to reach from 607 BCE to about 1877 CE. Even if the Watchtower started counting from the correct date for the destruction of Jerusalem, it would only reach to about 1897.
    The Watchtower actually doesn't give a good reason for switching from 360 to 365.25 when calculating the fulfillment of the prophecy, as you can see from the article that attempts to explain it. 
    *** w64 12/15 p. 759 Why the Changes in World Governments Since 1914? ***
    The year of the Jewish and Babylonian calendars varied in length from as low as 354 days to as high as 385 days. But in the Bible’s symbolic or prophetic “time,” or year, the number of days is fixed at 360. Seven of such years would be 7 X 360 = 2,520 days. This is corroborated by the statement in Revelation 12:6, 14, where it speaks of “a time and times and half a time” or three and one-half times, as 1,260 days. If we divide 1,260 by three and one-half (3.5), it gives us three hundred and sixty (360) days to a “time,” or year.
    As to the greater length of time that these 2,520 days pictured, we find the rule of “a day for a year” in a prophecy of Ezekiel, who prophesied contemporaneously with Daniel and who also had the matter of “bands” connected with his prophecy. Another prophecy by Daniel with respect to the first coming of the Messiah, namely, the prophecy of the “seventy weeks,” is understood by Bible scholars to apply the same rule.—Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 9:24, 25. See also Numbers 14:34, which deals with a period of punishment or disfavor.
    Therefore, the 2,520 days of the “seven times” would be 2,520 years in fulfillment. These years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. For we must remember that the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar. So the 2,520 years are to be counted as solar years.
    I don't think that's true. (It's possible though.)
    The method of counting the number of days from one month to another would sometimes be rounded off to 30, even though half the Hebrew months contained 29 days. It was easier to count a very close estimate this way rather than use the true average of a Hebrew month which was 29.5 days. There are still legacy financial systems today that use this 30 day month estimation for calculations of bank interest and "time-value" of money. That's why Microsoft added the 360-day year formula to Microsoft Excel.

    The Babylonians also built counting systems on multiples of 30 and 60, even though they were well aware of the need to keep adjusting their years between 354 days and 384 days to keep an average of 365. The Jews were aware of this too, which is why the apocryphal book of Enoch made so much of the fact that he lived to be 365, and Enoch gets the vision in this book about creating an ideal calendar based on 360, but with an extra day added to each of 4 "seasons" to bring a calendar close to 365.  Although priestly Jews may have tried to keep an "ideal" astronomical calendar to help them know when intercalary months should be added, the actual practical calendar in use by the Jewish people always made use of the day of the month., based on watching for certain phases of the moon.
    This is true enough. But the Egyptians also knew that the real year contained 365.25 days. So they had a 5 day holiday every year, but didn't add a leap day every four years as we do for our modern calendar. You probably read things like this when you looked it up: https://www.infoplease.com/calendars/history/history-egyptian-calendar
    About 4000 B.C. they added five extra days at the end of every year to bring it more into line with the solar year.1 These five days became a festival because it was thought to be unlucky to work during that time.
    The Egyptians had calculated that the solar year was actually closer to 3651/4 days, but instead of having a single leap day every four years to account for the fractional day (the way we do now), they let the one-quarter day accumulate. ...
    In addition to the civic calendar, the Egyptians also had a religious calendar that was based on the 291/2-day lunar cycle and was more closely linked with agricultural cycles and the movements of the stars.
    There are a couple more 3.5 year periods that may have been seen in the first Christian century. There is nothing that definitively states that Jesus ministry was exactly 3.5 years. John evidently highlights a single year of Jesus' ministry. It's assumed to be 3.5 years as a fulfillment of Daniel's 70-weeks prophecy. There is also a potential 3.5 year period between the time of Jesus death/resurrection and the general opening up of the preaching work to the Gentiles. And there is another one possible from the time when Roman armies first encroached upon Jerusalem in 66 CE reaching up to the final destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 CE. Some Bible commentators try to make a lot out of this period, too, in discussing the meaning of Revelation.
    Revelation may have also been making an allusion to a well known and necessary lesson about how earnest prayer gave the power to overcome 3.5 years of tribulation in Israel:
    (James 5:17) 17 E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet when he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
     
