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Pudgy

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  1. Like
    Pudgy got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Even the United States government realized in Court what you just stated, George 88, is not true. That’s why in 1972 they dropped it from the passport application.
     


  2. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Of course. That is the way it should be. That’s why we bother to put information and questions into the public realm. Readers can see it all and make of it what they will. That’s a good thing. Don’t you agree? 
  3. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Alas! I’ve no interest in controlling you, or anyone else. I’ve just asked a question.
    Readers can see the question.
    Readers can see your response.
    Let readers make of it what they will, which is as it should be. 
  4. Downvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from George88 in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    i would not characterize the pathetically transparent and lame diversion as a “red herring”.
    That is an insult to dead, spoiled fish.
  5. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    I've not asked, and never would I ask, JWs to swear loyalty to the GB. That's a red herring.
    What I did do was ask a question, which you just completely ignored. I'm not the one who offered a Wikipedia article saying "all you need to do is look at the Wikipedia commentary" regarding the issue of the society's offer of an alternate pledge of allegiance for JWs.
    So here's the question again:
    What part of the Wikipedia article expresses why the society didn't simply argue for the pledge all their top leadership was already swearing to?
    I mean, the society's top leadership was already pledging the oath of allegiance to the United States of America, which is the highest oath of allegiance recognized in the USA.
  6. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    What part of the Wikipedia article expresses why the society didn't simply argue for the pledge all their top leadership was already swearing to?
    I mean, the society's top leadership was already pledging the oath of allegiance to the United States of America, which is the highest oath of allegiance recognized in the USA.
  7. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    In arguments before the US Supreme Court in Barnette v West Virginia State Board of Education, the society offered an alternate pledge of allegiance for JWs.
    When Justice Jackson rendered the Courts opinion he recited the alternate pledge of allegiance offered. It reads:
    “I have pledged my unqualified allegiance and devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to His Kingdom, for which Jesus commands all Christians to pray. I respect the flag of the United States and acknowledge it as a symbol of freedom and justice to all. I pledge allegiance and obedience to all the laws of the United States that are consistent with God's law, as set forth in the Bible.”
    One can only wonder why the society felt the need for that alternative pledge of allegiance when they could have just told JWs they could pledge the same oath of allegiance sworn by all the society's top men, which reads like this:
    “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation, or purpose of evasion; So help me God."
    Anyone have any notion why the society didn't simply argue for the pledge all their top leadership was already swearing to? I mean, it's the highest oath of allegiance recognized in the USA.
  8. Downvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Alphonse in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    You remind me of a line from the Rocky II movie where Sylvester Stallone as Rocky is in a Bank trying to get a job that doesn’t Involve getting himself punched in the face 600 times a night.
     
  9. Downvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Alphonse in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Even the United States government realized in Court what you just stated, George 88, is not true. That’s why in 1972 they dropped it from the passport application.
     


  10. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Oh. Yes. I recall noticing that a few decades ago. That image was made available by the US Dept of State and was mined by Ancestry.com and other digital collections. It's still there for anyone to check. Typo and all, the document is legit. I had forgotten all about that typo until you pointed it out.
  11. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to JW Insider in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Don't know if this will help, but I think he is just saying that when a foreigner comes to another country, that foreigner must still obey the laws of that country. But there is a limit to that obedience, because a foreigner isn't required to take an oath of allegiance or obedience in everything. For example, would a Chinese citizen visiting Australia be required to fight for Australia against China if war between the countries broke out during their visit? (Or vice versa.) In the same way, Russell says that Bible Students are all for obedience to the laws, but don't take an oath of obedience and allegiance in all things, because Bible Students are essentially "foreigners" in their own country when it comes to their higher allegiance to God. 
  12. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to JW Insider in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    I signed almost precisely the same oath on my first passport. And yes I noticed it but it was easily explained away by my parents as just a necessary part of doing business in this world, and that all the brothers who need a passport sign it. Still, it felt funny when reading this scripture:
    (Matthew 5:36, 37) . . .Do not swear by your head, since you cannot turn one hair white or black. 37  Just let your word ‘Yes’ mean yes, your ‘No,’ no, for what goes beyond these is from the wicked one.
     
  13. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to JW Insider in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    No. That was my own typo. Sorry. It was the phrase "So held me God" instead of "So help me God." And Pudgy was only highlighting the part that says "Port of departure" instead of "Date of Departure" where part of the word "ALLEGIANCE" appeared writ large.
    However, I note that Elizabeth's 1922 application (above) also contains "Port." I now suspect you are right however because I searched such images on Google and have now seen several different versions of the application form from the early 1900's, and I have now seen a few versions with typos in other places, although this is the only one I saw with the word "held". It was a ripe place for a typo however because some versions changed the font to italic only at that sentence. Some highlighted different words in that sentence. 
    I brought it up, however, because major ex-JW sites are usually super-careful about never faking anything, especially because Witnesses so often claim that ex-JWs and non-JWs "always" fake things or take them out of context. Even claiming that photocopies of the literature have been faked. I have been through large portions of jwfacts.com, RF's CoC, COJ's GTR, etc., looking for exactly that kind of thing, and have never found a claim that could be countered with these common complaints. And where evidence exists elsewhere, it has ALWAYS supported the claims in those particular places. I can't say as much for ALL the ex-JW sites, because I haven't checked, but I know there is also a lot of misinformation out there from all sides. 
  14. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Thinking in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    I love Russell but I don’t understand what he is saying here,.
     
