Pudgy

I first became aware of the Procter & Gamble satanic allegiance controversy in 1980, and if memory serves about that same time there was a skit on SNL about that but I don’t quite remember that I just remember the impression of it.
The congregation I attended in Portland Oregon knew about this controversy and told me about it as a fact. The fact that Procter & Gamble and its symbol was of satanic origin.
I also heard about this at work several different times.
I put it on my metal shelf of things that could be true, or could be false, but since I had no directed interest in such things and it didn’t affect my life I pretty much ignored it as much as I could. For me it came under the category of “Interesting if true, interesting if not true, why should I give a damn either way.”
Except for the people at work, I never talked to anybody that wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. This is pretty much been through my entire life as I do really don’t have any interest in talking to people at all, as I’m occupied with internal thoughts that keep me quite busy.
People would mention this to me, and occasionally I asked the question out of the blue to people, casually interested in the truth. I did notice that nobody had any proof of any sort and it was complete hearsay.
So what I did was this, I wrote a letter to Procter & Gamble asking them about the assertions of their satanic involvement, and this was of general conversation in the area at that time which was 1980, but I was distracted because Mount Saint Helens in Washington state just exploded, and Portland Oregon was covered in about 2 1/2 inches of volcanic ash.
Realizing from experience that’s the easiest way somebody can ignore you is to say they didn’t ever get the message, I sent it by certified mail, return receipt requested (the green card you may be familiar with), and pretty much forgot about the whole thing, in the same way I might ignore some nutty group in Australia, when I’m busy trying to work a heavy overtime schedule.
…. but one day I got a reply from Procter & Gamble and when I opened it up I was expecting to see a simple affirmation or simple denial perhaps with some documentation to prove it either way.
What I got was a history of the symbol of how it happened that boxes of their soap and it was Ivory soap at time would be shipped by boat up and down the rivers, etc. and as they were unloaded on the docks they started putting in chalk stars, moons or other things to separate their shipments from other shipments that were on the same boat.
As an aside it’s a same sort of thing is done as identifiers on Russian manufactured tanks to tell where they’re coming from or where they’re going to etc.
The correspondence included the History of how the symbol developed with some inserts perhaps five or six explaining this that or the other thing which might be considered somewhat related to my original question which was extremely simple but they never answered the question directly.
 Because of the “million words“ they used, most people, even the great majority of people, would assume they did answer the question but they probably couldn’t tell you what the answer was, but the impression was that Procter & Gamble was not involved in any satanic activity.
I try to never ever assume a persons motive, or their intentions or their knowledge or lack of knowledge unless they have a gun pointed at me and cackling like Vice President Kamila Harris For no apparent reason.
After studying the materials at Procter & Gamble sent me, It became quite clear that they were deliberately being ambiguous so as not to say anything at all while leaving the impression that they were not involved in the satanic activity.
My guess was that since their headquarters was in Cincinnati Ohio right on the river between Ohio and Kentucky, they have people of all religions creeds and ideas, and somewhere in their organization there might be a group of employees that are part of the satanic cult, but not part of their business.
Just a guess.
No more.
The fact is, and all I can say about it is this is when in the middle of a national and international controversy about this exact issue,  when directly asked a direct and unambiguous question, they waffled and never denied satanic influence association or involvement.
And it was quite clear to me they deliberately did this.
It’s like when a politician is asked a simple yes or no question, and the reply is so long, rambling, and manipulative that you don’t even want to ask a follow-up question because you don’t wanna have to go through that again.

No matter how you feel then or now, it's still good information. Why? Because it shows, or even proves, that an organization is made up of people who are in governing structures, no matter what level such individuals or clusters are according to Bethel, more influenced by the negative than the positive.
Also, the concentration of “apostates” in Bethel refutes claims in WTJWorg magazines that the organization is “run with hs”. If there were them at that time, then there have always been them until today.
Who runs WTJWorg?
Who did Raymond betray? What did he betray? Your image you had of him? Or you personally? Or God? Perhaps he betrayed you on that personal level. So it is more about emotion. He disappointed you emotionally, and not on issue of moral, principle, justice, Bible or God. 
 

