Amidstheroses

A pipe bomb is basically a grenade. 
 
 

@Moise Racette@Anna@Pudgy@Thinking
@TrueTomHarley
Then why do we all know… What Noah’s daughters did to him? What Saul did to David? What David did to Uriah and Bathsheba? What Amnon did to Tamar? How Peter betrayed his Lord? What Ananias and Sapphira did with the profit earned from sale of their field? The list is extensive.
Isn’t there is a double standard when Jehovah is so honest and his people are secretive and deceitful?  It seems to be more a game of asserting one’s privilege and power to be “in the know” on matters, like this of general fellow feeling and concern for safety going forward. Aren’t we admonished to be imitators of God?

@Moise Racette@Anna@Pudgy@Thinking
@TrueTomHarley
Then why do we all know… What Noah’s daughters did to him? What Saul did to David? What David did to Uriah and Bathsheba? What Amnon did to Tamar? How Peter betrayed his Lord? What Ananias and Sapphira did with the profit earned from sale of their field? The list is extensive.
Isn’t there is a double standard when Jehovah is so honest and his people are secretive and deceitful?  It seems to be more a game of asserting one’s privilege and power to be “in the know” on matters, like this of general fellow feeling and concern for safety going forward. Aren’t we admonished to be imitators of God?

The best thing would be if we got the facts from the brothers at that KH. But it's like trying to draw blood out of a stone....
Is it all about trying to make us look squeaky clean again?
I wonder if this will be mentioned on our website....With the facts? 
Let's all have a bet, yay on nay?

If it makes you feel any better, I’ll concede that this statement was probably window dressing:  
maybe not pure coincidence. I’ll leave it to someone better qualified at math—maybe an engineer who got all the toilets to flush in his city—to calculate the precise odds.

@xero@Anna@Pudgy@TrueTomHarley
@Witness
There is some interesting and telling commentary on the TWITTER feed of the THORNTON POLICE DEPT, a local Police department which is one of the law enforcement entities involved in the investigation. GO TO BOTTOM OF NEWS STORIES BELOW TO SEE LINK TO TWITTER CONVERSATION / opt to follow this Police Dept on Twitter.

Copied off local Denver news station, 9News.com, online website:
3 incendiary devices found after murder-suicide at Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall

A woman was shot and killed by her husband, who then killed himself Sunday morning in Thornton.
https://www.9news.com/mobile/article/news/crime/active-shooter-jehovah-witness-church-thornton/73-d3e16d55-2169-40aa-9af1-896f63ce35dc

Article shared from the KUSA app, download the app today at https://www.9news.com/appredirect/.
 
 

Well put, Scripturally based statements….But this is more than a tragedy.
This is a strong MESSAGE - inherent in the actions that played out on that Kingdom Hall property in Denver.
The MESSAGE is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC EXPRESSION OF RAGE, EXASPERATION, DESPERATION and ANGUISH!!
The perpetrator left behind evidence of this: 1) His murdered wife  2) His murdered self 3) Three incendiary devices found at the scene 4) A 911 phone call at 9 AM telling that there was a fire at the Kingdom Hall
I was told that at a nearby Kingdom Hall Meeting yesterday, it was announced that the murder was carried out by people who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses and it was coincidence that it occurred on Kingdom Hall property. This defies logic. This appears to be deceit without regard for truth and accuracy.
I posit that it would be more constructive for the members of the two congregations that use that Kingdom Hall to ask themselves:
Do I need to be supplicating Jehovah for mercy in any neglected shepherding or lack of love shown to these desperate souls? Did the Shepherds seek the lost sheep as Jesus and Jehovah instruct? Was Justice given to their situation? Both local news sources, Denver7 and 9news, told in their original stories, which have not changed for over 24 hours, that the Police stated that the two murdered adults were former members of a Jehovah’s Witness congregation at this Kingdom Hall.
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen as a murder site?
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen to be set on fire?
The perpetrator was sending a message to Somebody (singular or plural) who attends THIS Kingdom Hall.
Let he who has ears, listen…
BTW I do attend and am a member of a Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Denver metro area. That does not mean that I know more than the police on site investigating the case. Irrespective of my geographic location, I am able to hear A VERY STRONG and MOST EMPHATIC message being sent by the perpetrator. 
@xero@Anna@TrueTomHarley@Pudgy

….. looking at the belly button, $60 seems like a fair price ….

