Pudgy

…. and, 13 hours later, on a related note … "I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves." - Jerry Garcia (Grateful Dead)

WOW! SO YOU COULD NOT THINK OF A SINGLE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE. THAT SAYS IT ALL!

… and if you really HAVE an alleged specific example, try not to obfuscate it with associated irrelevancies ….

Care to give a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE?

No.

What is so pathetically sad, George88, is that the point was SO SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND … and look how you distorted it!

I generally ignore your comments BTK59, because they do not address what is actually being discussed .. you go off on an irrelevant tangent, misconstrue the real issues, and ask rhetorical questions that are borderline absurd. For a change, I will this one time address your post, point by point as follows: However, my question, "pudgy", why should I pay attention to the relentless complaints of excommunicated former members who have nothing constructive to offer except ignorance and distortions? Because Everything I post is true, based on evident facts that are or can be easily proven, and are common knowledge for anyone not immersed in an agenda driven matrix of religious fantasy. For a change, attack what I actually present instead of your hatred for the messenger. Ignorance and distortions? Challenge me on SPECIFIC EXAMPLES! Without real, SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, your fantasy opinions are only fantasy opinions. You desire to remove the intermediary, you are that intermediary. Since you did not specify what the hell you are talking about, this is not even addressable. Care to quote me or at least give an example? Is it fair to blame Christ or the apostles if someone decides to stop identifying as a Christian or following Christianity because they no longer found it beneficial? Since your reading comprehension skills are distorted and warped by trying to defend the indefensible, you have not seen that I have NEVER, not once, in the more than a decade of posting on this forum, accused Christ or the Apostles of ANYTHING. I have accused the Governing Body of chasing rational people away by the tens of thousands with their irrational, unscriptural policys masquerading as the will of God. Eventually, your dislike towards the organization should be justified. There are two ways to read the above sentence, and in the first case, I have already addressed it. As a clarifying point, I am also an American (USA) citizen, and really happy about that … but I dislike the reality that agenda driven power hungry men have so severely damaged the Republic with disregard for it’s founding document, the Constitution. I feel the same way when the Governing Body severely damages the Brotherhood, by disregarding the Bible, to maintain control. Hmmmmm …. this wasn’t too bad. I may address your sad ad-hominem attacks more often. … or not!

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Your entire argument and chain of logic, BTK59, can be instantly and totally refuted by the real life classic example that for 80+ years the Society’s policy irrationally and unscripturally placed heavy burdens on the Brotherhood by persecution of Brothers with beards. I was even chastised for a mustache in a “little back room” with three elders, which hurt my feelings terribly. There is only so long some people will tolerate small tyrannies before the start voting with their wallets and their cars to escape it. Of those who once chose to become Jehovah’s Witnesses, according to 2016 Pewresearch.org, 66% no longer identify with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are voting with their wallets and their feet. JW Core Theology (15%) produces peace, righteousness, fairness, Truth, and Freedom as an adopted Son of God. So why do 66% LEAVE? There should be a line at the Kingdom Halls of people trying to GET IN! That is NOT the case. Then if you consider the PIMOs (Physically in, mentally out) who only stay to keep their families from shunning them and tearing their family relationships apart, that even further emphasizes the fallacy of your theories. I plan to celebrate per GB Update 2023-8 “Beard Liberation Day” every December 15th, for the rest of my life, for what I personally endured for 60+ years, and hope for a theocratic future with many other needed and overdue reforms. When having to endure petty tyranny, some do not consider it petty. Such is the case in California now, a State I used to love and admire, having lived in San Diego, Malibu, Hollywood, and San Francisco many years ago. The thought of even visiting gives me the creeps now. Many are leaving for good, to Texas, Florida, Nevada, North and South Carolina, etc. They are voting with their wallets and their cars!

I have the same image problem as Wendy Thomas. As “Pudgy”, the beloved 2 Dimensional cartoon dog plagiarized from the “Get Fuzzy” comic strip, I am often confused with the 3D dog “Spherical”.

How about this ….. Quit butting in to be Baptismal Regulators, and leave the people alone to make their own mistakes. The Baptismal Covenant is between each individual person, and God and Christ. Butt out and just watch who is mature and who isn’t. Teach them well, and don’t exile, shun and destroy family relationships. When they screw up, and they will, let Jehovah handle it. It’s HIS Covenant Arrangement.

Why not eliminate the middlemen and let this be a decision between each individual child, and God and Christ? Those are the legitimate parties to the Baptism Covenant. Nobody else.

Well… I go by life experiences. When my brother was 17, during the 1960’s, he wanted to Join the Marines, go to Vietnam and “kill gooks”. A year later he was 18, a hippie, and said “Hell No! We won’t go!”, and didn’t. Real life experiences trump esoteric theory.