    Good question. The Jews would likely have continued using the standard Hebrew calendar that switched between 12-month years and 13-month years so that it would average 365.25 over time. They had been using this since Babylonian times or before, and Hillel says they continued to use this method even a couple hundred years after the first century.
  3. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to TrueTomHarley in Revelation 12 : 6. 1260 days. Revelation 12 : 14. a time and times and half a time. 3½ times = 3½ years, of 360 days Prophetic calender   
    Once and for all, will you please get it right? I have not called you a “fool” or “stupid.” I have called you a “dodo.”
    Not me.
  4. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to JW Insider in Revelation 12 : 6. 1260 days. Revelation 12 : 14. a time and times and half a time. 3½ times = 3½ years, of 360 days Prophetic calender   
    True, but it was always a FULL month added, not a partial month. There is no such thing as inserting a partial lunar month. A lunar month always started on the day when the first new moon crescent would appear. If anyone tried to add a partial month, then every month after that could never begin on the day of the first new moon crescent. The phases would become meaningless, and no one would be able to tell for themselves what day it was, nor when to celebrate a holiday.
    There is no way to know exactly what method was used throughout Jewish history, but it ultimately settled into a system similar to the Babylonians, where full months were added every two or three years to make a 13 month year instead of a 12 month year. The cycle repeated every 19 solar years because that many solar years just happens to almost exactly equal 235 lunar months, always counting from new moon to new moon. if every year was left at 12 lunar months, there would only be 19 x 12 = 228 months, so they had to add 7 more full months every 19 years.
    Tropical year = 365.24219879 days. 365.24219879 x 19 = 6,939.602 days (every 19 years) Synodic month = 29.53058868 days. 29.53058868 x 235 = 6,939.688 days (every 235 months)     The Insight book acknowledges this: *** it-1 p. 390 Calendar ***
    We do not find record of a definitely fixed or standardized form of Jewish calendar until the fourth century of our Common Era (c. 359 C.E.), when Hillel II specified that the leap years of 13 months should be the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th of each 19 years. Such a 19-year cycle is commonly called the Metonic cycle, after the Greek mathematician Meton (of the fifth century B.C.E.), although there is also evidence that such a cycle was perfected before him by the Babylonians. (See Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, by R. A. Parker and W. H. Dubberstein, 1971, pp. 1, 3, 6.)
  5. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Dmitar in Will Life Ever Return to Normal? How the Bible Can Help in a Post-Pandemic World   
    How can the Watchtower be guilty of aiding an unknown perpetrator much less with the UK owns laws, concerning privacy rights? The UK has to prove "intent" under international law to accuse the GB, of what you are accusing them.
    Remember, this false narrative comes from, former Jehovah's Witnesses as propaganda. There is no legitimacy with that slander.
    Since the Bible is the Watchtowers constitution, what part of the bible do you deem inappropriate usage?
    My point was, when was Jesus NOT human, while he was on earth? That was the clarification I was seeking.
    Sure I can. Can you?
    Do you believe the entire Watchtower members are distant to a heaven's calling? Use yourself as an example. Would you be credible in the eyes of God?
    Since you were a member in conflict, do you believe the congregation you once dedicated your service to God should trust you?
    In what sense? Those members that fall under the preview on sin? Are you saying perpetrators shouldn't be disfellowshipped? Doesn't your opinion contradict, unless you are saying, your friends shouldn't be subjected to canonical law. 
  6. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    Yes but JWs are forced to shun ex-jws, and those ex-jws could well be innocent, free of the sins that the Elders condemn them for. In cases of CSA people have been removed from congregations for demanding that a pedophile be investigated or removed from the congregation. Sometime that pedophile is an Elder and the other elders protect the pedophile by removing or disfellowshipping the victims of sexual abuse.  Such cases have been proven in the courtrooms of the Superior Authorities. But some people don't want to believe vicitms of CSA, those people would sooner serve the GB and it's immoral Org. 
  7. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    Widely known practices of shunning that is obligatory religious behavior in WTJWorg.
  8. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    Here down  is original comment.
    Additional comment related to the original:
    In this particular situation (Charlie Hebdo shootings) in France, some people who are followers/members of Islam (two Muslims) done violent act in the name of Islam. 
    As you see from my original comment, i didn't say how Islam is violent. And i didn't make claim how Muslims are violent because Islam is violent religion.
    You made fine observation where we can see how people from various religious background acted violently (individually or organized).
    As for the violent act of conduct in WTJWorg, violence of this type is contained in the manipulative actions of religious leaders (guardians of doctrine) and executors of orders (primarily elders and from majority of members). A further psychological act of violence is in the methods of shunning, towards members, ex-members and even towards many who do not belong to the JW religion.
    We can always ask ourselves what is harder, to beat and kill someone? Or completely ignore and blackmail someone mentally and emotionally?
  9. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Witness in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    I had all that info' come through on an email as I'm on the mailing list.  
    Jesus made it very clear that true Christians should turn the other cheek, give the inner/outer garmnet also, walk the extra mile................ 
    The GB are just greedy selfish non-Christian men that love power and attention.  And of course they are guilty of ruining people's lives and they don't want JW's or outsiders to know the truth about how they work. 
    Fancy being happy that you drive people to suicide. Split up families. Hide pedophiles in their organisation. Disfellowship victims of CSA just to get them out of the way. And then cry like babies when the truth is revealed about them. 
    The GB are wicked money grabbing selfish hypocrits. But their time of judgement will come.
    Remember Luke 17 : 1&2 
    Berean Study Bible
    Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
    No Dimmy, I am not one of the fake 'christians' that love everyone. I hate the things that YHWH hates. 
     
