Pudgy

Of course. “You can’t always get what you want,” as someone recently drummed to. Nobody gets everything his way. There are things about the earthly organization that are not as I would prefer. 
But the choice is not now, nor has ever been, between the people who are tacking this way and that and the people who are sailing straight and true without deviation. The choice is between the people who are tacking this way and that and the people who have sailed off the edge of the earth. The key tenets: no immortal soul, no trinity, use God’s name, kingdom a real government, everlasting life on earth, why God permits evil, exactly how the ransom works, what happens to the dead, preserved nowhere except in the realm where the GB presides—that has to make an impression with anyone in whom love of truth resides. 
I’m struck with how when people leave Jehovah’s organized worship, they never ever mention these tenets again. The very factors that drew them into the faith are now dismissed as though of no importance. It certainly is true of detractors here who would draw people away. The blemishes of humans taking the lead are drawn out, exaggerated, or even make up, as though they did not all have their counterparts among the first century apostles and presbyrs. Press the detractors for where they would have you go instead and they clam up. They have nothing to offer.
In the case of those who still believe in God, it is back to the land of churches, where in time, the bland junk food will reassert itself: All roads lead to heaven, God works in mysterious ;ways, Death of a child is because God needs another flower in heaven. How is that not like the dog returning to his own vomit?
in the case of those who have gone the atheist route, it is like a market crash where millions are transformed into hundreds. “Ah, well, they were only paper gains anyway,” says the spiritual dullard giving up on everlasting life to go celebrate the hundreds he still has left. 
It is no good harping on the blemishes of others, real, imagined, or enhanced. The enemy in the West wants exactly what the enemy in the East wants—to separate Witnesses from their organization, with the confidence that they can be more easily assimilated that way. The only difference between them is the difference between the good cop who would coo at you and the bad cop who would beat you. They want the same. Should you acknowledge the blemishes of fellow believers  it nonetheless does not change the overall picture. It fits right in with how things were in the first century, where they also had blemishes. It’s how imperfect people are.
Pray to God that he fix your personal woes and beefs and he will respond that he has underlings who can handle the job. It is enough that he will listen to you and provide nourishment night and day. Complain to him that the underlings are imperfect and he will observe that you are no great shakes yourself—you will just have to learn to make do.
 

Don't abuse animals, or else Swedish Jesus will come to your house riding a giant dress shoe and close a car trunk on your head, punch you and punish you in various ways. Is this your reply?  

Now that you mention it, Uncle Donald sitting with his nephews would be wise to have this conversation being that on this occasion of once yearly, these bird's are in fact eating other bird's in the traditional manner of Thanksgiving dinners here in the U.S., otherwise the cognitive dissonance his three nephews Hewey, Dewey and Lewey would most likely be having to deal with would obviously be a fowl experience for them.
This too makes sense. 

I believe it was Linus, of the comic strip "Peanuts", running for Class President, who in his school auditorium got up on the stage, and behind the podium yelled out how if he was elected President by the student body, he would "... tear down their altars and the false idols from the high places!", to which Charlie Brown commented that the school Principal 's face had just turned white.
Of course Linus was in expectation of the Great Pumpkin, who would rise from the pumpkin patch, and bring toys to all the good little boys and girls.
You know .... it it's not one thing ..... it's another.
...it's always somethin'.

A rough parallel is dogs .... The Disney Character Pluto is Mickey Mouse's dog, and he walks on four legs and has a tail as thin as a clothes line, a collar, and makes normal dog sounds.
Another Disney Character is a dog, wears clothes, and a vest, and walks around on two legs, and can talk just as good as Mickey Mouse.
....and that's just Goofy!
So, which one is lying?
I suspect rules are different if you live in a two-dimensional world, of paper.
..... tell me about it !

The United States of America has in the past 8 months transitioned from "The land of the free and home of the brave", to petulent, insane and demented brain dead Zombie precursors where every public statement is a lie, or a damned lie, and they are printing money without any value whatsoever far beyond the ability of all the drunken sailors that have lived since the beginning of time to spend (at least they were spending their OWN money ....).
Since the Taliban now has a 3/4 trillion dollar Air Force (Build Back Better), it would be treason to let any real truth escape to Europe, currently being overrun by Muslims, or Asia, currently being overrun by Muslims.
It is suspected that after the Taliban decapitates all the civilian populations, the heads will be frozen and shipped to America, traded for atomic weapons, so that the Political Class may have something to eat.
...hope I cleared that up for you ......
 

