Pudgy

Further about the situation with Zalkin.
From one website:
"He Zalkin) also has four years of redacted documents locked in a filing cabinet in his office. The judge’s protective order prevents him from saying how many documents he received or describing what they reveal about child abuse in Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations.
“It’s very frustrating to have seen what I’ve seen and to know what is going on in this institution and this organization,” he said. “It’s very frustrating when I’ve got a gag in my mouth. It’s pretty hard. We’re trying our best to expose this truth, and they’re doing everything they can to interfere with that effort, to block that effort.”
Who put the gag in his mouth? The judge.
And if you don't mind me saying, what has he seen, as he claims? And what does he know about the "institution"? In reality he knows nothing, only what he has heard or seen written down.  He is just saying words that will impress lay people, people who don't know much about JWs or the law. He himself knows, as a lawyer, he could never divulge information in these documents. He would lose his license immediately.

So, we could say that it is a matter of decision, In this case by JW elders, how much they want to be principled. The three Jews from the book of Daniel were so principled that they were thrown into the furnace of fire. Some are principled and refuse blood transfusions or military service. But WTJWorg lawyers are the ones asking the court that JW elders should have the same status as Catholic priests. It is not the court that grants them that status (perhaps court try to understand and make comparison between payed and not-payed "ministers" . The JW elders invoke the right not to speak before the Court what a JW member has admitted to them.

Yes, we have discussed this on the forum before. I think this issue is taken to be viewed from the secular perspective only. They, the secular authorities, designate JW elders as having a clerical role as ministers (of religion). Therefore, under official circumstances, such as in a court of law, elders are viewed as "clergy". Whether they themselves, or the congregation view them as clergy in the traditional sense or not is irrelevant in these secular circumstances. (JWs view everyone who is baptized as minister, but obviously there is a distinction between roles and obligations, since elders also have the role of oversight and shepherding). I think in secular terms the word elder falls under the umbrella of clergy, despite the fact that our "clergy" do not hold matters confidential (as you and pudgy pointed out) to the same extent as a Catholic priest for example.

Legislators obviously have not made an exception to who exactly should be viewed as clergy. They have not, as far as I know, added a clause which says JW elders should not be viewed as clergy because they are not the same as Catholic priests and do not view confidential disclosure in the traditional sense. By law, they fall under the same umbrella regardless of differences of application by the particular religion.

If I remember right, the plaintiff in a recent lawsuit tried to use the difference of elders and clergy to his advantage by arguing that elders cannot be viewed as clergy because their brand of “confidentiality” includes a whole body of elders and the HQ. However, the judge deemed this irrelevant because he said it is a religions right of how they (JWs) apply their beliefs, and that it wasn't the courts business to tell a religion how to run their religious affairs, and then on that account make exceptions to secular rules. In the courts eyes an elder was clergy, period.

In saying this, I personally believe the org. should refuse the designation of clergy by secular authorities as applying to them. But I am not sure if this is possible legally? It might not be.
In any case, if it is possible, then I think they should do it. But law is so complex, rigid, and impersonal and doing something that is not according to the law can have bad repercussions down the road, even for an innocent party.

The JWs have been trying to, actually imploring, legislators to change the law and make ALL clergy mandatory reporters (all over the world). This is what all victims want too. Perhaps this is the real answer to solving the problem…. 
 
 
 
 
The law forbids him to use it.  
I don't think the WT org. has the right to publish it or give anyone else the right. These papers involve specific cases, most of which have not even been proven, but are allegations (and these allegations would have to be proved as fact in court). To publish anything like this....well I am sure you can see this would be very wrong. Zalkin is not interested in publishing, (against the law anyway) as much as he is interested in wining specific cases. But unless a victim asks him to do so, he cannot open a case. So he has no choice but to keep the files locked up.

