Pudgy

So you are admitting that it is men chosing men. And none of them have any proof of being anointed either.
No Holy Spirit involved there then. 
You JWs really do not like true scripture do you ?  10 men clinging to the robe of a JEW. 
Acts 2 16 - 18.
On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
Now, doesn't the Watchtower / JW Org say we are 'in the last days' ? 

No, that is not problem, really  it is not.
So many others in Bible times were wrong, is not good way to excuse yourself (myself, etc) for wrongs, errors we made. Justify one's own mistakes with a general truth like this; that we all make mistakes, is not the right way. To make justification in fact. Because, when we make a mistake, then we need to admit the mistake, correct the mistake and ask for forgiveness. I am sure you will agree. 

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic.
Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly 12   The 12 tribes of Israel were actually 12, not 13   The Levitical priesthood was organized in a multiple of 12, namely 24 divisions (1Chr 24: 1-19)   The recruitment of assistants and officers who served David were organized in groups of 24,000 per month, from the 12 tribes, giving a total of 288,000 soldiers. All multiples of 12, and all exact numbers, real and non-symbolic.   Also, Jesus literally chooses 12 apostles, as we know. Literally.   The following is very interesting, in my opinion. When there were only 11 faithful apostles alive, just before Pentecost, they prayed intensely to Jehovah for guidance during those days (Acts 1:14), as a result of which, it was for divine guidance that they chose a twelfth apostle again, thus when Spiritual Israel began at Pentecost there were literally 12 foundations.   And, precisely at Pentecost, how many were gathered when the nucleus of the anointed ones who would go to heaven was formed? 120. Another multiple of 12 (Acts 1:15) It is true that in Revelation numbers like 3, 4, 6, 7, 10 are symbolic. But I have my reservations for 12 or 144,000 as symbolics.
Indeed, if 144,000 is symbolic, many things are fixed, as has already been said: the large number of Christians during the past 20 centuries who will easily have exceeded that number. The problem of replacement anointed ones, and I suppose others that now escape me.
The best answer I can give is: I'm not sure, I don't know.

Okay, but I ask, where is love for neighbor with this doctrine, a doctrine that for those who may not be like you, but totally embrace this timetable? Where is your love for your neighboring JWs?   This date is at the root of the organization’s teachings, and is a source of disfellowshipping for many who reject it.  Perhaps that is why you may be keeping your opinion to yourself? (Prov 29:25; Mark 10:29,30)
I just heard a video clip that stated a document was prepared by the Chairman’s Committee of the GB, to change the date of 1914 to 1957.  Ray Franz comments on this document he was holding in the video:
"Now, in this document, they suggest and advances an idea, that uh, the generation that would see the time of the end of all things should not be counted from 1914.  They fix on Jesus’ statement that there would be signs in the heavens, and so they suggest here that the date should be moved up to 1957, when the Sputnik was sent into space by the Russians, and they say, now this is the celestial phenomena that would indicate the generation that would see the final” (I didn’t catch the last word).
It seems that this “Sputnik” idea was even brought out on this forum since I've been a member.  Someone can correct me on that.
So, there you go.  If the doctrine of 1914 was correct, well established by the “slave” under the guidance of Jesus Christ, there would be no reason to consider moving the date.  There would be no need for David Splane to twist and turn the dates of Fred Franz’s birth and baptism…to make a new understanding of a date...they are too cowardly to admit is a lie. 
And yet, it is a tool used to kick people to the curb, and why?  To save the face of men who have no pity for the damage they have done, to the lives of millions over the years. 
Differing weights and varying measures—
both are detestable to the Lord.  Prov 20:10
Their hypocrisy should be detestable to us also.
Have they proven to be “faithful and discreet”?  The word translated as “discreet”, actually has, as its definition…“wise”.  Matt 24:48-51
There is no love for neighbor, no truth, no wisdom, no insight in the doctrine of 1914. 
Yet, this date characterizes the organization that you belong to.
"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:17,18
 
 
 
 

I know you are being sarcastic, but if anything changed, then it wouldn't be for the first time, you know that. And really, it is not a fundamental problem whether the number is literal or not, (even though I said it could solve the problem of increasing partakers, as you say, it could be because some have dropped out etc.. ) Ultimately God knows the correct interpretation, we can only do our best to understand it, and we can be wrong, as so many others in Bible times were. I am not worrying about it.

Could it be that only mentally unbalanced or competitive people find themselves obsessed with who is or isn't anointed? The recent video made it clear that this is an internal decision by an individual and that there's no objective way for anyone to know if someone is or isn't anointed. The minimal behavioral conduct required to be considered "Christian" is clear from scripture and we can all look at someone and see if the behavior we can observe is in line w/scripture. On the other hand we don't have body cams and recordings from a persons mind or anything like this so we can know 24x7 whether they're OK.
It seems all the worrying of this bone is about organization. Does Jehovah use this organization known as JW's?
You decide as an individual. If Jehovah chooses to NOT use it, you'll know. No one needs a bunch of whiners to look for unscriptural lint left in the washing machine to know whether the clothes cleaner still has cleaned the clothes to a usable degree.
Ok. You can go back to nit picking.

