Dmitar

Once again this can easily refer to the leaders of the Watchtower / JW Org. Obviously they didn't have the FACTS  when they wrote so many of their Watchtower magazines and so many of their books. Either they didn't have the FACTS or they deliberately told lies.  But you probably wont agree. It would be pointless listing proof of their mistakes / lies as it's all been here before. 

I remember back in the “old days”, the only thing you were asked was “ … can you do the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?”.

Traditions of men. Or just dictatorship by the GB ? 
Well silly things come to mind such as the Beard problem. Some brothers were not even allowed on the platform if they had a beard.
The Suit and Tie thing, a must for all brothers. And ladies not being allowed to wear trousers even though they are designed and made for ladies. 
And having to go through an 'examination' of 100 questions before being allowed to be baptised. And then being baptised into the Organisation, not baptised as Jesus gave instruction. 
Having to put in report sheets to prove you have done ministry each month, then being counted as 'inactive' if you haven't put a report in.   
Being almost forced to join their Ministry school which mean you have to go up onto the platform to give small talks to the whole congregation (over 100 people). Something which gave me no pleasure at all. 
The being told what you can and cannot do, instead of it being left to your own conscience. 
Yes it's all been on here before but you did ask. 
 
 

Once again that is only your opinion. I stop when I realize I'm wasting my time reading. 
 
The meme is a very touchy subject that I will not get drawn into. You know why as I mentioned so at the time. 
The FBI thing I know nothing about but I'm sure you will enlighten me. 
Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement, they even went separate ways, but they both forgave one another. However you seem to have judged me and you tell me that i do not forgive others. So be it. You have chosen to think that way. 
Once again the only thing i take from your long comment is that you continue to judge me.  I hope it helps you to build your faith in God through Christ. For surely we will all be judged in due time. 
 

Maybe what Rando is doing is just an overreaction, similar to the ones about 1914, 1918/19, 1925, 1941, 1975 and everything/all other after that?  
WTJWorg eschatology in action. 
Certainly, people will eat, drink, marry, build and plant. Some/many of them will be struck by trouble, because trouble is a part of life in the world as we know it. Some of the troubles that have happened or are happening today, have been / are at the local or even global area / level. This allows for interpretations / overreactions followed by disappointments many times over. 
 

@BroRando  You are funny. You are good for a laugh, but, you cannot be taken seriously because of your attitude. 
Yes, each day we get a day closer to Armageddon, of course we do. And i don't deny we are living in the 'time of the end'.
But what I will not do is to put a date on it.  And as the scripture tells us "Unless those days were cut short, then no flesh would be saved". 
Now either Almighty God or Jesus Christ, has to decide when those days must be cut short. 
As for 1914, that was 'thrown out the window' years ago. You are just living in the past. 
You are of course entitled to your own opinion about 2034. But you must question yourself as to whether God or Christ has given you the right to spread that rumour to bring trouble to other people.  You could well be seen as a stumbling block as mentioned in Luke 17 : 1 & 2. 

I gave up half way through your ramblings. And yes it's good that you hound me, just as the Pharisees hounded Jesus. 
As for opinions, everyone on here is just going by their own opinions. NO ONE is inspired of God's Holy Spirit. Even the JWs disagree amongst themselves. 
Rando mentions the 120 years in his first comment, which we know he relates to 1914 and comes out with 2034. So you are saying 'other people' are saying that 2034 is 'the year'.  I don't really care what 'people' are saying when it comes to naming a specific year, because we are told that NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR. So those that are spending their time pretending to know, are working against God and Christ Jesus. 
You say "But you do not really forgive anyone"  How wrong you are.
You say that I get angry.  Once again How wrong you are.  
Because I am assertive you presume I am angry. but you are wrong. You have chosen to judge me. You have chosen to hound me. You have chosen to 'think' that you are right about matters. So be it. But in reality you have just jumped onto the bandwagon with Tom and Arauna and others.
I do continue to forgive everyone that dislikes me and that talks against me and that accuses me of things. Jesus said that anyone that followed him would suffer in such ways. 