Remember, Ray (R.) Franz, was a GB member.  
Ray Franz, “In Search of Christian Freedom” – "I have seen people very greatly harmed by the false urgency surrounding the 1975 predictions, with some undergoing extreme emotional stress, families facing enduring economic strain for years, men who had given up good jobs having bouts with alcoholism due to the difficulty in finding new employment, elderly persons who faced a bleak future due to using insurance or similar funds prematurely, persons whose physical health was seriously damaged due to putting off surgery or other treatment.  If the sacrifice had been for truth, for God, for a noble purpose, then it would be worth it. But it was due to a mental concoction (Col 2:8) originating with one person and then promulgated by an organization and it ended in nothing, proved a complete fiction.
They may try to shrug it off, but the responsibility for all this rests with those who gave birth to the false hopes, who stirred up and excited illusionary expectations”  (p. 567)
 
 
Ray Franz, “In Search of Christian Freedom”, p. 425  – "The organization seeks to robe itself in the awesome role of a prophet of God and claim the deference that such a prophetic office merits.  Yet it disclaims the responsibility for accuracy that goes with the office.
If confronted with God’s words at Deuteronomy 18:20-22 about such prophetic accuracy, it presumes to set this aside as not applying to it in its role of a “genuine prophet”, and “authentic prophet class”.  By what right does it do so?  Does merely saying, “Well, we’re all imperfect”, excuse the organization from having that Biblical standard of a genuine prophet applied?    It asks its adherents to disregard its past trail, which is strewn with unfulfilled predications and now-rejected erroneous interpretations, and to continue to put near reverential trust in what it publishes, granting it the dignity and honor and credence due a prophet of God.  Instead of feeling humbled by the clear evidence of its erratic, zigzagging course, it becomes more strident in its claims, more dogmatic as to its pronouncements.  Is this the course of a “genuine prophet” of God?
When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.   W 13/11/15 p. 20
 
 

Of course, with all/full right for such reaction. 

Nullified, you lost the plot, once again. With all due respect, Srecko, if I were you, I'd reflect. What I do not understand is why such a man like yourself chooses to remain in a Stasis like paradox state of subtle insanity (mental time loop). And no, there were people who were alive that day and witnesses the events. We can't leave them out, even former members who found out the truth later on.
Seeing you down voted, it seems you've taken that to heart. You never change. You never move on.
@Witness Respectfully, Madam, I do not think you understood what was said about Prophets and False Prophets. I recommend looking into what a legitimate Prophet and a False Prophet is and or represent. Doing so, would help you better understand. So, what I said is true, you are among those who have their own definition for these terms.
@JW Insider Thanks, it is good to read from one's experience.
 