The United States of America has in the past 8 months transitioned from "The land of the free and home of the brave", to petulent, insane and demented brain dead Zombie precursors where every public statement is a lie, or a damned lie, and they are printing money without any value whatsoever far beyond the ability of all the drunken sailors that have lived since the beginning of time to spend (at least they were spending their OWN money ....).
Since the Taliban now has a 3/4 trillion dollar Air Force (Build Back Better), it would be treason to let any real truth escape to Europe, currently being overrun by Muslims, or Asia, currently being overrun by Muslims.
It is suspected that after the Taliban decapitates all the civilian populations, the heads will be frozen and shipped to America, traded for atomic weapons, so that the Political Class may have something to eat.
...hope I cleared that up for you ......
 

A rough parallel is dogs .... The Disney Character Pluto is Mickey Mouse's dog, and he walks on four legs and has a tail as thin as a clothes line, a collar, and makes normal dog sounds.
Another Disney Character is a dog, wears clothes, and a vest, and walks around on two legs, and can talk just as good as Mickey Mouse.
....and that's just Goofy!
So, which one is lying?
I suspect rules are different if you live in a two-dimensional world, of paper.
..... tell me about it !

This is for sure one way how to deal with wicked persons. People's (and animals) life and health must be protected. 
Are secular courts have no right to be entitled? Well, if so, then you ask or advice us to be independent in/about in determining, at one's own discretion, when one is allowed to lie and deceive institutions that are "appointed by God" to maintain order in human society. This is done by JW lawyers in the courts of "Western democracy".
If a JW member has the right to do so to “worldly persons,” what guarantee do you give that he/she will not do the same to his own JW members of the assembly or to elders? Because that’s a practice that’s common in WTJWorg. People keep things quiet or even lie about the facts. And, JW people are still people like everyone else, right?
So, i would say, the example you gave is justified. But if so, then this is true for all people and in all situations for which an individual deems it justified to lie. If there are exceptions in which we may lie or misrepresent facts, then you (JW people) are no different from “secular people” who have the same kind of argumentation about their actions.
Lying for "the truth" is allowed, and lying for a "lie" is not allowed.    So, Pilate was not mad after all when he asked Jesus, What is the Truth? 
What will be "the truth" when JW lawyer open his mouth? 

Withholding information from people who are not entiteled to it is not lying. For example, would you tell someone who wants to harm your family, where your family is hiding? I am sure you would not. You may even purposefully send them in the opposite direction. 

The United States of America has in the past 8 months transitioned from "The land of the free and home of the brave", to petulent, insane and demented brain dead Zombie precursors where every public statement is a lie, or a damned lie, and they are printing money without any value whatsoever far beyond the ability of all the drunken sailors that have lived since the beginning of time to spend (at least they were spending their OWN money ....).
Since the Taliban now has a 3/4 trillion dollar Air Force (Build Back Better), it would be treason to let any real truth escape to Europe, currently being overrun by Muslims, or Asia, currently being overrun by Muslims.
It is suspected that after the Taliban decapitates all the civilian populations, the heads will be frozen and shipped to America, traded for atomic weapons, so that the Political Class may have something to eat.
...hope I cleared that up for you ......
 

And responded to like a person who doesn't take counsel.
"A man repeatedly reproved but making his neck hard will suddenly be broken, and that without healing." - Proverbs 29:1

Ok. I am the army for (by) myself and every other individual is army for itself (himself). That is battle between lie and truth inside us. This sort of war we have to fight. Alone (by myself)..... always alone (by myself).

You cannot fight a war with the army you want ... you have to fight a war with the army you have.
This is particularly true with Leadership ... and Leaders become Leaders for all sorts of reasons, just as men become soldiers for all sorts of reasons,
Classic example of "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"
The Polish soldiers fought the Nazi Panzer tanks with horse drawn artillery, and were slaughtered, and Poland was lost to the Third Reich.
It is not a surprise, or even unusual in any way that Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body has elements of hubris, incompetency, and self aggrandizement that permeates ANY effective Military Organization Officers' Corps, especially at the General Staff level.  Such is the curse of all men.
There are no exceptions in ANY Organization of more than, say 200 people ...... get used to the idea, or pick at your scabs until they turn cancerous.
They have a habit of going overboard in trying to establish discipline and consolidate their authority ..... we have a habit of resisting discipline, thereby undermining their authority.  Anytime three people interact there will be politics, and a jockeying for advantage. Internal politics must be a drama to see.
Interestingly enough, in the United States, it is not considered cruel and unusual punishment to impose the death penalty for crimes, but it IS considered cruel and unusual punishment to deny a person their Citizenship.
There are basic human rights that we have as a natural consequence of being human ... and although disfellowshipping is an absolute necessity in any society.... HOW it is done defines whether or not it is necessary protection of that Society, or is just an exercise in cruelty "... because one can".
There is nothing whatsoever in Christian Tenets that justify cruelty.
A lesson most of us learn too late ... just because we can do something, does not mean we should.
 