  10. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Only jws will be saved   
    Sorry I'm jumping in on this one and not really familiar with all comments, but has anyone mentioned that 'it had been thought' in the past, that non Witness husbands/wives of baptised JW's might well be 'saved' at Armageddon. Saved through the faith in God and Christ that the married JW had. Is this still the thought or would the spouse not be saved ? The thought of the married couple being 'as one'. 
  11. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Dmitar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    I had all that info' come through on an email as I'm on the mailing list.  
    Jesus made it very clear that true Christians should turn the other cheek, give the inner/outer garmnet also, walk the extra mile................ 
    The GB are just greedy selfish non-Christian men that love power and attention.  And of course they are guilty of ruining people's lives and they don't want JW's or outsiders to know the truth about how they work. 
    Fancy being happy that you drive people to suicide. Split up families. Hide pedophiles in their organisation. Disfellowship victims of CSA just to get them out of the way. And then cry like babies when the truth is revealed about them. 
    The GB are wicked money grabbing selfish hypocrits. But their time of judgement will come.
    Remember Luke 17 : 1&2 
    Berean Study Bible
    Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
    No Dimmy, I am not one of the fake 'christians' that love everyone. I hate the things that YHWH hates. 
     
  12. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Dmitar in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    It that the excuse they make on behalf of Elders ????? All the CSA is just because Elders are stupid.
     
  13. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Will Life Ever Return to Normal? How the Bible Can Help in a Post-Pandemic World   
    That inclues the GB of JW org. 
    YHWH and Yeshua are not 'men' because they are not human.  It is only for the sake of human understanding that we think of them as 'men' or 'male'.  So, do you teach that they are actually men or male ?  I prefer to teach that they are spirit and do not have human bodies. 
    The GB of JW org has an agenda of it's own, power for the GB only. 
    Part of that agenda was spreading the rumour that a person 'must be a baptised JW to be saved'. 
    Another part of that agenda is the lie that only those 8 men of the GB, are the Faithful and Discreet slave. That gives the power to those 8 men. 
    Can you say it is not an agenda when 8 men exalt themselves above every other person on this earth. 
  14. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    Sad or not, it is so in our reality. This reality we have spares no one, whether former or current JW.
  15. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    Of course it can. Happy?
  16. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Pudgy in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    …. “Now look in the mirror and @Pudgy then, think how much more "obtuse" former Jehovah's Witnesses are with their woeful and foolish debates.”

  17. Downvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Dmitar in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    Now look in the mirror and @Pudgy then, think how much more "obtuse" former Jehovah's Witnesses are with their woeful and foolish debates. Can that theory not be expanded within the millions of former witnesses?
  18. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Pudgy in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    Unfortunately, doing stupid things is one reason men die before women.…… usually prefaced with “…… here, hold my beer!”.
  19. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in Governing body will sue anyone?   
    Could it be said; If someone is just plain stupid JW, then he/she will do the most harm to self and family? If someone is just plain stupid Elder, then such will harm 100-200 others around him? If someone is just plain stupid King, then he can ruin thousands and millions of subjects?
  20. Like
    Patiently waiting for Truth got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    I had all that info' come through on an email as I'm on the mailing list.  
    Jesus made it very clear that true Christians should turn the other cheek, give the inner/outer garmnet also, walk the extra mile................ 
    The GB are just greedy selfish non-Christian men that love power and attention.  And of course they are guilty of ruining people's lives and they don't want JW's or outsiders to know the truth about how they work. 
    Fancy being happy that you drive people to suicide. Split up families. Hide pedophiles in their organisation. Disfellowship victims of CSA just to get them out of the way. And then cry like babies when the truth is revealed about them. 
    The GB are wicked money grabbing selfish hypocrits. But their time of judgement will come.
    Remember Luke 17 : 1&2 
    Berean Study Bible
    Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
    No Dimmy, I am not one of the fake 'christians' that love everyone. I hate the things that YHWH hates. 
     