Oh no! I promised myself I wouldn't respond to any of this 1975 stuff unless someone asked me a direct question, either on "private messaging" or directly in the forum. We've beaten this subject to death under other topic headings.
When you ask, "how was it back then?" I can naturally only speak to my own experience and those near me at the time. Many people have already made the point that there was more speculation in some regions than in others. I was baptized in 1967 but was only 10 years old, and I know that I was personally influenced by all the talk, and the books about 1975 that had just been published. I started auxiliary pioneering every summer since 1967, and finally quit high school when I was still 15, to start regular pioneering in 1973, and hoped to go to Bethel in 1975. I wasn't old enough until the beginning of 1976. 
We were in a region that also had a District Overseer who pushed the "Stay Alive 'til 75!" idea, although he used different words. We had two different circuit overseers during that time, and I've spoken to one several times since then (Kent Carras) over the years. He had the most influence on me quitting school and going to Bethel. My mother was a great believer in the 1975-era speculation. My father was actually against all of it, and it even got him in a bit of trouble with the District Overseer, a Circuit Overseer and one of the elders who worked for him. It was on his side of the family that my great-grandfather and grandfather and grandmother had listened to the same type of speculation over 1925. It was my father who told me that the same phrase had been used: "Stay Alive Until 1925!" He recognized it for what it was, and always tamped it down with Jesus' words about no one knowing the day or hour. (That's actually what got him in trouble with the the District Overseer.)
So I was very much in the middle of the speculation, and was too young and enthusiastic about the Watchtower Society's "likely" prediction that I might not have time in this system to graduate high school, and that it would be even less likely that I could complete a degree in college. And then there was the direct and absolute prediction in the Watchtower publications that I would never be able to take advantage of a college degree in this system. (My father was the "presiding overseer" but he taught at the local university, and ran the electronics labs there. He hired several Witnesses and two other elders, so he never got the flack about education that some Witnesses got in those days. He also had a two-year electronics trade school program in mind for me.) 
There were very few in my area who weren't pretty well versed in all the speculation. They could quote the Watchtower's material, and only a few people were actually speculating that Armageddon had to happen by 1975. This was their own speculation, not the Watchtower's. My mother was a 1974 person, because it still had to be a surprise. That was also her own speculation, of course. But our Circuit Overseer (Carras) understood that it was not about the system ending in 1975, per se, but it was about what the "1970's" will bring. He was able to show how the Watchtower was actually only predicting that it "could" happen by 1975, but that the system COULD go on as late as 1977 or even 1978. In other words, it could happen by 1975, but it will happen before the end of the 1970's. Curiously, all that talk about the 1970's went away by the end of 1975, or even by 1974, and the new "date" was soon pushed out to as late as the year 2000, for when this system will  have already ended.
When I got to Bethel in 1976, I was in the Art Department, but given some research assignments that eventually led to working for Brother Bert Schroeder starting in 1977 (until 1982). This kept me in the Bethel Library (and Gilead Library) almost daily and I began working with several of the other members of the Writing Department. My current understanding of the 1975 issues is very much influenced by what I learned from them (including Brother Swingle, Schroeder, Chitty, Rusk, and 3 members of the "Aid Book" team). Although I hardly said more than just "hello" to Raymond Franz in those years, I did speak to F.W.Franz for several hours of taped interviews in 1978 (mostly about organizational history after 1925). After reading what R.Franz said about the 1975 issue in "Crisis of Conscience" I'd say that it is probably the most accurate recounting of the 1975 situation.  I don't think anyone who was at Bethel during those years would find any inaccuracy in what he said.

@Dmitar Thanks I'll look into it. But yeah, the peddling for false stories and information tends to be frustrating and the people behind it are relentless. SM pointed out it has even gotten to the point that people looking in are now calling out some lies former Jehovah's Witnesses are pushing. One thing I remember was a while back one of Jehovah's Witnesses made a comment about a verse being omitted, Acts 8:37 and an angry mob went after him. He knew it was a waste of time to deal with people like this so he bailed, and once he left, they mocked and slandered him. Someone who was a former member made a video about the verse and continued the attack. It did lure in some JWs and others to correct the guy who made the video, but they were drowned out by those who are not only ignorant, but relentless in their attacks.
You really can't find peace with these people, nor can you get them to see what they are pushing are lies. The sad thing about it, there are indeed some who are not hate driven, but they are also drowned out too.

In 1941 the WT organization also fueled feelings about Armageddon at the time, even within that same year.
Cartons of Children that had been deposited in The Arena were now opened, and Judge Rutherford instructed the children how to come and each get a copy thereof, those in the rear half of The Arena marching in two columns out through a side exit, and those in the front half of The Arena marching up over the platform and out through a rear exit. As the march began, the orchestra (minus all its children instrumentalists) struck up and rendered songs, "Children of the Heavenly King," "The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon," and "Who Is on the Lord's Side'" while the vast audience sang. Never was there a more moving Sight in these "last days". Many, including strong men, wept at the demonstration. Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided Instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon. What a gift I and to so many! The manner of releasing the new book Children was an outnght surprise to all, but the almighty hand of the All-wise One, Jehovah, was in it, and the maneuver was most blessed indeed. Thereafter Children, the author's edition, was disposed of to adult conventioners, on a contribution.    WT September 15 Page 288

@Arauna @Space Merchant @Dmitar One thing is certain - Eventually when someone believes a lie long enough, they'll think it to be the Truth, for if someone or a party repeats a lie often enough and it becomes the truth, this is usually the case when it comes to propaganda.
@JW Insider - I couldn't really see what was said due to the warzone of yet another 1975 debate, I think SM said you had experience that day or something to that effect, how was it back then?
 
