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Pudgy

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  1. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Srecko Sostar in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    You chose a good verse. He dissolved the Judicial Committee and the executioners (stoning) with a few calm words. Under Jewish law and this law in the JW Congregation, adultery is a “gross sin” and cannot pass without the intervention of elders. Jesus showed that the elders and members of the Jew Congregation in this case have nothing to do and/or deal with her affairs.
  2. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to TrueTomHarley in IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion   
    What did Jesus do when he was “disrespected?”
    How insistent was Jesus on proving himself right?
    Even were I to take this as an insult, which appears the way you intend it, how many times did Jesus say to Peter (after 3 times denying him) “The one that should be ashamed is you, ex-disciple!”
    I mean really, CC. If you want people to believe that you are a Witness, you should act like one.
  3. Haha
    Pudgy reacted to Matthew9969 in US House of Representatives set to vote on the Equality Act next week   
    Soon you'll be able to marry anyone or any thing you want. If you marry a plate of sushi then eat it, would you be guilty of canniblism?
  4. Like
    Pudgy reacted to xero in WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"   
    I don't believe in a "we" when it comes to taking responsibility for "my" moral decisions. There is no end to the deflections which I or anyone else might latch on to committed by others, but is this getting you anywhere?
    I'll tell you, you don't have to be an expert to find out what's wrong or supposedly wrong with anything. Anyone w/half a brain just googles and gets all the garbage he might ever want to sift through. So unless you're trying to monetize this line of complaining, I don't see the point. It's not like anyone has the scoop.
  5. Like
    Pudgy reacted to xero in WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"   
    I don't think you're a bad example. I find your posts encouraging and I'm sure a lot of other people here do. I think some of the "complainers" may just be working out their own demons, or I hope they are. Jehovah knows we cause most of our problems just fine all by ourselves.
  6. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Revelation Chapter One. Well I do say I don't understand scripture. Help please   
    I have read Revelation many times. We 'studied' that Revelation book at least three times in the 'ye olde book study' of a Tuesday evening. But i think that book has been d/fed now .
    I'm now trying to read the Greek Scriptures, word for word, not rushing through. I don't expect to understand much because I'm not Anointed, but reading scripture is relaxing and does help me to reason on life and living. 
  7. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Revelation Chapter One. Well I do say I don't understand scripture. Help please   
    I've just started reading Revelation. This time I'm trying to concentrate on every word. 
    An old, wise, Elder once said to me, "Every thing in the Bible is there for a reson. It's not just to take up space". 
    Revelation chapter One. v5 & 6
    To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6  and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
    So this is to the Anointed ones.
    v 7 & 8....  Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.  Yes, Amen.8  “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
    Now this confuses me a bit. Verse 7 is talking about Jesus. It says He is coming with the clouds. 
    But verse 8 is talking about GOD, and it says 'and who is coming'.    
    So, are they both coming ? If so how ?
    Also verse 8 says, “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God" which is fully understandable as Almighty God has always existed and always will. 
    But verse 17 says, "And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 
    And this is Jesus speaking 
    So God is the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus is the First and the Last.  This will need some explaining. 
    I've said that i understand the bit about God, but I'm not sure about the bit concerning Jesus
    Jesus was of course God's First creation.....   But in what way is Jesus the Last ? 
  8. Upvote
  9. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"   
    Why on Earth would the GB suddenly decide that ONLYTHEY are the Faithful and discreet Slave ? When the teaching was that ALL ANOINTED ONES were the Faithful and discreet Slave
    Why on Earth would the GB then say that the Anointed SHOULD NOT GATHER TOGETHER as it would be WORKING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT ?  
    Why ? Well I think it shows jealousy or fear on the part of the GB and maybe others too. 
  10. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Anna in Kingdom Illustrations - Fulfilled, Undergoing Fulfillment, Waiting to be Fulfilled   
    Yes, it seems like it. Not sure what your point is though 😀
  11. Like
    Pudgy reacted to xero in Kingdom Illustrations - Fulfilled, Undergoing Fulfillment, Waiting to be Fulfilled   
    Just engaging in the same kind of thinking some of the CO's I've had private conversations with, when they were making points not yet made (yet).
    I've had to be careful. I was reading the scriptures about asking, knocking, and seeking and persisting in this. The answers you may get may not be ripe for prime time (they could be wrong too). I try not to ask/knock/seek FOR other people (but here I'm doing it anyway by discussing this)
    But...It could be then, that since the wheat and the weeds are still growing together one would hardly expect perfection anywhere. Anywhere.
