Dmitar

https://www.castanet.net/news/Vernon/346544/Judge-orders-stay-of-Jehovah-s-Witnesses-constitutional-claim-on-privacy-of-records
Who gets to decide the constitutionality of privately held church records is at the centre of a court and privacy commission battle being waged by the Jehovah's Witnesses and two former members.
A B.C. Supreme Court judge has ordered a stay of proceedings in a case in which the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada sought to challenge British Columbia's privacy laws, saying the matter is best decided by the privacy commission.
The church had refused to turn over personal records sought by former Jehovah's Witnesses Gregory Westgarde and Gabriel-Liberty Wall.
Justice Janet Winteringham gave her decision in Vancouver on Monday.
It involves former members of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Coldstream and Grand Forks who wanted their personal records turned over to them after they left the church.
The congregations refused the requests, claiming the records were confidential and that compelling production violated their constitutional rights.
Church elders John Vabuolas and Paul Sidhu have proceedings underway before B.C.’s privacy commissioner on the matter, and Winteringham wrote in her decision that the court challenge versus B.C.'s attorney general be stayed pending the outcome of the privacy inquiries.
Vabuolas is an elder in the Grand Forks congregation, where Gabriel-Liberty Wall requested disclosure of his personal information in March 2020. Wall was baptized in February 2012, moved to the Grand Forks congregation in 2014, and formally resigned from the church in 2017.
Sidhu is an elder in the Coldstream congregation, where Gregory Westgarde requested his records in October 2020. About August 2009, Westgarde "made known to the elders he no longer wished to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses."
Sidhu described Westgarde’s departure from the church as "unequivocal," despite a trio of elders offering spiritual guidance.
"Based on our internal canon law, a brief summary of this decision, our efforts, and (Mr. Westgarde’s) response was placed in a confidential file under lock and key," Sidhu wrote in a deposition.
According to the litigants, "As a part of their spiritual duties, elders may create records about their congregants, particularly as it relates to their religious standing as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The plaintiffs allege B.C.’s privacy legislation does not recognize or respect the confidentiality of these records created in relation to the elders’ spiritual duties and as such violates their constitutional rights."
The Watchtower sought to stay the privacy inquiries and let the court decide the matter, but the judge disagreed, staying the civil suit against the attorney general's ministry, pending the outcome of the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner hearings.
The elders maintained that PIPA "violates their constitutional rights of religious freedom, freedom of expression and freedom of association because the legislation fails to protect confidential religious communications and records."
It seems to be all about power and control, but I would have thought a person should be entitled to have their records as why would the Elders still need them anyway ? 
Yes I know it's all about diferent laws in different places.  Perhaps I should ask for my personal information here in UK, and see what result i get  

Just seen on YT. Here is a JW committee where a woman can also participate in decisions led by men.
But that triggered another story i have heard. Imagine married couple. Wife is talented for music and singing. And she is looking forward to being able to be part of a choir to sing “theocratic” songs. The husband is looking forward to the same and they apply as volunteers. But one needs to pass a rehearsal in order to be a part of the choir. Unfortunately, the husband has no hearing at all and he drops out of the election. That means, neither wife has the opportunity to join the choir. ....... But there is a solution. The husband is talented at laying gypsum boards and smoothing boards. And here’s a wonderful opportunity for both of them to volunteer. Now it is only up to the wife to be happy as she helps with the installation of the drywall and their treatment, .... and she can hum while working on the construction site. This is what unity, hierarchy and submission to the husband mean. What a wonderful spiritual paradise.
 