There are SOooo many things that "look good on paper", that work well on paper, but in the REAL world, because all humans are flawed, some more than others, the "rules, regulations, protocols, and intentions" in the REAL world are. AS APPLIED, also deeply flawed.
It's the nature of the beast.
Those who don't get out of the basement much never realize this, and their inexperience, and lack of perception causes them to imagine a world where the way things SHOULD be is somehow attainable.
It's not
Get used to it.
Or have a stroke.
It's not so amazing that the dancing bear dances well ..... but that it can even dance at all.
In the Catholic World View, a Priest is the intermediary between God and mankind, and if you confess to the priest, whatever you confess is, in theory, known only between you and God.
The classic example of how this does NOT work is how, during World War II, in Germany, the Catholics were taking confessions of resistance fighters, and acting as an intelligence  network for whoever they thought would win the war, at any point in time.
Usually the Nazis, as former Cardinal Pachelli, who before the war was the Vatican Secretary of State, and who signed the "Holy Concordat" between the Vatican and the Third Reich, aligning the two governments in common cause.
So, a Catholic would confess to the Priest, and the info, if of tactical advantage to the Nazis, went to the Nazis.  Usually.
Among Jehovah's Witnesses, if a Brother or Sister confesses to the Elders some transgression, Matthew 18:15, in my experience, and the experiences of every account I have ever heard of, is NEVER invoked when it is time for "the rubber to meet the road".
Matthew 18 in general is completely ignored ...when it is needed the most.
Not only that, but they share details with the ENTIRE body of elders, who share it with their wives, and other elders in other Congregations they know well ... and make written reports to Headquarters, reviewed by many there. Lawyers, Secretaries, Clerks, and IT people when it is digitized.
Nothing new.  Nothing unusual. Same-Oh-Same-Oh.
It's just that the dancing bear has two left feet, and a balance problem.
Bears should not try and dance, but since the beginning of time, all figurative bears dress up in top hat and tails, and try to dance.
Anywhere on this planet, in every time and place, this is true, to a greater or lesser extent.
Recognizing REALITY, as it really is, is sad, discouraging, and then we die.
As each of us march without pause to our own eventual deaths, the important thing is to stay sane.
Sanity requires that we recognize that our "Spiritual Paradise" is not. It is, as applied, a very bad form of organization.
Sanity requires that we recognize that all the others are so much worse.
Matthew 18 is by far the most important book of the Bible, down here where the "rubber meets the road".
 
 

There are SOooo many things that "look good on paper", that work well on paper, but in the REAL world, because all humans are flawed, some more than others, the "rules, regulations, protocols, and intentions" in the REAL world are. AS APPLIED, also deeply flawed.
It's the nature of the beast.
Those who don't get out of the basement much never realize this, and their inexperience, and lack of perception causes them to imagine a world where the way things SHOULD be is somehow attainable.
It's not
Get used to it.
Or have a stroke.
It's not so amazing that the dancing bear dances well ..... but that it can even dance at all.
In the Catholic World View, a Priest is the intermediary between God and mankind, and if you confess to the priest, whatever you confess is, in theory, known only between you and God.
The classic example of how this does NOT work is how, during World War II, in Germany, the Catholics were taking confessions of resistance fighters, and acting as an intelligence  network for whoever they thought would win the war, at any point in time.
Usually the Nazis, as former Cardinal Pachelli, who before the war was the Vatican Secretary of State, and who signed the "Holy Concordat" between the Vatican and the Third Reich, aligning the two governments in common cause.
So, a Catholic would confess to the Priest, and the info, if of tactical advantage to the Nazis, went to the Nazis.  Usually.
Among Jehovah's Witnesses, if a Brother or Sister confesses to the Elders some transgression, Matthew 18:15, in my experience, and the experiences of every account I have ever heard of, is NEVER invoked when it is time for "the rubber to meet the road".
Matthew 18 in general is completely ignored ...when it is needed the most.
Not only that, but they share details with the ENTIRE body of elders, who share it with their wives, and other elders in other Congregations they know well ... and make written reports to Headquarters, reviewed by many there. Lawyers, Secretaries, Clerks, and IT people when it is digitized.
Nothing new.  Nothing unusual. Same-Oh-Same-Oh.
It's just that the dancing bear has two left feet, and a balance problem.
Bears should not try and dance, but since the beginning of time, all figurative bears dress up in top hat and tails, and try to dance.
Anywhere on this planet, in every time and place, this is true, to a greater or lesser extent.
Recognizing REALITY, as it really is, is sad, discouraging, and then we die.
As each of us march without pause to our own eventual deaths, the important thing is to stay sane.
Sanity requires that we recognize that our "Spiritual Paradise" is not. It is, as applied, a very bad form of organization.
Sanity requires that we recognize that all the others are so much worse.
Matthew 18 is by far the most important book of the Bible, down here where the "rubber meets the road".
 