 
@Space Merchant 2 Things, seeing "Truther" being misused several times you mentioned a deranged woman to @Pudgy and you mentioned a name someone called Serena? Although it may not be important, I was kinda curious. Also Pudgy thank you for the comic relief because it was somewhat of a task to read some of the things said. >_<

Oh boy. 1975 Again? 😕

All I would say about this is that there are some who did assume something entirely different about 1975, and the whole world ending thing for 1975 was drummed up through some people hearing differently. This is why even today, people are getting quite annoyed with the 1975 thing spoken by only one side who says they were right, effectively trying to defame JWs at the time. Technically, when it comes to these things some people (as seen here) bring up the topic of 1975 for one sole reason: to brand Jehovah's Witnesses as 'False Prophets' by their own definition, ignoring what is meant by the word 'prophet' and what was intended by WBTS publications, even during those days.
I can also say that the 1975 ordeal did not occur until the book, titled "Life everlasting in the Freedom of The Sons of God" was released; published in 1966.
I realize whenever the discussion of 1975 does come up, many things are taking out of context (even snippets), numerous times to make it seem that Jehovah's Witnesses at the time assume Armageddon would come in the year 1975, which is untrue because like I said, things taken out of context.
For example, often, if not most times, the quotes are never addressed by the one side party.
What I have listed here are several examples, but there are more, often times ignored, but they all speak in the same effect.
Now there were numerous people around that time, and there were arguments around that time and the people who knew about 1975 often times won out.
 
Further information I found, thanks to Quora:
 
But real talk though, I don't see why people try to spin it differently to make it seem that the wrong claim for 1975 to be true.
There are many people who are still alive who were around that day, in their experience who never assume what is being suggested here. And because of the wrong information being used to point fingers, it shows not only some here rely on a False Witness, but they are not being truthful in their hearts.
You can't really say you follow the Christ if you're one sided on something, namely shown to be associated with rumors and or speculation. To those people, you kinda know who you are.
Seeing the discussion on where it started, I already know the party who won that debate; and by winning is the fact that the other party cannot really bring up anything claiming Armageddon was said or written to come in 1975...
Jesus wants us to be truthful, one can't be if they're leaning on being misinformed heavily with a heart tainted by hate.

I honestly think I’ll have to block him, my first block ever (despite some very disagreeable people on the forum). My spirit can no longer stand the wear and tear.

I honestly don’t think he is…no witness would talk as he has and does but he does have a lot of info and good at chronology….I think he’s a plant to cause divisions ..and he’s very good at it,

I do not know what a "rouge jw" is.
How do you define a "rouge jw" ?
Kinda a reddish orange. like someone with a cosmetic bottled suntan?
If that would NOT be surprising to you, you seem to speak with some degree of authority and experience in the matter.
Do you have much experience going to back doors,  stalking 14 year old girls?
Did you know Jeffery Epstein?

"... A caller reported three suspicious men, including one man in a wheelchair, going door to door in Cathlamet. He later said they were Jehovah’s Witnesses. 8:22 p.m."
It wasn't they guy in the wheelchair ... it was his two friends who were in "lurk" mode, you know, both hands out in front of them like dog paws, and walking on their tiptoes ....
What you REALLY have to worry about is them Mormons!

…… and for the woman who wants to drive her man craaaazy! ……
 

…… and for the woman who wants to drive her man craaaazy! ……
 

…… and for the woman who wants to drive her man craaaazy! ……
 

Yeah, the wafting fragrance of Pyramid Petunia.