 

@Space Merchant If you don't like the IICSA that is your problem.  I think they are trying their best to do a good job. If I can give them and the Police information then I will, because I think it's the Christian thing to do and I also think it's a legal requirement. 
Tell me what investigations / organisations the USA has that are investigating CSA in religion ?  
As for the 'grooming gangs' here in UK, most are non-white, non-english, this seems to have been proven in court cases. But when poeple say that they get accused of racism.  And yes, the UK government is currupt, and greedy, dishonest and selfish, but then so are all politicians earthwide. But once again that is all part of the world, and i don't get involved. 
The main point that I'm concerned with is that True Christians need a Clean True Organisation guided by True Anointed ones, led by God's Holy Spirit, through Christ. 
Anything outside of that is part of the world. If a person starts to get involved in trying to 'put things right' in the world, then that person will be side tracked from trying to serve God properly.  
We ARE living in the Last Days. Whether it will be another ten years or another thirty years. So trying to put worldly things right is just a waste of time. You said yourself CSA will get worse. In fact all things will get worse. So the concentration should be on building an Organisation that serves God properly through Christ. And that Organisation needs to be completely clean. i have faith that it will happen. 
 

I focus on them because they are the official channels, not just hearsay. I have also given information to the IICSA and had direct emails from them and from Police departments. Perhaps I'm slightly more involved than most people think, but I don't tend to spread it all over the internet. 

Do you know how, in which way and after how much time "random folks" become JW members?

But I keep coming back to the point that here in the UK we have had two investigations. The Charity Commision and the IICSA. What are the authorities doing in the USA ? What investigations ? 

Why, specifically?
Would you instead of the Urban Bulldogs, prefer Metropolitan Poodles?
 

For the first time, today i saw a stand at an outdoor market, for 'Urban Bulldogs Against Kids Abuse'.  This is a biker organisation. Now this is here in sleepy Devon England. 
As much as I want to see children protected, this biker organisaton sets alarms ringing for me. 
 

We can also turn this around to say, God does not warn the householder of hidden pitfalls and intentions of the one - (shoot up the ladder to the leaders) -  they are studying the Bible with.  
But really, God did warn us through His Word, we just didn't take note at the right time.  (Jer 14:14; Ezek 13:1-7;  Matt 7:15-18; 24:24,25; 1 John 4:1; 1 Tim 4:1,2)
"You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time. 2 People will be selfish and love money. They will brag, be arrogant, and use abusive language. They will curse their parents, show no gratitude, have no respect for what is holy, 3 and lack normal affection for their families. They will refuse to make peace with anyone. They will be slanderous, lack self-control, be brutal, and have no love for what is good. 4 They will be traitors. They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.
6 Some of these men go into homes and mislead weak-minded women who are burdened with sins and led by all kinds of desires. 7 These women are always studying but are never able to recognize the truth.
8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. Their minds are corrupt, and the faith they teach is counterfeit. 9 Certainly, they won’t get very far. Like the stupidity of Jannes and Jambres, their stupidity will be plain to everyone."   2 Tim 3:1-8
 
So, of course, organized religion would attract not only the naïve, but the traitors; who carry out the desires of deceitful wicked rulers - and the desires of their own wicked heart.  
 
The Sign of the End
 
 
 

From your explanation I would conclude that then the problem is in those JWs who conduct a Bible study with an “interested pedophile,” and later in JW elders who approve of such a candidate to be baptized as a JW.
It follows from all this that, the JW belief as"the angels guide and supervise their preaching" and thus the biblical teaching on the individual level of the future candidate, is not useful. Or you have such impression how angels are not helpful in JW preaching service?
Also, prayer at the beginning and end of Bible study does not reach God, because He does not warn them (JW members) of the hidden pitfalls and hidden intentions of the one with whom they study the Bible. 
JW members believe that God and the Holy Spirit lead/guide this “imperfect” Organization that claims to be the only true Christian congregation. Observers would rightly expect the CSA plague not to be in such proportions at the JW Church. Observers would rightly expect, too, that JW members and especially leaders/elders in JW assemblies be prepared for all, "be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one". But, sadly, JW members and elders failed. They failed the exam/the test.
 
 

The truth is you have to kiss the butt of the Elders to be able to get baptised. The Elders rule over the congregations.
The congregation i was in when I wanted to get baptised, was ruled over by two Elders, a father and son.  The son decided that I wasn't ready, so his father agreed. They STOPPED me getting baptised. But I was humble then, I just said ok. Later when the son wanted me to get baptised i actually didn't want to. But once again I was humble, and I did as I was told, and got baptised. 
So I know first hand (from more than one experience) that the Elders have complete control over the congregants, and they love every minute of it. But of course they will be judged for it. 