 

Laws and regulations about issue is available to see and you said well.
Of course, when we speak about JW elders then it is notable to understand how we have to put clear picture on question; Do they, JW elders, clergy or not? If they are clergy then they have "right" to call themselves on Catholic Clergy privilege and ask for same "rights" as they do. 
Is an elder in the JW congregation the same as a priest in the Catholic Church? Do they have the same role and obligations and status according to biblical principles? Do they belong to the same kind of hierarchy (Catholic hierarchy, "Apostolic" hierarchy) as WTJWorg lawyers have sought before the courts?
I guess someone gave him that information and someone "forbade" him to use it. Or he got them on the condition that he shouldn’t use them. The source (WTJWorg) of the information would have the right to publish that information for the sake of “truth and justice”. But that wouldn't be of interest to the WTJWorg organization, would it? That would distort the image of a "spiritual paradise."

If I'm not mistaken, sharing some information, especially when it pertains to privileged and private information is not legal. I'm not even talking about sharing information about a perpetrator, I'm talking about the victim/survivor. Zalkin is sitting on a pile (he says about 100) of cases given to him by the org. which he is not allowed to use or make public by law. They are locked up in his safe. 
Also, I do not think the existence of such documentation/records has ever been denied.
 

It will have to be "Others." I don't have a satisfactory answer. I don't know. Perhaps @bruceq has come up with something.

At the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm, in the Tennessee Valley, the Congregation had an Elder there whose garden was at the base of the mountain, and unless the sun was directly overhead, not much light would get to the vegetables.
He was a fine, theocratic Brother, and took as literal the Scripture at Mark 11:23 about the mountain being relocated, and prayed constantly that God would remove this mountain that shaded his garden most of the day.
After having casually prayed for the mountain to be moved many times, late one night he really "poured it on", with prayer and supplication, almost praying himself into a coma, beseeching God that in the morning, that cursed mountain would no longer be keeping his garden from growing.
Finally, he got to sleep, and when he woke up, the first thing he did was look out the bedroom window to see if that awful mountain was still there.
The mountain was still there.
He turned away in disgust at that mountain, and muttered to himself, "It figures!".
The moral of the story is this: There is a difference between faith in God doing something for you, and faith that something can be done.
.... perhaps at an earlier time in history people could work with quantum probabilities, where absolute faith equaled telekinesis.
(Re-read the Scripture in Mark again to see what it is NOT saying...)
.... after all ... to this very day we still do not know how the Great Pyramids of Egypt were constructed.

A rough parallel is dogs .... The Disney Character Pluto is Mickey Mouse's dog, and he walks on four legs and has a tail as thin as a clothes line, a collar, and makes normal dog sounds.
Another Disney Character is a dog, wears clothes, and a vest, and walks around on two legs, and can talk just as good as Mickey Mouse.
....and that's just Goofy!
So, which one is lying?
I suspect rules are different if you live in a two-dimensional world, of paper.
..... tell me about it !

The Pyramids during the beginning times, the “Time of the Giants” were ill thought of by such ones, as they were nocturnal and on moonless nights would step on them.
This was before sandals were invented. 

The Pyramids during the beginning times, the “Time of the Giants” were ill thought of by such ones, as they were nocturnal and on moonless nights would step on them.
This was before sandals were invented. 

They were mountains in my back yard. I was always tripping over them, I had to weed whack around the base, the local teenagers would congregate on the dark side to smoke pot, and they were a general eyesore.
I prayed and prayed that they be moved. I don’t care where you put them, I said, I just want them gone. Next day I looked out the window and they were nowhere to be seen.

At the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm, in the Tennessee Valley, the Congregation had an Elder there whose garden was at the base of the mountain, and unless the sun was directly overhead, not much light would get to the vegetables.
He was a fine, theocratic Brother, and took as literal the Scripture at Mark 11:23 about the mountain being relocated, and prayed constantly that God would remove this mountain that shaded his garden most of the day.
After having casually prayed for the mountain to be moved many times, late one night he really "poured it on", with prayer and supplication, almost praying himself into a coma, beseeching God that in the morning, that cursed mountain would no longer be keeping his garden from growing.
Finally, he got to sleep, and when he woke up, the first thing he did was look out the bedroom window to see if that awful mountain was still there.
The mountain was still there.
He turned away in disgust at that mountain, and muttered to himself, "It figures!".
The moral of the story is this: There is a difference between faith in God doing something for you, and faith that something can be done.
.... perhaps at an earlier time in history people could work with quantum probabilities, where absolute faith equaled telekinesis.
(Re-read the Scripture in Mark again to see what it is NOT saying...)
.... after all ... to this very day we still do not know how the Great Pyramids of Egypt were constructed.