What I seem to notice is that JWs (or pretend JWs) will use outside information when it suits them, and discard outside information when it does not fit with their ideas. 
Now regarding 2034. Surely it does not matter how many people have 'come to this conclusion' ?  Firstly, why are people needing to find a date ?  And why would JWs need to trust the words of 'worldly' men or men of other 'faiths' ? 
At this point I would question, is 2034 a Watchtower / JW Org teaching, or is it just a Rando teaching ? 
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Are you suggesting that JWs have only 'true' information ?  This, you see, is an important matter.
The Watchtower / JW org is truthful on some matters, but that does not mean they are honest in all things. However the general consensus on this forum is that if a person leaves the JW Org, then they have left God, or left the 'truth'. 
So, are you saying that none of the Watchtower / JW Org teachings can be 'misinformation' ? 
Are you saying that the Governing Body of the Watchtower can not have 'misconceptions' ? 
 
Yes, by @JW Insider references, Russell tied himself up in knots with dates, predictions and then doubts about it all. 
But quite funny that Russell thought that people would still be reading his books now. The International Bible Students which still exist, seem to support Russell I think. 
Since Rutherford started the new organisation of the JWs there must have been a hundred books written by them, most of which have now been removed. They keep saying they have 'new light'. 
So, is 2034 'new light' or just some peoples dream ? 

And what do you think this has to do with me ? 
I have not denied Almighty God or Jesus Christ.  I study God's written word and also pray to him. 
I have strong faith in God through Christ. And I do not guess at dates that are none of my business. 
I do not try to mislead others. I am not after followers for myself. 
The fact that I give warning about the JW Org having Pedophiles in it, and that Child Sexual Abuse takes place in it, this cannot be a bad warning to people. 
And the fact that I do not believe your GB are the F&DS has no bearing on my love for God or Christ. 
Jesus made a point of telling His disciples not to make names for themselves and not to place themselves above others. 
Unfortunately you seem to think that the Watchtower/JW Org replace God and Christ. You seem to be worshipping your  Organisations and your GB, or pretendig to do so. 
I do wonder if you are actually a JW at all. Or if you are deliberately trying to bring shame on that Organisation. That is exactly what Billythe Kid and others tried to do, and Billy also used  this way of trying to condemn me. 
 

I will not be drawn out on this issue. I do not want some one to use it as an excuse to remove me from here. 
My point about those two early Christians was that they disagreed, went seperate ways, but still forgave each other. 
Indeed Christians can break and some do. However having left the JW Org I feel spiritually stronger because i have to 'go it alone' as far as people are concerned. My faith in God through Christ is stronger and that is what matters to me. 
Have a good day.

(Paul walks into a bar with four Centurions, hold up two fingers in a "V" shape, and says "Five Beers!".)

Yeah! What are yu waiting IV ?

I get it that I am being tagged, and I appreciate the apparent vote of confidence. But I think it is pretty clear that with PSomH you are dealing with a dodo whose inability to talk or see sense, not just on JW things but on many things in general, can cause people to pull their hair out, as it is with you.  