  12. Haha
    Pudgy reacted to TrueTomHarley in A question I always ask of the evangelical sorts (political, religious, anti-religious, environmental, whatever the cause)   
    This reminds me of what the widow of the Doctor Seuss books said. He had vehemently resisted commercialization of his work during his life, but as soon as he died he was outmaneuvered. “If Ted could see this he’d say, “I’m glad I’m dead,” she said.  
  13. Like
    Pudgy reacted to TrueTomHarley in A question I always ask of the evangelical sorts (political, religious, anti-religious, environmental, whatever the cause)   
    I like this question. It is a variation of “If you could solve any problem of the world, which one would it be?” It is given more import in that you ask it when people actually are trying to solve one of them. I like it a lot, as well as the logical followup: Given that we have only so much time, where do we get the most bang for our buck?
  14. Like
    Pudgy reacted to xero in A question I always ask of the evangelical sorts (political, religious, anti-religious, environmental, whatever the cause)   
    Nothing to be confused about. People have scare time and resources. They allocate these by a process of reasoning. These should be able to explain the rational process whereby the decided to expend their energies in one place over another. This is especially so if they are evangelical in their zeal.
    Connecting the dots.
    The phone rings. You pick it up. On the end of the phone there's a solicitor who (we'll give the benefit of the doubt) is representing a cause of some kind. Let's say we even think it's not a bad cause. Our response might be.
    "I'd like to thank you, 1st of all for choosing to be part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem. So many are unwilling to give of themselves these days."
    *Pause as they blush*
    Then follow this up w/the question. They should be able to answer this question.
    As JW's it's an easy thing. The kingdom is the solution. Man's govts as well intended as some have been have always failed to deliver in one way or another. Death is still there. Justice is not punishment, but the complete repair of the wrong done. Choosing to learn about the kingdom and subjecting ones' self in advance of it's takeover is a benefit now and into the future. It doesn't mean being unconcerned w/the proximate evil, but it does place things in their proper perspective. Men w/o God, w/o the knowledge that justice will be done take it on themselves to try to bring about a utopia, and each and every time they try to put their hand out and eat from the tree of life and eat and live 'till time indefinite - they bring death, misery and destruction on their neighbors. It always happens. A proper estimation of one's station as a created, limited being will allow one to do what one can as palliative measures until the kingdom arrives - w/or w/o the assent of the planet.
    On the other hand you have a myriad of causes, none of whom I've found can give a rational account for why their cause needs to have supremacy over all other concerns - these simply have gone where the winds of the moment have taken them.
    Take "apostates" of any group - be these EX-JWs, EX-Mormons, EX-Muslims, EX-whatevers - these have causes, and usually it's not to say "This is the way, walk in it my people." it's "This is NOT the way, don't walk in it."
    Very hard to live a life studying "disease" and "disorder" and studying "mental illness" to know what good functioning and a good life (insofar as one can have one now) is focusing on what's wrong.
    People generally keep their balance when they are moving forward, using whatever positive momentum they have. As soon as they stop and try to statically stay in one spot, for fear of falling over, the more they fail.
    BUT having diverged a bit, you can see that one simply has to be able to answer the question especially if one wants others to spend their own scarce time and resources in support of their peculiar cause.
  15. Haha
    Pudgy reacted to AlanF in Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood   
    Still too clueless to realize how clueless you are. There's a name for that.
  16. Like
    Pudgy reacted to TrueTomHarley in Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood   
    The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the Homies nine that day;...   And now the leather-covered sphere came hurtling through the air, And Alan stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there. Close by the sturdy batsman the ball unheeded sped— “That ain’t my style,” said Alan. “Strike one,” the umpire said.   ”You ignorant moron! That was a home run!” Alan said...     With a smile of [atheist] charity great Alan’s visage shone; He stilled the rising tumult; he bade the game go on; He signaled to the pitcher, and once more the spheroid flew; But Alan still ignored it, and the umpire said, “Strike two.”   ”You’re brains are in your ass!” Alan said. “I knocked that one out of the park, too!”