At the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm, in the Tennessee Valley, the Congregation had an Elder there whose garden was at the base of the mountain, and unless the sun was directly overhead, not much light would get to the vegetables.
He was a fine, theocratic Brother, and took as literal the Scripture at Mark 11:23 about the mountain being relocated, and prayed constantly that God would remove this mountain that shaded his garden most of the day.
After having casually prayed for the mountain to be moved many times, late one night he really "poured it on", with prayer and supplication, almost praying himself into a coma, beseeching God that in the morning, that cursed mountain would no longer be keeping his garden from growing.
Finally, he got to sleep, and when he woke up, the first thing he did was look out the bedroom window to see if that awful mountain was still there.
The mountain was still there.
He turned away in disgust at that mountain, and muttered to himself, "It figures!".
The moral of the story is this: There is a difference between faith in God doing something for you, and faith that something can be done.
.... perhaps at an earlier time in history people could work with quantum probabilities, where absolute faith equaled telekinesis.
(Re-read the Scripture in Mark again to see what it is NOT saying...)
.... after all ... to this very day we still do not know how the Great Pyramids of Egypt were constructed.

..... although, I can tell you from experience, if you snap at and catch a Bumblebee, it WILL be a life changing experience!

At least, as you can plainly see, as almost all dogs are, I am VERY cute!
.... and VERY "low maintenance".

...sez the faceless Pwft, who seems to disparage the possibility in others, whoever they might be,  the fact that he himself is hiding behind an alias .... without a face.
When you can be irritated by a cartoon dog, because he does not discuss "spiritual matters" in a manner to your liking ... who is it that really needs a shrink?
Lighten up .... you will live longer, and be a LOT happier.

Wow! Okay........
That's interesting..

Yes, that’s it. 
 
I’m trying to make people believe I am really a dog.
You got me on that one. You got me on that one
….. what did it take, two months for you to figure that one out?
 
Bbbbbb …..
BrouhahaHAHAHAhaha!
( … rubs front paws together, as if puttin’  on hand lotion, while snarling with exposed fangs !)

I believe it was Linus, of the comic strip "Peanuts", running for Class President, who in his school auditorium got up on the stage, and behind the podium yelled out how if he was elected President by the student body, he would "... tear down their altars and the false idols from the high places!", to which Charlie Brown commented that the school Principal 's face had just turned white.
Of course Linus was in expectation of the Great Pumpkin, who would rise from the pumpkin patch, and bring toys to all the good little boys and girls.
You know .... it it's not one thing ..... it's another.
...it's always somethin'.

Others have commented on this before, but nowhere in the Bible, not even one time does Jehovah God prohibit or restrict cannibalism. That’s right ……. but if you’re already dead, presumably of war wounds. 
 
People are more important than worms and bugs.
 

Probably the same reason that when Donald Duck and his three nephews Hewey, Dewey and Lewey sit down for a traditional Thanksgiving Dinner, somehow the conversation always turns to the moral and legal considerations of cannibalism.
All in that almost unintelligible cartoon duck voice, of course.

The United States of America has in the past 8 months transitioned from "The land of the free and home of the brave", to petulent, insane and demented brain dead Zombie precursors where every public statement is a lie, or a damned lie, and they are printing money without any value whatsoever far beyond the ability of all the drunken sailors that have lived since the beginning of time to spend (at least they were spending their OWN money ....).
Since the Taliban now has a 3/4 trillion dollar Air Force (Build Back Better), it would be treason to let any real truth escape to Europe, currently being overrun by Muslims, or Asia, currently being overrun by Muslims.
It is suspected that after the Taliban decapitates all the civilian populations, the heads will be frozen and shipped to America, traded for atomic weapons, so that the Political Class may have something to eat.
...hope I cleared that up for you ......
 

Pudgy, what are you hiding ?  You hide behind all this rubbish you write and it seems you are afraid to actually be human. 
So, are you JTR Jnr, or are you just another of Tom's silly games ??? 
Either way you act very immature and make pointless comments. But no wait, of course they are not pointless. They have a purpose. Their purpose is in line with the GB's purpose. That is, to take people away from TRUTH. You try to sidetrack just as the GB does. You pretend to be a dog, whilst the GB pretend to be the F&DS.