Well put, Scripturally based statements….But this is more than a tragedy.
This is a strong MESSAGE - inherent in the actions that played out on that Kingdom Hall property in Denver.
The MESSAGE is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC EXPRESSION OF RAGE, EXASPERATION, DESPERATION and ANGUISH!!
The perpetrator left behind evidence of this: 1) His murdered wife  2) His murdered self 3) Three incendiary devices found at the scene 4) A 911 phone call at 9 AM telling that there was a fire at the Kingdom Hall
I was told that at a nearby Kingdom Hall Meeting yesterday, it was announced that the murder was carried out by people who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses and it was coincidence that it occurred on Kingdom Hall property. This defies logic. This appears to be deceit without regard for truth and accuracy.
I posit that it would be more constructive for the members of the two congregations that use that Kingdom Hall to ask themselves:
Do I need to be supplicating Jehovah for mercy in any neglected shepherding or lack of love shown to these desperate souls? Did the Shepherds seek the lost sheep as Jesus and Jehovah instruct? Was Justice given to their situation? Both local news sources, Denver7 and 9news, told in their original stories, which have not changed for over 24 hours, that the Police stated that the two murdered adults were former members of a Jehovah’s Witness congregation at this Kingdom Hall.
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen as a murder site?
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen to be set on fire?
The perpetrator was sending a message to Somebody (singular or plural) who attends THIS Kingdom Hall.
Let he who has ears, listen…
BTW I do attend and am a member of a Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Denver metro area. That does not mean that I know more than the police on site investigating the case. Irrespective of my geographic location, I am able to hear A VERY STRONG and MOST EMPHATIC message being sent by the perpetrator. 
@xero@Anna@TrueTomHarley@Pudgy

Well put, Scripturally based statements….But this is more than a tragedy.
This is a strong MESSAGE - inherent in the actions that played out on that Kingdom Hall property in Denver.
The MESSAGE is a HIGHLY SYMBOLIC EXPRESSION OF RAGE, EXASPERATION, DESPERATION and ANGUISH!!
The perpetrator left behind evidence of this: 1) His murdered wife  2) His murdered self 3) Three incendiary devices found at the scene 4) A 911 phone call at 9 AM telling that there was a fire at the Kingdom Hall
I was told that at a nearby Kingdom Hall Meeting yesterday, it was announced that the murder was carried out by people who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses and it was coincidence that it occurred on Kingdom Hall property. This defies logic. This appears to be deceit without regard for truth and accuracy.
I posit that it would be more constructive for the members of the two congregations that use that Kingdom Hall to ask themselves:
Do I need to be supplicating Jehovah for mercy in any neglected shepherding or lack of love shown to these desperate souls? Did the Shepherds seek the lost sheep as Jesus and Jehovah instruct? Was Justice given to their situation? Both local news sources, Denver7 and 9news, told in their original stories, which have not changed for over 24 hours, that the Police stated that the two murdered adults were former members of a Jehovah’s Witness congregation at this Kingdom Hall.
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen as a murder site?
Why else was this Kingdom Hall chosen to be set on fire?
The perpetrator was sending a message to Somebody (singular or plural) who attends THIS Kingdom Hall.
Let he who has ears, listen…
BTW I do attend and am a member of a Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Denver metro area. That does not mean that I know more than the police on site investigating the case. Irrespective of my geographic location, I am able to hear A VERY STRONG and MOST EMPHATIC message being sent by the perpetrator. 
@xero@Anna@TrueTomHarley@Pudgy

I like how all those "brave" folks say they go packing to church....and that none of this would have happened.... but don't they know there is the element of surprise? True, we don't know the whole story yet, but I doubt any of those gun toting people would have changed the outcome of this particular tragic story. It's obvious the husband only intended to kill himself and his wife....and did it pretty quick probably. 
 