    ...The sneer is [never] gone from Alan’s lip, his teeth are clinched in hate; He pounds with cruel violence his bat upon the plate. And now the pitcher holds the ball, and now he lets it go, And now the air is shattered by the force of Alan’’s blow.   ...Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light, And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout; But there is no joy in Adhominemville—mighty Alan has struck out.   ”I did not!! That was a grand slam home run!! All of my swings are!! What a bunch of clueless imbeciles—all of you. The most stupid, brain dead crowd that I have ever played for!! What a....”  
  17. Sad
    Pudgy reacted to AlanF in Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood   
    Cluelessly irrelevant to our topic as always.
  18. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to TrueTomHarley in Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood   
    This reminds me of when I told Alan about all my friends in the circuit, and he dismissed them all as backstabbers. I acknowledged that this was true, and that I was even getting a little tired of it, but not to worry, as I had learned to whirl around like Chuck Norris and take them out with a kick to the head..
    The fact that he cries foul at the hint of a joke, misunderstanding the very nature of life, as he regards this forum as his own personal courtroom and himself as Clarence Darrow, only adds to the ludicrous picture he presents. How can anyone possibly take him seriously?
  19. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to xero in WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"   
    A lot of this are what I'd call "Red Herrings". They're the "noble reasons" that the guy in prison gives for why they stabbed the guy. (the truth was the look on the other guys' face)
    Let's suppose you're right. That all this was a power issue. Whom did they have power over? What did it get them? Money? Fame? It wasn't until much later that I even knew any of their names. I could have cared less.
    I never once believed something because the organization said something was so. I never burned a pinch of incense to them. I read their arguments and some of them I agreed with completely and others I could see multiple ways. I didn't see the point with arguing about "tabs vs spaces" as it all compiled the same. I wasn't baptized into the WTS.
    Now to current issues. I do think that the issues w/pedophiles and the like is extremely important. I don't think any JW doesn't think it's important. How each case was handled? I don't know. How the organization has handled it - probably could have done it differently and they certainly know it now.
    Was the issue the "two witness"rule? Perhaps, and this is where you have to ask whether this was taken in the wrong context and it created this situation. To me it always seemed a matter of principal, that you didn't convict someone w/o good evidence, not a literal reading of the mosaic law that you had to have two witnesses.
    Does the fault lie with a corporation, or with individuals and individual congregations?
    It's being treated as a corporate crime and I know people have been hurt. Clearly this isn't just an issue w/JW's but also w/any group as the problem is a problem w/in society as a whole.
    Did we expect to remain untouched by the problems in the world? I'd say that would be unrealistic.
    I know that the training we had as well as the reporting was in our case always above board and legal and ethical. There was a case once where a young man about 15 was over at another families house and something happened with another young girl who was also underage, maybe 13 at a pool party. How was it handled? The police were called, and they investigated. That body investigated the circumstances as well. Nothing legal ever took place and the young man never had any further issues, though he changed congregations.  About 15 years after this he was being considered as an MS. Well this family heard of it and raised a stink. We had a meeting and some of the brothers seemed to not understand the issues here. 1. This was looked at by the police. 2. This was over a decade ago. 3. He had no contact w/the family or girl since that time. Yet some imagined we needed to examine this over again. I had to underscore that the "issue" was the issue of slander, not this thing which was investigated years ago. 
     
    He did get an appointment and he's married and doing well as far as I know. The other family hasn't fared so well. Was this all the fault of the 15 year old boy invited to a poorly supervised pool party? That doesn't seem reasonable.
    On the other hand continued abuse and neglect of serious situations clearly have taken place and been grossly mishandled. I can't imagine the suffering that these have had to deal with and no JW I know would want any of this to take place - yet it isn't outside the realm of possibility that corrupt elders and other corrupt people will find a home somewhere. You can see them looking sometimes to check out a congregation to see its spirit to see if this is a place where they can get away with things. No doubt some find a "home". It's terrible. You can have CO's who travel and they're supposed to check up on things and elders and elder bodies can disguise what's happening. That can happen.
    What does this mean? To me it means people are imperfect, some are evil and some are imperfect and evil and you may even run into them in the congregation. You get the sense of who a bro or sister is by a lot of things, and people gravitate towards the ones they resonate with. That's why you have to keep an eye on yourself and your brother.
    I remember one older elder grabbed me and took me into a room (I wondered why) and it was because he was accosted by this DF'ed sister who wanted to talk to him (he said he made a rule never to be alone w/a woman not his wife) and I thought that wise.