CSE is well-indexed by Google, but the closest comment I could find in this regard was the following on CSE:
Baptist William Miller came up with calculations pointing to 1844 as the second coming of Christ Jesus. Seventh Day Adventists, along with members of the Bahai’ Faith, also point to October 1844 as being highly significant with regard to end-time prophecy. As far as I am aware, the only other group apart from Jehovah’s Witnesses who still cling to 1914 are the survivors of the original Bible Students who voted with their feet and left the organisation after the second President, Rutherford, introduced the name Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I think the real question is, if a person of good heart decided he wanted to become one of Jehovah’s Witness, do you have to really believe all these superfluous things that are of no consequence in order to be baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Would you have to give lip service to these things which are in retrospect blatantly wrong?
Would you get a pass from the elders for things which in good conscious to you seem silly and stupid, if you firmly believed in all the core beliefs and wanted to dedicate your life to Jehovah God, through Christ?
……. what I am afraid of is that the travesty is, that we already know the answers to the above questions.
 
 

If I'm not mistaken, there is an even more significant difference between them. A Catholic priest does not form a Judicial Committee of 3 priests, nor does he make a decision on transgression and bring punishment, but as a kind of advocate “liberates / forgives” sins in the name of God, expecting the sinner to be a penitent and no longer commit sin. Is such practice, from both side, good or bad? 
A sinner can be “thankful” if word of his behaviour does not spread further. But this is a criminal act (CSA) and it is no longer an important question whether the perpetrator will feel "embarrassed", but how to help the victim.
For JW elders, it should not be decisive how a Catholic priest acts and how they are treated by the Law and the Court. JW elders, because of their view that they are “true servants of God” placed by God in a leadership position, should have a more enlightened knowledge of merciful and just action / reaction for both parties involved. "Forgive whenever you can, punish whenever you need to." 

I think you are a dreamer, but we've been down this road before and you will believe what you want to believe. 
If i remember rightly in one case, the Elders refused to testify against a fellow Elder, using that clergy privilege as the excuse.
Maybe Zalkin or the judge is being paid off by the GB and their Lawyers. 
But tell me please.
Australia had the Australian Royal Commission 
Here in the UK we have had the Charity Commission and the IICSA.
The Netherlands had an investigation and report. 
So what is America doing ? Where is the investigation in the USA ?
Canada, was trying to have a massive million dollar law suit, but I think it wasn't allowed. So what is Canada now doing ?
Seems strange that the Watchtower / JW Org isn't being investigated in it's 'home land'. 
( @Witness mentioned something about the Org making payment to a politician some time back )
The GB will do anything to keep their authority and power.  I think they are paying off someone in America to stop an investigation from happening. 
But of course if you know different. If you know of an investigation into religion in the USA ??? 

So, we could say that it is a matter of decision, In this case by JW elders, how much they want to be principled. The three Jews from the book of Daniel were so principled that they were thrown into the furnace of fire. Some are principled and refuse blood transfusions or military service. But WTJWorg lawyers are the ones asking the court that JW elders should have the same status as Catholic priests. It is not the court that grants them that status (perhaps court try to understand and make comparison between payed and not-payed "ministers" . The JW elders invoke the right not to speak before the Court what a JW member has admitted to them.

Further about the situation with Zalkin.
From one website:
"He Zalkin) also has four years of redacted documents locked in a filing cabinet in his office. The judge’s protective order prevents him from saying how many documents he received or describing what they reveal about child abuse in Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations.
“It’s very frustrating to have seen what I’ve seen and to know what is going on in this institution and this organization,” he said. “It’s very frustrating when I’ve got a gag in my mouth. It’s pretty hard. We’re trying our best to expose this truth, and they’re doing everything they can to interfere with that effort, to block that effort.”
Who put the gag in his mouth? The judge.
And if you don't mind me saying, what has he seen, as he claims? And what does he know about the "institution"? In reality he knows nothing, only what he has heard or seen written down.  He is just saying words that will impress lay people, people who don't know much about JWs or the law. He himself knows, as a lawyer, he could never divulge information in these documents. He would lose his license immediately.