  15. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Thinking in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    I seen many years ago on another site which I think is redundant now….i was never sure what to make of it…..this oath must have had many brothers and sisters who travelled overseas compromise themselves.
  16. Confused
    Pudgy got a reaction from Thinking in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    As a side note, perhaps (?) forms were printed locally?
    This is a “typo” currently worth about $1.6 million dollars. (!)

    From the Awake! magazine, relegating the curiosity to a minor curiosity:
     

  17. Downvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Alphonse in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    A downvote from a doppelgänger sock puppet is not a coherent reply.
    Less relevant than if Dr. Banda was a dictator or a duck.

  18. Downvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Alphonse in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    So what?
  19. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Srecko Sostar in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    All of these WTJWorg presidents have sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States. According to WTJWorg theology, the USA and all the countries of the world are in the service of Satan. Secular authorities with their political systems (regardless of type) are a "beast". So these "exemplary Christians" support whoever is behind the political power of a country.
    No further discussion. Discussion is moot when any JW tries to justify the actions of their leaders while agreeing to the deaths of other JWs who have agreed to listen to doctrinal instructions from the US Bethel.
     
    2. Kings, chapter 12
    18 In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing.
    19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.
    If the act of idolatry of the JW brothers in the US needs to be justified, then the JW brothers in Malawi deserve it too.
  20. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    I don't know what "letter" you're talking about. But, yes, the images shared earlier by Pudggy are from passport applications. But that's not what you said earlier. Here's what you said earlier:
    So, earlier you said those images were "pictures of passports". As I said, and you now agree, they were NOT images of PASSPORTS. No one that I know of has ever had access to any of these men's passports other than themselves. Not even the US Department of State wouldn't have their passports (or copies of them!).
    I see you didn't bother to comment on your second error, which was your assertion the MCP cards were not essential to travel. It's your assertion. Care to prove it? I already know your statement is false, but it should be entertaining to see what you cook up as evidence of your assertion.
  21. Upvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Thinking in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    You missed the ENTIRE point George 88!
    It’s NOT about travel!
    It’s about the JW leadership pledging allegiance to the Constitution of the United States for their Passport, while the Brothers and Sisters in Malawi are being tortured and killed by the thousands for obeying not making a similar political statement. to get THEIR “passport”.
    To not get raped, tortured and KILLED.
    https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/malawi-mexico-oath-allegiance.php
    This link has the COMPLETE STORY, and I found it to be fair, true, and accurate.  I was paying attention.
     

  22. Upvote
    Pudgy got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    You missed the ENTIRE point George 88!
    It’s NOT about travel!
    It’s about the JW leadership pledging allegiance to the Constitution of the United States for their Passport, while the Brothers and Sisters in Malawi are being tortured and killed by the thousands for obeying not making a similar political statement. to get THEIR “passport”.
    To not get raped, tortured and KILLED.
    https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/malawi-mexico-oath-allegiance.php
    This link has the COMPLETE STORY, and I found it to be fair, true, and accurate.  I was paying attention.
     

  23. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    Some participants here may recall the utter shock of what our JW friends suffered in Malawi. The persecution was horrendous. It was all over a document known as an MCP party card. How many here have ever held one in their hand to look it over and see what it is?
    JWs of the time were under the impression that, as it was quoted in our publications, "they can give their allegiance only to Jehovah God and his kingdom". (Ref https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1968081?q=they+can+give+their+allegiance+only+to+Jehovah+God+and+his+kingdom&p=par#h=16 )
    Under that impression, JWs in Malawi were refusing to obtain the MCP party card.
  24. Like
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    You don’t have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about. For starters, those images above are not images of passports. So you’re wrong about that. Also, having an MCP card was essential for travel inside Malawi at the time. So you’re wrong about that too.
    Do you know anything at all about MCP party card distribution, party registration, or party affiliation? Anything at all? 
  25. Upvote
    Pudgy reacted to Many Miles in Malawi and MCP Cards?   
    At one time I had several in my library. I lent them out for various researchers. We know how that goes!  
    I should still have one though. It’s in a special collections safe. Sometime next week I’ll get to and share. I’m sure i still have one. Can’t imagine I’d have left my own library completely dry!!
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