 

I think the point the media is trying to accomplish is, it's another dark day for shootings in America. That apparent murder-suicide of "former" members of that congregation, doesn't necessarily detail if they were active or former members.
The politics of this world is, should Americans be allowed to carry guns in a house of worship. In some States, that's already allowed. Will a good guy with a gun be helpful in a shooting? 
That depends on the circumstance. There was a couple trying to make a point about guns in a church in 2017, the fool shot himself by accident inside the church. There was a shooting in a Texas church and a person with a gun shoot the suspect. A shooter in California was subdued by church members, no guns. One size doesn't fit all.
People that look at scripture in Jesus time might say, Some apostles carried swords. Yes! They did, but how many apostles involved themselves with Roman politics or an incursion in a synagogue. I recall, when Jesus was jailed, tried, and killed without so much as 1 apostle doing anything about it. I believe Christ words were, if my kingdom was part of this world, my servants would fight for me.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm." Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.
It is a tragedy, we should just leave it at that.

I never said that the world has not changed, or anything remotely close to that.
My statements stand as written. 
Everone who has ever predicted dates for the “end times” has been wrong. All the complex calculations have been a fantasy induced fraud.
Look out the window.
No Great Tribulation, Armageddon, or New System is evident.
Have patience. 
 
 

@pudgy : If the world is the same and has not changed - you have your pink glasses on or 

Yes - you have it correct - even recently in this year the watchtower said as you quoted but I felt a little discomfort (not critical) when I read it because the scripture in revelation 17 says this: " And the wild beast that was but is not,(UN) it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.12  “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 
So watching the world and who is behind the UN, I assume the government heads together with the organizations/corporations who have taken over the UN, is part of these ten kings. They will then be those (10).   
Some whistleblowers say that the NGOs belonging to oligarchs (whom these magnate bil/trillionaires donate to) is part of WEF and their policies are enforced by coercion, bribes etc.  Since they have "captured" the UN, member states and in lock step and not just this - the corruption has grown (tenfold- lol).
https://www.weforum.org/press/2019/06/world-economic-forum-and-un-sign-strategic-partnership-framework/ 

You know that "former member" and "was not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses" is the same thing in our eyes, and only depends on who is saying it. I.e a news reporter will say "former member" and someone at the KH may say "they were not Witnesses". 

My recollection, of our multiple congregation studies of Revelation over the decades, is that the ‘ten kings’ were representative of ALL the governments of the earth, who bind together in one hour (i.e. a short period of time) to support the ‘image of the wild beast’ (UN).
‘10’ in the Bible, representing “completeness”.
*** Insight, vol. 2 pp. 513 ***
“Ten. Ten is a number denoting fullness, entirety, the aggregate, the sum of all that exists of something.“
Correct me, please, Arauna, if I’m missing something.

My recollection, of our multiple congregation studies of Revelation over the decades, is that the ‘ten kings’ were representative of ALL the governments of the earth, who bind together in one hour (i.e. a short period of time) to support the ‘image of the wild beast’ (UN).
‘10’ in the Bible, representing “completeness”.
*** Insight, vol. 2 pp. 513 ***
“Ten. Ten is a number denoting fullness, entirety, the aggregate, the sum of all that exists of something.“
Correct me, please, Arauna, if I’m missing something.

TOP STORY TODAY:  DETAILS TO FOLLOW …..

This time before the flood marked the beginning of a specific time period of 120 years.... but 1914 marked the beginning of the time of the end......NO specific number of years is cited.
And specific "signs" were given by Jesus in Mathew 24 which marked the progress of this time period of the last days.  No-where does god give a specific time period for this time.  Indications are it will be unexpected and sudden... but certain signs will tell us how far we are in the stream of time.
One of the signs is the 8th king that will be suddenly set up in a ruling capacity with ten new kings.  This is when the "Image of the beast" - the scarlet beast - calls peace and security and Babylon the great is attacked. 
rev 17:11  "And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.12  “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast.   13  These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14  These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them."
 
Above we see that these kings are involved in the final war of armageddon. 
 
 

…..
 