Yes, we have discussed this on the forum before. I think this issue is taken to be viewed from the secular perspective only. They, the secular authorities, designate JW elders as having a clerical role as ministers (of religion). Therefore, under official circumstances, such as in a court of law, elders are viewed as "clergy". Whether they themselves, or the congregation view them as clergy in the traditional sense or not is irrelevant in these secular circumstances. (JWs view everyone who is baptized as minister, but obviously there is a distinction between roles and obligations, since elders also have the role of oversight and shepherding). I think in secular terms the word elder falls under the umbrella of clergy, despite the fact that our "clergy" do not hold matters confidential (as you and pudgy pointed out) to the same extent as a Catholic priest for example.

Legislators obviously have not made an exception to who exactly should be viewed as clergy. They have not, as far as I know, added a clause which says JW elders should not be viewed as clergy because they are not the same as Catholic priests and do not view confidential disclosure in the traditional sense. By law, they fall under the same umbrella regardless of differences of application by the particular religion.

If I remember right, the plaintiff in a recent lawsuit tried to use the difference of elders and clergy to his advantage by arguing that elders cannot be viewed as clergy because their brand of “confidentiality” includes a whole body of elders and the HQ. However, the judge deemed this irrelevant because he said it is a religions right of how they (JWs) apply their beliefs, and that it wasn't the courts business to tell a religion how to run their religious affairs, and then on that account make exceptions to secular rules. In the courts eyes an elder was clergy, period.

In saying this, I personally believe the org. should refuse the designation of clergy by secular authorities as applying to them. But I am not sure if this is possible legally? It might not be.
In any case, if it is possible, then I think they should do it. But law is so complex, rigid, and impersonal and doing something that is not according to the law can have bad repercussions down the road, even for an innocent party.

The JWs have been trying to, actually imploring, legislators to change the law and make ALL clergy mandatory reporters (all over the world). This is what all victims want too. Perhaps this is the real answer to solving the problem…. 
 
 
 
 
The law forbids him to use it.  
I don't think the WT org. has the right to publish it or give anyone else the right. These papers involve specific cases, most of which have not even been proven, but are allegations (and these allegations would have to be proved as fact in court). To publish anything like this....well I am sure you can see this would be very wrong. Zalkin is not interested in publishing, (against the law anyway) as much as he is interested in wining specific cases. But unless a victim asks him to do so, he cannot open a case. So he has no choice but to keep the files locked up.

When elders are told to remove their personal notes from files regarding child abuse, and to destroy them, that is a form of denial.