It would also resolve the issue of there having been more than a million partakers who faced death for their Christian faith rather than give a pinch of incense to the Roman emperor, or contaminate their conscience with other forms of idolatry or blood. It's either that or explicitly allow for the idea that an earthly hope had been opened up generally to Christians before 1935.

I have wondered about that too, for the same reason. If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year. I would not be surprise if it was dropped one day....

True. I've made that very clear many times. I think of this site as a place to discuss various opinions and concerns about various Watchtower doctrines. After much prayer and study and meditation, I even find myself in disagreement with almost all of our chronology-related doctrines. Of course, at last count, I also find myself completely agreeing with about 95% of the Watchtower's other doctrines. (It's closer to 98.6% when using the list of all the different baptismal questions that have been used since 1967, when I was baptized.) So I have no problem discussing the 5% that I question.
What happened to your three posts about Russell? It looks like you deleted those posts and a couple of others under this topic that other persons here had already answered. For a minute there, I assumed you actually went back and looked up some of those Russell quotes and realized that you needed to remove your own posts. But that didn't sound very much like you at all! LOL!

See the deal is 1. Jehovah is using at least 1 org 2. Instructions are coming from this org 3. The instructions are scriptural
Whether someone is wearing a magic beanie is immaterial. Now if they come up w/some new junk and it's not in the Bible, I had better see some Moses-like Miracles performed and the new junk better harmonize w/the previous junk.
Man do people geek-out on this. Do you imagine Jesus would do this? Or ANY of the apostles?

I saw the movie "Braveheart" .... there is a lot to be said for living a dull, slow, unremarkable life ...., uh .... as opposed to being drawn and quartered.

I saw the movie "Braveheart" .... there is a lot to be said for living a dull, slow, unremarkable life ...., uh .... as opposed to being drawn and quartered.

1.)   About 350 years ago, Sir Isaac Newton knew that there were two classes ... those of the "heavenly hope", and those of the "great crowd".
2.) Jehovah's Witnesses figured it out about 86 years ago.
 
 

Maybe Sir Isaac Newton was anointed.

1.)   About 350 years ago, Sir Isaac Newton knew that there were two classes ... those of the "heavenly hope", and those of the "great crowd".
2.) Jehovah's Witnesses figured it out about 86 years ago.
 
 

I've been feeling weird of late w/regard to prayers. I'm praying, like Jesus told me, to the Father. I ask him and talk to him on the basis of Jesus and his office as high priest and king, however if prayer is respectful speech to God, then what is respectful speech to Jesus? Am I not supposed to talk to him? All authority is given him in heaven and on earth by Jehovah, so recently I've been feeling that I'm treating Jesus like a simple messenger and go-between, which he certainly IS as a mediator, but not at all simple. But am I not allowed to talk to him? Is he not my Lord and Savior? I talk to the brothers. I listen to them. They give advice (mostly biblical) but it seems I never talk to Jesus, but always past him or through him. Of course Christendom flips this around and never talks to Jehovah, or confuses Jesus w/Jehovah or the trinity.
Anyway...I'm just thinking aloud.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20150101/should-we-pray-to-jesus/
It just feels wrong to not talk to your Lord and Savior.

@Ray DevereauxHi! Are you "paid" for giving people down vote :)) ... and not participating in exposing yourself with comments to explain your reasoning on topic and your arguments. Please, confront yourself with others through dialogue.    

From the context it seems that the 11 +1 apostles were meeting in Jerusalem to devote themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word. This is probably a reference to the necessary spiritual preparation the apostles needed to focus on for producing the foundation of teaching we now find in the Christian Greek Scriptures. This was the priority so soon after Jesus was resurrected because Jesus had asked them to meet together in Jerusalem, at least until the holy spirit opened up their understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures, and who knew how long it would be before they would be persecuted and even killed:
(Luke 24:45-49) 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47 and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. 48 You are to be witnesses of these things. 49 And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
(Acts 1:4) . . .While he was meeting with them, he ordered them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;
But shortly after the spirit was poured out upon them, and upon many other women and men among the Christians (Acts 2) there was a problem with Jewish prejudice against non-Jewish Christians. The Greek-speaking Christians were being overlooked (ignored) when it came to sharing the supplies of physical food among them. (Some Jews even assumed that this prejudice was Scriptural.)
So the apostles were still devoting themselves to prayer and teaching and didn't have the time at that moment to manage the distribution of food. They needed some capable ministerial servants or "deacons" for this purpose.
(Acts 6:2-4) . . .So the Twelve called the multitude of the disciples together and said: “It is not right for us to leave the word of God to distribute food to tables (literally, to be deacons for tables: διακονεῖν-diakonein). 3 So, brothers, select for yourselves seven reputable men from among you, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary matter; 4 but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
So the 12 apostles needed some "deacons" (ministerial servants) to manage the daily food distributions. But these deacons were well qualified in that they were filled with the recently poured out holy spirit. They had already gained the respect of the multitude of Christians through their actions and ability to teach. It shows, that like in 1 Timothy, deacons were to have almost the same qualifications as elders, but elders had more of the teaching responsibilities.
(1 Timothy 3:8-13) . . .Ministerial servants [Greek: "deacons"] should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience. 10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first; then let them serve as ministers [Greek: "deacons"], as they are free from accusation. 11 ... 13 For the men who minister [Gk: "are deacons"] in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Reminds me of the brothers who studied w/me. This one brother would bonk me on the head w/his bible when I went on a rant. At other times he say the angels were running around in front of my mouth trying to throw some salt on the words coming out of my mouth.
Not surprising that it happened occasionally that when a HH brought up something designedly antagonistic, I've said a few times "Are you asking because you really want to know, or are just trying to start something?"