Like I said, if you are going to make a claim about something, do not make assumptions otherwise it would be problematic, and we can see when called out about it or zeroing in on your own claim, you react the way you do, and make remarks to dodge your own words. Everyone knows if one alienates themselves from God, especially in this manner, they do not have love in them or cling to what is good, mainly for those who show no remorse for their actions. This is why it was wrong of you to attest to Romans 12:9 ;granted you didn't even know the meaning behind the quotation I said; in my response to @TrueTomHarley because Alienation reaps instances of disaster, hence those questions addressed to you in red and blue, we know what the Bible says in regards to this things, marriage should be between a man and a woman, homosexuality is sin, war destroys lives, etc. People who cling to badness, do not have love in them, or have that of what is good in God's Word, hence why Ephesians 4:18 was appropriate because it correlates with not what was said, but the current situation of things regarding Christians and haters of God.
Truthers do have heart for the longest of time, again do not make an accusation if you can't back it up; mainly if you have no knowledge of that such entails. Because there are things of which such has found that would  put you into shock. And there I will rest it, for one's ignorance of the term; thus the talk of misinformation and the lack of understanding, let alone the very reason Truther always coin the MSM misleading the general public, let alone take pride in looking for missing persons, such as children.
This isn't an argument, my response was towards Tom and only him in regards to Apostasy, but you interjected with some narratives that do not even connect with hat was conveyed.
A lesson you do not learn from and you continue to do such things.
Correction - it does matter what the enemy is doing, hence the UN and the events of 2016/2017 and onward, i.e. those who were pleasing God were taken by Babylon in Washing some years ago, and they were not vigilant compared to most. The Christians wiped out were in the thousands, all taken into the Temple of Babylon, even a few Jehovah's Witnesses, current and former. This is why Proverbs 22:3 is vital, as is with being enduring, watchful, and vigilant in the last days of the End Times and continously pray to God, and adhere to the commission. We have to be aware of the danger of Babylon and the Beast otherwise we fall victim to it. Strong Christians, although some do not know 100% of the inner workings of the Beast and the Harlot, they do everything they must to evade being taken away, likewise with those who are alienated from God and what they have been doing thus far. You do not see that because you seem confined to a  single space.
The Bible teaches us the danger of God's adversary and what we must avoid, things we have to do to strengthen ourselves, and the like. Because even the smallest of err can swing someone into the Devil's favor, thus becoming a drifter and a pawn to that of Babylon and the Beast, especially during these times of the pandemic, which the powers that be are using to scare people.
That being said, not only an examination must be executed on your part, but you need to actually open your eyes, as I told you before when you went by the name JB.
 
Anyways as for the subject matter - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/19649/when-jesus-was-nailed-to-the-cross-did-the-nails-go-through-his-hands-or-throug/19651#19651
 
 

You keep pushing just like a bully in a school playground. "Do this, do that. I told you this, I told you that".
No love, no thoughtfulness, just harshness. A Truther, with no heart. So be it.  
I suppose one thing that the JWs teach makes sense. "Don't argue, just walk away.  It doesn't matter what the enemy thinks, it only matters that you are pleasing God through Christ".   
 

It is interesting that just as I was about to respond to the comment @BroRando made under the heading, "Like the Days of Noah", the topic was suddenly closed to further comments.  However, I will respond here.
Quote @BroRando - "Therefore the prophecy, "It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name" at (Rev 13:16-17) will have come in Full Force. A door to door enforcement if need be."
"Have you dedicated your life to Jehovah and symbolized your dedication by baptism in water? If you have, that is wonderful! Do you remember when the brother giving the baptism talk asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”? When you answered yes, everyone present knew that you had dedicated your life and were qualified to be baptized as an ordained minister of Jehovah. You must have made Jehovah very happy! " ws17 April p. 7
Baptism questions as of 2019:
 “Have you repented of your sins, dedicated yourself to Jehovah, and accepted his way of salvation through Jesus Christ?”

(2) “Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with Jehovah’s organization?””
A mark is a symbol of identification.  In the symbolic book of Revelation, “buying and selling” has nothing to do with literal commerce.  It has to do with the restricted spiritual commerce that your organization demands.  (Rev 13:16,17)
JWs receive a “mark”/identification at the time of baptism, that affects their spiritual activities from then on.  Your leaders demand full devotion to their teachings only.  In exchange for your servitude to the Beast/organization, you receive your spiritual food - doctrine, lies - which you then distribute to others.  Anyone who rejects this identifying mark,can be disfellowshipped - symbolically, spiritually, "killed".  Rev 13:15
The mark we are to bear should identify our devotion to God and His Son only. God’s word in Jesus Christ is the only mark we should accept on our heart and in our mind.  (Deut 6:6,8)  
JWs wear proudly, the mark of the Beast, which is idolatry.  (Ps 106:20; Hos 4:7; Rom 1:25; Rev 13:4)

The manner and purpose of conducting a “Bible study” with people interested in the JW religion is not to get to know how the WT Society came into being, it is not the history of the Organization as a Corporation.
The purpose of “studying” is to reject “wrong” religious or secular ideologies and to fully accept WTJWorg theology. Some details of the Organization's historical transitions can be found in other WTJWorg publications, but comprehensive and/or complete insight cannot be gained by reading a single book that would provide a complete historical overview with all the details. After all, history is written by “winners”. And that most often means that the truth will be distorted or significantly changed.
PS
"Proclaimers" book, for example, dealing with historical overview of Corporation. But is not available on every language and by that not for every JW member in the World. Even if it is available on language of some JW member that would not mean she/he would read it and find some gaps and questions about Organization.
For sure they will not find "diagram" as showed here.    