I have often pondered that Jehovah God had expressed a particular fondness for humans, and no stated preference for dogs.
Perhaps in the New System, after the thousand year training and final exam, or perhaps even sometime before that (?) and "New Scrolls" are opened, perhaps we will learn that there is a plan, and perhaps has always been a plan, for a "Rainbow Bridge", where we wait for our Guardians to be resurrected, and be with us once again.
Like so many things discussed here .... the CORRECT answer is "I don't know."
It seems like a hint is that Jehovah knows our Guardians' limitations, and seems to have tolerated a tremendous amount of grievous error of his "Organization" back in the era of King David, et al.
Incredible amounts of grievous error!
Think of all the many thousands of Jews that fought in Jehovah's sanctioned and approved wars, who EVEN THOUGH JEHOVAH WAS WITH THEM ... they were slaughtered on the battlefields of those times. Jehovah COULD have preserved and protected each one of them, but he did not.
Why Not?
ANSWER: Because "Stuff Happens".
....... get used to it.

...seems pretty clear to me ....

You cannot fight a war with the army you want ... you have to fight a war with the army you have.
This is particularly true with Leadership ... and Leaders become Leaders for all sorts of reasons, just as men become soldiers for all sorts of reasons,
Classic example of "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"
The Polish soldiers fought the Nazi Panzer tanks with horse drawn artillery, and were slaughtered, and Poland was lost to the Third Reich.
It is not a surprise, or even unusual in any way that Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body has elements of hubris, incompetency, and self aggrandizement that permeates ANY effective Military Organization Officers' Corps, especially at the General Staff level.  Such is the curse of all men.
There are no exceptions in ANY Organization of more than, say 200 people ...... get used to the idea, or pick at your scabs until they turn cancerous.
They have a habit of going overboard in trying to establish discipline and consolidate their authority ..... we have a habit of resisting discipline, thereby undermining their authority.  Anytime three people interact there will be politics, and a jockeying for advantage. Internal politics must be a drama to see.
Interestingly enough, in the United States, it is not considered cruel and unusual punishment to impose the death penalty for crimes, but it IS considered cruel and unusual punishment to deny a person their Citizenship.
There are basic human rights that we have as a natural consequence of being human ... and although disfellowshipping is an absolute necessity in any society.... HOW it is done defines whether or not it is necessary protection of that Society, or is just an exercise in cruelty "... because one can".
There is nothing whatsoever in Christian Tenets that justify cruelty.
A lesson most of us learn too late ... just because we can do something, does not mean we should.
 

Although I agree with your principle here, the Scripture directly contradicts you. Apparently David's son was normal before being stricken with fatal sickness.
 

You cannot fight a war with the army you want ... you have to fight a war with the army you have.
This is particularly true with Leadership ... and Leaders become Leaders for all sorts of reasons, just as men become soldiers for all sorts of reasons,
Classic example of "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"
The Polish soldiers fought the Nazi Panzer tanks with horse drawn artillery, and were slaughtered, and Poland was lost to the Third Reich.
It is not a surprise, or even unusual in any way that Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body has elements of hubris, incompetency, and self aggrandizement that permeates ANY effective Military Organization Officers' Corps, especially at the General Staff level.  Such is the curse of all men.
There are no exceptions in ANY Organization of more than, say 200 people ...... get used to the idea, or pick at your scabs until they turn cancerous.
They have a habit of going overboard in trying to establish discipline and consolidate their authority ..... we have a habit of resisting discipline, thereby undermining their authority.  Anytime three people interact there will be politics, and a jockeying for advantage. Internal politics must be a drama to see.
Interestingly enough, in the United States, it is not considered cruel and unusual punishment to impose the death penalty for crimes, but it IS considered cruel and unusual punishment to deny a person their Citizenship.
There are basic human rights that we have as a natural consequence of being human ... and although disfellowshipping is an absolute necessity in any society.... HOW it is done defines whether or not it is necessary protection of that Society, or is just an exercise in cruelty "... because one can".
There is nothing whatsoever in Christian Tenets that justify cruelty.
A lesson most of us learn too late ... just because we can do something, does not mean we should.
 