I will treat you as I would treat any other sick person @César Chávez by ignoring your ramblings, but still listening to you to see if you have anything interesting to say. 
Anyone on this forum that blocks others is only creating loss for themselves, by cutting off anything that the other person may say that could be of relevance.  
I think you live in a dream world CC. I don't think you are a true JW at all. I do think you are dangerous and should probably be investigated yourself by the Feds or someone. However. Have a good day.  

Right. It's all been wheat and weeds until the angels start reaping. Of course YOU as an individual absolutely are judged if you don't try your best to follow and admit to following your God given conscience. Lets take a Catholic who is sincere. He could sincerely be wrong (or right), but if wrong the scriptures say he will be beaten with fewer strokes. "48  But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. " - Luke 12:48.
So take me. I absolutely know that God exists. I absolutely know that the Bible is the word of God. I absolutely know God is NOT a trinity, that there is no immortal soul, that hell is NOT a place of eternal torment. I know that fornication is wrong, along with homosexuality, murder and a number of other things. If I go to some church or synagogue or mosque or whatever and these people are teaching these lies and even doing a lot of these immoral things, then I'm willfully placing myself is a bad situation and I deserve whatever beatings come my way, even annihilation. (never mind that the only thing that's lawful for me is for me to be dead as I'm a sinner and have absolutely no right to life).
Of course I don't say ANY are good. Jesus himself said no one was good but God. So by that none are "good". But I know that's not what you're after here. But you do correctly get that there are in fact nominal Christians and some call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses and they aren't "good" or even "right". However I suspect that these are quite few and inconsistent if these are bad as it's pretty darn hard to keep evil under wraps for long. The truth is that anyone who is obviously evil can't keep that to himself for long.
Looking at JW's and asking if there is or are incentives to doing wrong, or promulgating falsehoods, you'd be hard pressed as it's easier to do this as an independent baptist, or non-denominational sort of person.
Have JW's gotten things wrong? Yes. What things are wrong now? You decide. How would you go about "weeding" even though it's not your job to do that? Show me scriptures which show that true Christians are going to get it right and get it right all the time. You can't because those scriptures don't exist.
We have a lot of people who get hung up on this or that piddly minnow of a fault which to them is like sand in their eye, and sure! A grain of sand in your eye can hurt. Until you get it out. Sometimes you realize that YOU put that sand grain in your own darn eye and blamed the organization that it didn't make it impossible for grains of sand to exist. When you do, you realize that maybe if you'd done something differently you wouldn't have gone down the path you went down, and now you have to figure out how to get back. Question is - are you humble enough to do it?
So yeah. Wheat and Weeds. Doesn't mean that no organization isn't better than or used more by Jehovah than another, because I think JW's do a pretty good job even though they do have grains of sand flying here and there and the more you know about the scriptures head-wise the more you know that people have a lot of ideas in their heads that just aint so scripturally. But the question is, "Did Jehovah pick you or me to straighten everyone out?" - probably not. Sometimes it's right to be wrong or even let yourself be wronged to keep the peace. (as annoying as that might be).
I think conscience is a thing people feel they need to share with everyone, like a bumper sticker. It isn't. Your conscience is your own. The organization doesn't ask that you abandon your conscience even though some might say that if they can't blurt out every idea they have at the Watchtower Study w/o self-censoring then they aren't "free" and the organization is censoring and crushing their conscience. Is it? Do you insist that everyone must share your thoughts? Didn't the scriptures say that if you keep asking and knocking it will be opened "TO YOU"? So why do you insist that others MUST look at and see everything that you in your own peculiar way have decided is an improvement on scriptural understanding?
This is a defect of opposers, though they don't see it that way. They don't get that IF Jehovah has shared some awesome little secret w/them then maybe they should keep it to themselves. Maybe it isn't an awesome little secret and maybe it's not Jehovah who has shared this delicacy w/them. Maybe it's just them being weird.
Always good to "not think more of yourself than is necessary to think".

Your illustration tells me this: Democrats, Republicans, Russellites, Rutherfords, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, etc. - - they were all good and bad and they are like that today.

Blocking you forever.

That might be a scream, those girls might have gone to a evil college.