And you presume that people studying the Bible with JWs were ever taught this ?
Well not here in the UK. not back in the 1960's / 70's. 
Do you think this is taught in Kingdom Halls or via vidoe link now ?  
The JW teaching was, and probably still is, that it was a smooth transition from Rusell to Rutherford then to the JW org. 
I don't think you gave a link as to where this diagram came from., but I see it's on Wikipedia.... 

The premier sign of hate - OCD........is the following symptom.: no matter what the subject ..... you shall find a way to push your hate agenda - related to the subject or not.    The subject is irrelevant -it is the overpowering desire of hate that always wins and its repetitive nature of the disorder.

Scott Adams has a good gig going. 

I can relate to that because I have debated conspiracy theorists before, the legit ones, not the the alleged ones the MSM brands people.
Sadly, but true, there are conspiracy theorists in the Abrahamic Faiths (i.e. those who believe God as given people superpowers by means of magic.... Yeah it gets that weird), some of which, I had mentioned before.
That being said, this "IBSA conspiracy" can be considered debunked.
 

@Patiently waiting for Truth The Jehovah's Witnesses were AFTER the Schisms, 3 of them to be exact. Likewise with the other groups, even the DBSA. 
And no, do not make assumptions, that information only took 2 minutes of research, that is elementary knowledge just by the history itself.
If you forgot, here is the image again, you should know this because you are a former Jehovah's Witness, granted you always said because you were once part of the faith, you knew everything:
                         
You made the claim that the IBSA still exist, it was already known of Associated and Free Bible Students, and how the JWs came to be as noted below:
So you are attempting to justify a UK only based Charity? Your own quotation kills your resolve:
You were asked on activities, not names also...
Not to mention your link leads to sources that shows Data analytics for for financials, you were asked on recent activities of the IBSA itself (of which you claim are still active DESPITE the schisms), as in gospel preaching and the like. Not to mention you deliberately, and knowingly went around history to justify misinformation. That is essentially lying on purpose.
As a side note, your original link has no connection at all, so it shows you are just looking for something to justify nothing.
That being said, the focus originally was about FACTS over OPINION. Just this IBSA thing alone, you made an unproven statement. You later tried to use the above to justify yourself which ultimately puts you in error.
Again, misinformation, misconception, opinions with no factual backing.
You asked before what it takes to achieve knowledge and or understanding of core teachings, the answer was very simple - Research. In this case, only a few seconds of searching, which you could have done instead of jumping to your own conclusions, which was seen as a bluff.
What makes it even worse now, in regards to Witness' remark, you just proved the GB to be in the right when it comes to people jumping to conclusions without having all the facts and going about listening to misinformation to draw your own conclusion, mainly from things that former witnesses use and conjure up some narrative to intertwined it with something; mixing what is seen by the public with false information.
There is a saying we have in the US, that fits this type of situation - Congratulations, you just played yourself. 
Anyway, it is very easy to find the activities of the other groups in regards to their gospel spreading, etc. as is the difference between them; from the Associated Bible Student Factions and the Free Bible Student Factions, as well as apart from the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Free Man group, again with DBSA, their recent activities, in example (http://www.dawnbible.com/2021/2108cl-1.htm), likewise with what was quoted before.
That real estate notation is irrelevant. If it was International (definition - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/international), it would not be secluded to the UK only, likewise with your latter link, which goes a contradiction on your part.
That being said, if the IBSA existed today, there wouldn't even be groups that came out of it, which is why I asked you to answer question 1 and 2. IBSA would still be active, even maintain their Restorationists roots and go about how those in Restorationism operate - The DBSA would not exist, The Layman's and the Free Man, or any of the Associated/Free Bible Student groups would not exist because they'd all already be under the umbrella of the IBSA, an international group with the same motive and operation. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses would not exist, nor the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" would ever be given at all. There wouldn't be any Schisms, no Rutherford or anyone else, etc. But that, my friend, is in a different realm of reality, an imaginative one, a "What If" type situation.
When you discover time travel, JB, perhaps you can do whatever you wish, alter the timeline so to speak.
All that said, you show yourself an example of someone who goes about unproven things, misinformation and the like - and now, it is shown for all to see, so you should have kept that IBSA card tucked away in your pockets, so to speak.