...seems pretty clear to me ....

Although I agree with your principle here, the Scripture directly contradicts you. Apparently David's son was normal before being stricken with fatal sickness.
 

Well, Witness ....
By not being able to recommend something better, you are like a handheld GPS with no batteries.
... useless.
 

That is a good thought, but probably very simplistic .... opposers, like everybody else, do what they know.
There is the drunk to whom the determination to drink supersedes all else, and blames the Organization for the consequences come with that, and
There is the drunk who hangs onto the Organization because he has seen the consequences of stumbling, and realizes that with all their deficiencies, they are less than his own.
... of course, there is no shortage of drunks, or reasons to be one....
... nor shortage of opposers, or reasons to be one.
Reminds me of the man who was trapped on an island in the middle of a river. He prayed to God to save him, as the waters got higher and higher, and he started climbing a tree.
A Fire Department rescue boat came by, but the Captain was an ugly midget, so the man waved them off.
Next a helicopter hovered overhead, and lowered a cable with a rescue ring, but the ring swung into his face head and hit him, man held onto the tree, as so far the water was only to his waist.
As the water rose and the current bent the tree over, it finally dawned on him he was about to die and he prayed "Oh God!, I am going to die, why did you not save me?"
... and God answered, " I heard your prayers, and I sent a boat and a helicopter .... you did not like either one."
 

Not really. Some people just get more discipline than others. If you know anything, you know that no one gets DF'ed for doing anything. They get DF'ed for their attitude about what they're doing. If you don't cop an attitude, you generally don't get DF'ed. Now it's true that you can look at a person's behavior and intuit the attitude especially if they keep repeating the thing that got them disciplinary attention to begin with. Some people need something sterner to get their attention. But no one's been weeded. These can still stay in the garden, they just don't have all the privileges they had formerly. The "weeding" is what people do to themselves when they leave permanently. Are they leaving to a better, more correct group of Christians, or just a group who'll tolerate all manner of bad behavior? Or, and this is what some do, they become atheists or agnostics in a sense saying "If God doesn't present himself in a way I understand and approve of, I'll just wave my hands and he'll cease to exist." Yes, it is their job to shepherd the flock and yes it means to watch out for malcontents and others who'd want people to go astray. (This is the problem I see in Christendom in general) More denominations SHOULD disfellowship their members. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. Now you can argue that the way some handle their associations w/DF'd ones isn't something handled well at times and you'd be right, but that's going to happen w/everything that humans are involved with. They are going to get it wrong. Family members have to take responsibility for the way they handle members of their own family and others who are DF'ed - there are going to be some who minimize the discipline and they have to deal with that (and I've seen that they do...eventually).
Issues w/CSA and these other things have been examined by others outside as well as inside and adjustments have been made, but no....it's not perfect and never will be, but when this organization is contrasted w/others there isn't a better organization I'm aware of doctrinally or practice-wise with which one might associate.
Do I believe every recent interpretation or other older interpretations which have come down the pike? No. And I don't teach any of those things as facts, but as interpretations. The facts are clear and these are what can be clearly pointed to in scripture - the rest is speculation and there is and has always been organizational speculation as well as private and personal speculation. Does this mean that Jehovah isn't in control and directing things? No.

I have often pondered that Jehovah God had expressed a particular fondness for humans, and no stated preference for dogs.
Perhaps in the New System, after the thousand year training and final exam, or perhaps even sometime before that (?) and "New Scrolls" are opened, perhaps we will learn that there is a plan, and perhaps has always been a plan, for a "Rainbow Bridge", where we wait for our Guardians to be resurrected, and be with us once again.
Like so many things discussed here .... the CORRECT answer is "I don't know."
It seems like a hint is that Jehovah knows our Guardians' limitations, and seems to have tolerated a tremendous amount of grievous error of his "Organization" back in the era of King David, et al.
Incredible amounts of grievous error!
Think of all the many thousands of Jews that fought in Jehovah's sanctioned and approved wars, who EVEN THOUGH JEHOVAH WAS WITH THEM ... they were slaughtered on the battlefields of those times. Jehovah COULD have preserved and protected each one of them, but he did not.
Why Not?
ANSWER: Because "Stuff Happens".
....... get used to it.