  21. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    Yes, as for the lawyers who decided to volunteer for WTJWorg. I think there were law firms that were hired outside of WTJWorg. Maybe some JW brother / elder who has his own law firm or a “secular” law firm.
  22. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Anna in How much are Watchtower Lawyers paid?   
    I don't think they get paid for this, I think they do it for free....just like everyone else who does any work for the org. if they're a JW.
  23. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Space Merchant in BETHEL'S BIG SECRET   
    Yeah just do not watch the video at all, granted it is already a misleading bias piece. There were points made via bias opinion concerning several examples about race, archives, the Holocaust, etc, and in the video itself all points were incorrect as an attempt to mislead. An example is in regards to the EXJW stating Hitler started first and built the camps for JWS only and went after the Jews later. That makes no sense, and I can see why people got banned from the YouTube channel.
    That being said, always do the research for anything and everything for the facts. What you see here is both @Srecko Sostar and @Witness once again, defending something false. As I told them, no one is asking them to agree with Jehovah's Witnesses, but they were asked to use critical thinking to do the research to not get duped by the falsehood, yet they hold an agenda to defend the video to the point they contradicted themselves effectively putting them in err; the refutation ended on pages 10 and 11, but it seems at this point, @Witness and @Srecko Sostar is beating a dead horse.
    Regarding the issue about Racial Tension, @JW Insider and I mentioned it before. The reason JWs are pinned to the events of 1921 was due to the fact Pastor Rutherford at the time was either about to give a sermon/talk or it took place already, but the events of Sarah Page pretty much caused a lot of blood and death in Tulsa, which indirectly effected Bible Students in that part of the United States. 
    That said our countries are no different, the US has it's Racial issues at the time, and I am sure the UK did also, as with others.
  24. Upvote
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Srecko Sostar in BETHEL'S BIG SECRET   
    The video talks about the public part of the JW library and the part that is not publicly available. Is that clear to you? It is clear to me.
    The video also talks about “access” to publications (I add; any kind, not just magazines). And we commented on that as well.
    So the theme of the video, for me, is not cramped and limited only with WT magazines written 100 or more years ago.
    Does every JW have access to correspondence between HQ and assemblies, and the so-called BOE Letters? Does every JW have access to the so-called Shepherd book? And so on, and so forth.
    I know they doesn't. And you know that too. Then what are we talking about? We’re talking about “secret” parts of the library (archives are next level) , and also so called "confidential" documentation that is of JW public interest. (I don’t include CSA data here, or excluded JW persons and their “sins”, that’s another topic). I am talking about records and publications that include the actions of the corporation, technical and religious administration, doctrinal twists, etc. that affects every day life of members/followers.
    If the average JW members does not have access to, say, the Shepherd book, and if the vast majority of them do not know that the book exists, then the meaning of the terms "public" and "secret" has changed.
  25. Haha
    Patiently waiting for Truth reacted to Dmitar in BETHEL'S BIG SECRET   
    Good one! 🤗
    Shouldn't this sentiment be for all Christian believers? Why spoil it with hate toward the GB?
    If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue,...this man's religion is vain. James 1:26 
    BECAUSE the tongue is the index of the heart, because "out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaketh," therefore the unbridled tongue, speaking selfishly, enviously, bitterly, boastfully, slanderously, proves that the heart from whose fullness these overflow is unsanctified, unholy, grievously lacking of the spirit of Christ—hence, whatever religion it may have attained is thus far vain, as that heart is not saved, nor in a salvable condition....The Good Physician has pointed out antidotes for soul-poisoning—medicines which, if properly taken according to directions, will sweeten the bitter heart. 
    Does this mean, you are going to act more civil, or follow scripture more closely than you have before?
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