There are SOooo many things that "look good on paper", that work well on paper, but in the REAL world, because all humans are flawed, some more than others, the "rules, regulations, protocols, and intentions" in the REAL world are. AS APPLIED, also deeply flawed.
It's the nature of the beast.
Those who don't get out of the basement much never realize this, and their inexperience, and lack of perception causes them to imagine a world where the way things SHOULD be is somehow attainable.
It's not
Get used to it.
Or have a stroke.
It's not so amazing that the dancing bear dances well ..... but that it can even dance at all.
In the Catholic World View, a Priest is the intermediary between God and mankind, and if you confess to the priest, whatever you confess is, in theory, known only between you and God.
The classic example of how this does NOT work is how, during World War II, in Germany, the Catholics were taking confessions of resistance fighters, and acting as an intelligence  network for whoever they thought would win the war, at any point in time.
Usually the Nazis, as former Cardinal Pachelli, who before the war was the Vatican Secretary of State, and who signed the "Holy Concordat" between the Vatican and the Third Reich, aligning the two governments in common cause.
So, a Catholic would confess to the Priest, and the info, if of tactical advantage to the Nazis, went to the Nazis.  Usually.
Among Jehovah's Witnesses, if a Brother or Sister confesses to the Elders some transgression, Matthew 18:15, in my experience, and the experiences of every account I have ever heard of, is NEVER invoked when it is time for "the rubber to meet the road".
Matthew 18 in general is completely ignored ...when it is needed the most.
Not only that, but they share details with the ENTIRE body of elders, who share it with their wives, and other elders in other Congregations they know well ... and make written reports to Headquarters, reviewed by many there. Lawyers, Secretaries, Clerks, and IT people when it is digitized.
Nothing new.  Nothing unusual. Same-Oh-Same-Oh.
It's just that the dancing bear has two left feet, and a balance problem.
Bears should not try and dance, but since the beginning of time, all figurative bears dress up in top hat and tails, and try to dance.
Anywhere on this planet, in every time and place, this is true, to a greater or lesser extent.
Recognizing REALITY, as it really is, is sad, discouraging, and then we die.
As each of us march without pause to our own eventual deaths, the important thing is to stay sane.
Sanity requires that we recognize that our "Spiritual Paradise" is not. It is, as applied, a very bad form of organization.
Sanity requires that we recognize that all the others are so much worse.
Matthew 18 is by far the most important book of the Bible, down here where the "rubber meets the road".
 
 

Laws and regulations about issue is available to see and you said well.
Of course, when we speak about JW elders then it is notable to understand how we have to put clear picture on question; Do they, JW elders, clergy or not? If they are clergy then they have "right" to call themselves on Catholic Clergy privilege and ask for same "rights" as they do. 
Is an elder in the JW congregation the same as a priest in the Catholic Church? Do they have the same role and obligations and status according to biblical principles? Do they belong to the same kind of hierarchy (Catholic hierarchy, "Apostolic" hierarchy) as WTJWorg lawyers have sought before the courts?
I guess someone gave him that information and someone "forbade" him to use it. Or he got them on the condition that he shouldn’t use them. The source (WTJWorg) of the information would have the right to publish that information for the sake of “truth and justice”. But that wouldn't be of interest to the WTJWorg organization, would it? That would distort the image of a "spiritual paradise."

If I'm not mistaken, sharing some information, especially when it pertains to privileged and private information is not legal. I'm not even talking about sharing information about a perpetrator, I'm talking about the victim/survivor. Zalkin is sitting on a pile (he says about 100) of cases given to him by the org. which he is not allowed to use or make public by law. They are locked up in his safe. 
Also, I do not think the existence of such documentation/records has ever been denied.
 

Thanks for posting this. On this forum one might even forget that the Catholics have a problem. Also, I've seen statistics that are surprisingly detailed for some religious organizations, reminding me that JWs aren't the only ones who keep records on such issues, including from among their congregants/laymen/parishioners.

They will say it's persecution by Satan.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-13/jehovah-witnesses-child-abuse-four-corners-investigations/100444320
Since the royal commission exposed the cruel treatment of victims of child abuse within the Jehovah’s Witnesses, little has changed. 
But in a landmark civil case, former member Amy Whitby is taking on the secretive religious group in court. 
Eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses around the globe believe that Armageddon is imminent, and the only path to survival is to follow the organisation’s strict rules.
A US-based Governing Body of eight men sits at the pinnacle of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organisation. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these men are anointed as the voice of God on Earth.
All Witnesses are expected to obey instructions and doctrines that influence every aspect of life: Women are considered subservient to men, higher education is discouraged and homosexuality is not permitted.
 

Doomsday images from Jehovah's Witnesses publications. Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania
 
The organisation’s in-house production studio and publications pump out fear-driven content that keeps followers afraid that the end is coming and that they are being persecuted by the outside world.
Witnesses are also taught to distrust everyone outside the group.
Just another article about the Watchtower / JW Org, but it shows people's personal opinions. It's worth a read.
So how do JWs expect to teach people 'truth' whilst people have this image of them ?