This is the underlying principle of what everyone here knows and remembers … and the REASON for objections to minor child baptisms …except of course Wally McNasty and his up and down voting clone sock puppets. But then again, that is what WDS IS. Regardless of anything else that may or may not be true, the 2001 and 2012 Watchtowers offers much sound advice. (… entirely from memory, but it made sense at the time…) The fact that it is CONFLICTING advice is the sticking point! And … the issue of massive collateral damage for a premature decision made by an 8 year old, etc. is never mentioned in baptism recruiting efforts. At what age do you think a child is mature enough to give others the legal right to destroy him or her, and their family relationships, perhaps ten years later? There was a valid reason why Jesus was not baptized at age 12.

And now … a little musical interlude to lighten things up … for those with TDS, WDS, and even “P”DS. IMG_9292.MOV Try not to have your brain explode.

… exactly the diversionary tactics I described in my posts … instead of just downvoting my posts … refute them! …. give it a try … you can use whatever Whack-A-Mole pop up screen name you want! After two sentences everybody knows it’s YOU anyway!

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… Harsh, but fair. They did say specifically in Governing Body Update 2023-8 that the example they used for guidance was powerful and respected mens’ customs of the world. ( rolls eyes and facepalms forehead ) The only thing I can imagine is that at their weekly meeting on Wednesday sometime in December an Angel with a flaming sword appeared and “read them the riot act” … or their accountants told them they were bankrupt. Or possibly some Multi-Billionaire with a Beard was recently baptized. …. merely guesses. The Warren Commission Report on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was issued on September 24, 1964. Before I die, I would like to read a non-fiction version.

…. Ol’ Whack-A-Mole George likes to “move the goalposts” and try to get you to run to it. His favorite tactic, designed to obfuscate and deceive, is to change the parameters of what is being discussed, redefine the terms, and try to get you to answer a dozen almost relevant questions that would each take an Epistle essay to straighten out from his revised false premises. So transparent it’s laughable … and I do.

And now it’s time for the multi-name Whack-A-Moles and his/her/they/thems’ minion up and down voting doppelgänger sock puppets to have their say ….

There is a LESSON TO BE LEARNED from the “Beard Fiasco” …. Perhaps many lessons. The question is … how many tens of thousands of the Brotherhood will be collateral damage every year until those lessons are learned?

I think the issue of underage baptism needs to be evaluated the same way other decisions are made by minors …. and since a Baptism Covenant and dedication between a person and God CANNOT BE UNDONE … except by God … it should be made with that foremost in mind. This is a Covenant Of Dedication, allegiance and fealty to God and his Christ …. ONLY! 1.) At what age should a lesser decision be made by a minor about getting married? I say at least 18, and for about 1/4 of the population 24 to 30. 2.) At what age should a lesser decision be made by a minor about getting a driver’s license? I say at least 18, if they can pass the exams. 3.) At what age should a male or female decide that they want to be surgically mutilated, by circumcision or “transgender” reassignment? I say at least 30. 4) At what age should a man or woman be allowed to take up recreational parachuting? I say at least 18. 5. At what age should a person be allowed to join a military organization? I say at least 18, preferably 24. 6.) At what age should a person be allowed to consume alcohol, or other recreational drugs? I say 18 as a minimum. 7.) Since the JW baptism oath of today legally binds you to obey the policys and directives of the “Organization”, under pain of being disfellowshipped, and exiled, and shunned, and the same to every JW that knows you that does not do the same, at what age should a young person be baptized? I say 18, the same as any secular military organization. In scripture ONLY men and women were baptized. Jesus was Bar-Mitzpah’d at age 12, presumably, but waited to be baptized until he was 30. Why? A person, boy or girl, should not make a decision at age 8, 10, 12 or before age 18 that has the potential to later HAVE OTHERS DESTROY THEIR AND THEIR FAMILIES’ LIVES. These conclusions are only my personal opinions, but they have a rational basis. Like circumcision, male or female … baptism cannot be undone. If the Society would allow shunning to be a personal decision of each individual in the Congregation, and release all the hostages from their oath of fealty and obedience to the WTB&TS “Organization”, so they cannot be sued because they are members of a private legal covenant … I would withdraw my objection to an 8 year old being baptized. For a change …. let God decide. The Baptism Covenant should be between individual people and God and Christ ONLY. Earthly accountants, lawyers, and overreaching tyrants who promise to rule well, BUT INTEND TO RULE ANYWAY, should not be involved. It took them 80+ YEARS to figure out beards!

Here is a Zinger! There is no biblical example of ANYONE being baptized as anything other than as a full responsible adult. Jesus was what … 30 years old?