Your a nut…you wouldn’t even know what you know about Jehovah without the GB…you follow unreasonableness and demon spirit inspired people who contribute absolutely nothing to anybody..and nobody knows  anything about them if they were never associated with witnesses…they contribute nothing to poor uneducated people who have no computers or who do not read…and nothing to society at all…just people massively engulfed and drowned by their own pride…they are the modern days Sauls even…
The GB have done such things…they have taught people to read…and see and study the scriptures for themselves….even if they didn’t go on to follow our beliefs….they have helped the deaf to hear the message of the Bible…..at no cost and even if they don’t follow our belief system…they have organized a world wide program to reach people…yes they have errors…and will continue to have them u til judgement day arrives….but the basic doctrines have always been solid…and you wouldn’t even have known them if it wasn’t for the GB down then the years.
Do I like everything or agree with the way they may handle everything….no…but nobody else knocked on my door and explained the basic truths as good as they did…
what have you and others like you done but sit at your computer and try to ruin others faith…do you do that to the Catholics or any other beleif system..
Satan has fueled you with a sense of pride that excels that of Sauls…your as crazy as they come.
Talking to you and your lot is like talking  to a stobie  pole..thick as a brick.

This is what I suggest.  Buy yourself a 25 piece puzzle on Amazon, and practice putting it together until you see the entire picture on the box.   Then, revisit 1975, put the pieces - all of the Wt  articles pertaining to 1975, together, and you will see the entire picture.  (but you already know that)
Better yet, find a JW who sold his house around 1975, and forfeited his job to prepare for Armageddon.  Ask him, if he believed the organization's leaders told him that 1975 was the date for Armageddon.  (you already know his answer)
If you can't envision the "picture" puzzle, or you don't believe the JW, you are either blind, hard of hearing, a liar, or a manipulator -  for whatever reason, only you know.  
 

:))) 
A lot has been said, because a lot of it has been written about 1975 in WTJWorg publications.
There is no need to explain this from me, because it is the rhetoric that is widely used by GB and WTJWorg.
But you haven't become a "Truther" yet, have you?  
You have a lot of difficulty in various forms of perception, while you put other people in boxes that you shape yourself of your choice, don't you? Even Dmitar warned me about your modus operandi.  
WT exposes itself by exposing its past by blaming its own flock of sheep for alleged rumors that the flock began to spread on its own.
It is absurd to believe in GB claim that JW sheep started bleating about 1975 unprovoked. The then and present WTJWorg administration is a church hierarchy that does not allow anything to happen beyond their control.
And today you are trying to sell us the claim that these were some insignificant or semi-insignificant JW rank and file members who started mass hysteria (rumors) of such magnitude that even today WTJWorg publications have to write about it on the pages of WT magazine that is studied at JW meetings ? If 8 million JWs have to read and discuss this in meetings today because GB decided it was important for today's JWs to learn, then it's hard to accept your thesis that it was just rumors that were the product of the intellectual incompetence of a few JWs from period before 1975.

For those that have been on the ARCHIVE for many years, we remember that what has been said about this if it was assembled and stapled  together it would be about  a 1000 page book.
 
Everything that has been said or could’ve been said has been said, over and over and over and over. Then it’s been rephrased a dozen times In a dozen different ways and that has been resaid over and over.
in a dozen different ways and that has been resaid over and over.
It’s real simple for me, because I was there and I watched it happen from California to the Congo and in the state of Virginia in the middle.

The battle cry was “stay alive till ‘75”
.…. which, surprisingly, I’ve been able to manage, so far.

What do you think Armageddon means to JWs?  It means the destruction of the "world" as they know it.  Analyze the first paragraph, with eyes open.  
 
 
 

Okay. So you are in the waiting area. And you know among the deboarding passengers fleeing disaster are your family. Do you shower all your hugs and gifts and kisses on the first person you see, or do you wait for your family?
Why are you being so dense about this?

He knows. He's just being intentionally antagonistic. He knows it's logical to let Witnesses stay with Witnesses. He doesn’t want to admit the bond those of like mind and faith have, because he doesn't have that anymore.