Thank you for all the information, and i stand corrected. You are right I don't dig deep enough. 
OK, even the meme is funny.  On this occasion I bow to your superior knowledge. Thank you. 
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It seems the name still exists though but as part of the JW Org. 
https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=216647&subid=0
INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION
Charity number 216647 
Activities - how the charity spends its money
Promoting the Christian religion by helping congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses & others with their spiritual & material welfare. We provide facilities for the production of Bible literature & housing for members of the order of special full-time servants. Conventions for Christian education are arranged & the public are invited.
Income and expenditure
Data for financial year ending 31 August 2020
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They also run an Estate agents (Real estate?) business selling property too. https://ibsaproperty.com/
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But that is all off topic, and as I say I stand corrected. 
 
 

I have carefully read the preceding conspiracy theories, opinions, conjectures, observations, wild-ass guesses, and delusional paranoid nattering nabobs of negativity, and would like to offer an alternative explanations to the more prevalent fantasys being extolled and advocated here .........
 

.... words are often a mere shadow of their true meaning ....

lol you can't be serious? The link says international bible students, but the website in question is an archived database of what the IBSA was when it existed. IF you are trying to humor me, you just did.
Evidence to that is archived information with no updates, the website even tells you they do not produce anything. That statement you stated says who are the Bible students, it does not make any indication of the IBSA itself, granted, from the IBSA several groups were formed, in this case, the Jehovah's Witnesses.
More so history isn't your strong point, and you simply set yourself up badly here.
There has not been any update on that website, and it has a collection and even archives of what was professed by them and others, i.e. links takes you elsewhere to information that isn't in associated with IBSA. The links relay to other sources that isn't of IBSA, more so, does not even associate with IBSA. and it is not secure (very telling when source is checked, meaning anything can be put there).
Something tells me you pulled the first item off of a google search, when to the "about" page to copy that quote. Therefore - You sought to Excalibur, but you found a wooden sword instead.
This also pushes the fact that to Res Lite's credit, and the evidence, the group broken into different groups, as shown here, this picture below can also be found online for the general public to see.
There are 5 Associated Bible Students, DBSA is included among them, then there are the Free Bible Students, 3, making it a total of 8. Max number being 11, which includes the Laymen's, Jehovah's Witnesses, and The Free Man Group. There are other groups that came out of the Associated and Free branches, but I am focusing on the early ones of which DBSA is a part of.
 
                                   
 
That being said, you walked into a bear trap with this one for your claim. Let's see if you can hold to your so called source.
2 Questions for you since you provided this link:
Question 1 - If the IBSA is present today as you claim, then why do Free and Associated Bible Students and the latter, such as groups similar to DBSA exist after the schisms?? If the IBSA existed, there wouldn't be a need for such groups and JWs would not even be here. 
Question - 2 From your link, as you claim the IBSA is active today, can you name a few updates from the years 2020 and 2021? What updates have they done so far concerning God and or Scripture (Remember - the IBSA was a unified group since it's inception)? I can give you a list of DBSA activities [1950-1963], even recent updates [2020-2021], I have information on the other ones, but since I brought forth Res Lite, he will be my example. They differ from other Bible Students as well as the JWs themselves.
In fact, here is the most recent information about them:
Clearly this group is active.
So I will wait since you want to make make the claim.
As pointed out,
You'll have to explain why you suggest the IBSA exist today when there are different associated and free Bible students that came out of them, as well as the JWs. For if they existed, the JWs may not have even been existing as we speak.
Second, you stated they are active despite the fact their time has passed. If they are active as you claim, can you bring up any recent activity from them, by quotation and a source?
That is what is on the table right now.
I'll wait. and there is a meme for that one too, which seems to be right for this occasion:
                                                         
 
Also other facts, which shows us the IBSA eventually broke into various groups (You do not have to read it but it is here so people can see your folly)