Sorry if that was misunderstood. When I said "that's funny" I was thinking about the fact that TTH was trying to get this Lincoln/Grant discussion away from JW Only forums and finally put in a general non-JW forum. On this "third" attempt to remove it from JW references, TTH mentioned John Brown, and I wondered if someone might confuse this John Brown with John Aquila Brown. I was afraid someone would say: "Wasn't John Brown the man who wrote about the Gentle Times?"
For anyone who isn't aware of how this ties to JW beliefs, John A. Brown is mentioned in the JW "history" book, that we often just call "Proclaimers," quoted below:
*** jv chap. 10 p. 134 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. ... He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24.
That brief and only mention of him in our publications has confused some into thinking that John A. Brown mentioned 1914. He never did. Based on the above "Proclaimers" quote, some Witnesses have also thought that at least "he did, however, connect these 'seven times' with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24." He never did that either.
So far, the WTS has not corrected the misinformation.
To see what John A. Brown actually said, one can find the primary book about the topic here:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/BakZr75kBvYC?hl=en&gbpv=1
That's volume 1 of Even-Tide, above. Volume 2 is on Google Books, too, but it goes on to other topics:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/FokAQDtWwQgC?hl=en&gbpv=1
He also wrote this book:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Jew_the_Master_key_of_the_Apocalypse/NKPhpB9uKEUC
If anyone wishes to discuss his books, I can join. I've read two of them, and that discussion will be moved to a JW-related forum.

On the day of his hanging, John Brown handed a note to a guard written the day before: “I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood.” 750,000-person’s worth of blood was spilled in that Civil War.” It was blood spilled in payment for a moral failing, is what John Brown was saying.
Both Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S Grant, the 16th and 18th presidents of the United States, came to hold and express that view. At Lincoln’s second inaguration, after four years of bloody war, the reelected president expressed hope that the fighting would soon end, “yet if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the [slaveholder’s] 250 years of unrequited toil shall be sunk and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said 3,000 years ago, so still it must be said, ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.’” He did not exempt himself from guilt. It was not an ‘us versus them’ speech. How could he condemn the South for not ending slavery when he knew of no easy solution himself? 
Says Ron Chernow, author of Grant, the 18th president, as both general and president, also “deemed the war a punishment for national sins that had to come sooner or later in some shape and probably in blood.” I am reminded of how, at the Martin van Buren home, a National Historical Park site, the hatted ranger told me that no president after Andrew Jackson served more than one term because “the challenges leading up to the Civil War were thought to be unaddressed by those presidents.”
They were “addressed” in that war. Per Brown, Lincoln, and Grant, they were addressed with plenty of blood. As a punishment for sins? You’d get no argument on that from those men. There is such a thing as ‘community responsibility.’ 
That inaugural address of Lincoln’s was overall praised, though the non-religious persons grumbled at his “substitution of religion for statesmanship." He himself allowed that the address would wear well over time, but not immediately, since “men are not flattered by being shown that there has been a difference of purpose between the Almighty and them."
Tom Pearlsnswine, the fellow who mortified me by muttering about the ‘wiles of Satan’ when I was dumb enough to invite him to tag along with us on a visit to the dinosaur museum, the fellow who puts the dog into dogmatic, was not at all happy with this above historical discussion. “What does this have to do with the Bible?” he spouted. “These men were all bloodguilty,” he fumed, as he took another bite of his Bible sandwich. “Stay on topic!”
Even given his confidence in preservation of the union, even given his confidence in emancipation, would Lincoln not have agreed with the ‘bloodguilty’ charge? North and South were appalled at the phenomenal loss of life—far eclipsing the walk in the park some had first envisioned the war would be—and Lincoln, a man with a conscience, was commander in chief. Couldn’t he have gotten the job done with less blood? Wasn’t it his fault if he hadn’t? “If there is a worse place than hell,” Lincoln remarked in the aftermath of a staggering slaughter under the leadership of a particularly incompetent general (Burnside), “I am in it.”
Ten days before his death, Lincoln related a dream to friend and bodyguard Ward Leman. He was in the White House. “There seemed to be a deathlike stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. . . . I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along.” At length, he came upon a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments, surrounded by mourners and guards. He asked who it was. “The President,” was the guard’s answer. “He was killed by an assassin.”
Ten days later Lincoln was killed by an assassin. Ones who regard such premonitions as impossible deny the dream report, but Lincoln was well-known for relating portentous dreams.
(Written first, though as yet unpublished, on my own blog)

With a smattering of Vietnamese (because long ago we studied with a family and there was a makeshift group in our area—this was well before the organization began emphasizing foreign groups and congregations, Minh and someone were speaking Vietnamese in front of me. 
“Toi hue het” I said in my rudimentary way, which means roughly “I understand what you’re saying” (literally: ‘I understand all”—though I’m sure I have neglected accent marks here, which changes the meaning—sorry)
”You understand nothing!” Minh shot back in English.