    Everyone has to decide. Do they want to go it alone and try to be a Christian by themselves for fear that the contact with others or an imperfect organization will taint them? Turn them from the way? Or, do they want to be part of a group with whom they are in the most agreement that they can be recognizing that all these things which are wrong in human society can also be wrong and will be wrong in that group?
  20. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to xero in WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"   
    Fortunately I never acquiesced to any organization. I used my own God-given conscience from the moment I walked into a kingdom hall. Some have left because they felt they needed to, and some have stayed. There is no universal response. It isn't even necessary for me to spend time defending an organization. Instead I'd rather spend it learning more about the Bible, bible history, archaeology, textual analysis and trying to better frame answers which help people who are looking for good answers to the emotional problem of evil. (the logical one already dealt with).
    Can a person be a Christian w/o attachment to an organization?
    I'm certain they can, but it's quite hard, and then one wonders what the point of it all is if there is not at least one other person? "When two or more are gathered in my name..."
    If one does decide to associate in some way with a group, even a nondenominational one, the chances are quite likely these believe, and quite strongly so, that anything you've "learned" in association w/Jehovah's Witnesses is tainted, and needs to be expunged from your mind. (Is literally "everything you learned" wrong?)
    There simply aren't any groups of people who won't in one way or another apply pressure to you to believe the things they believe, or remain silent where you don't. The tyrannical elements w/in people are too strong to keep in check. They always surface.
    As an exercise, type up your list of core beliefs and compare these to the myriad groups around. Can you find one which accords w/your core beliefs in every way?
    If you can, then consider yourself fortunate, because I haven't yet found a person associating w/a religious group yet who embraces fully every thing the "leadership" ("call no one leader, rabbi, father" - Mt 23:8-10) teaches.
    Just thinking out loud here, but I think some of the reasons some who have left don't really leave (besides having the annoyance of family members still in) are 1. The time spent is viewed as an investment which didn't pan out as expected and loss aversion is forcing a return (you might think, to one's 'vomit' - Pr. 26:11) ...but it's the economics fallacy of the sunk cost (but consider, was there no gain?) 2. There are no other places where these can go where anyone can even begin to understand what it means to actually BE one of Jehovah's Witnesses - It's a love-hate relationship, and no one in the world can begin to understand if they haven't been there 3. Very close to the previously mentioned...The loss of so much variety and association over years (along with memories that one cannot expunge from one's own head which are so damningly pleasant) which is missed one needs the contact to work out the "poison", to reframe the experiences which are there inside. In this these often find people who will engage them in such a way so as to reinforce the reasons these left.
    It's unfortunate that this is what it is. The human condition. Longing for a full realization of a utopia which looks as if it will never come, and damning the mirage for "tricking us" into believing to was real, and not only real, but about to become real for everyone on the planet.
    It's difficult for people to leave, no doubt. I've known a few. Some have embraced ideas which they would have strongly objected to on scriptural grounds years ago, some have lost all faith in God and become atheists or agnostics. This is a shame to me. It's like getting so close and because of blemishes real or imagined these abandon all faith, and the beautiful vision of the future under the kingdom. I applaud those who don't lose their faith and perhaps there are quite a number of these - I don't know, but I hope so. I can't help but believe that the lesson of understanding that mistaking an organization for the actualization of God's kingdom is one that these are going to have to learn at some point. When they do, I'm hoping they can let the anger go. If there is discipline to be meted out to organizations or individuals in organizations I'd say to remember Jesus, when he had a dispute w/Satan about the disposition of Moses body - "May Jehovah rebuke you" and if there's rebuking to be done, he'll certainly do it.
  21. Like
    Pudgy reacted to xero in As A Kid I Was Told Armageddon Was Near, So I Wouldn’t Need A Job. Now I’m A BDSM Model.   
    Tom, you never know how true that can be. There was this woman at work "Carmen" who apparently got wind that I was a JW and all and decided to start hitting on me. In the break room on a Friday she asked me to go to happy hour with her and her gf's. I said, looking at her seriously "Carmen. Happy hour begins at home." Then she said "But what if your wife has other plans?" I said (in front of a bunch of the guys) "Carmen, my wife has nothing better to do with her free time than to spend it all with me." All these guys busted out laughing.
    This stuff happens all the time I'm sure w/brothers because what you can't have is what you want sometimes.
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