Evacuated

59 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time

Seems there must be. It's definitely not for everyone, despite it's availability:

2 Tim 3:16-17. "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,  so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

Dan. 12:9-10. "Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

Ps.25:14 "The intimacy with Jehovah belongs to those fearful of him, also his covenant, to cause them to know it"

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

His focus is regarding Suicide

Yes, I discerned this, but this particular crime cannot be separated from the overarching results of mankind's Satan induced rebellion against Jehovahs sovereignty and His means of resolving the related issues.

The partial or combined effect of a range of factors,  Satanic influence, the handicap produced by inherited sin, and the hardening effect on the attitude of those deceived by, and encouraged in, sin's course, produces profound detriment in an individual's personality and life experiences. (Eph.2:2, Heb.3:13, Eph.2:3) This detriment is referred to as a "full recompense" at Rom.1:27, in the sense of an appropriate result of that course, a case of reaping what was sown, even though this may have been as a result of ignorance on the part of many.

Death being the ultimate recompense for sin, it's reversal due to the atoning power of Christs sacrifice and the execution of God's power does not necessarily remove the acquired personality of the individual receiving a resurrection back to life on earth. This of course was demonstrated by Jesus in the resurrections he was empowered to perform. Those whom he resurrected were who they were prior to death, and consequently died again later. Also, even after being brought to life in a spiritual sense, and having died to a former course of conduct, first century Christians were encouraged to "press on to maturity", to "put on the Christ" and as stated above to avoid the hardening power of sin's deception. There were those who sadly fell away from the faith at that time. Additionally, there were outright apostate and unrepentant rebels described at Jude 12 as "having died twice and having been uprooted".

So when humans are resurrected to life on earth as Jesus indicated at John 5:28-29, they will need to "put on the new personailty" and this will be a factor in determining the outcome of that resurrection as to whether it will be for them one of "life or judgement". Once resurrected, those humans will need to "bring every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" (2Cor.2:10). This may be more challenging for those who have not known or did not comply with God's purposes in their pre-resurrection lives as they respond to the leading of God' holy spirit at that time. However, "when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn". Some will have a head start in this, ("a resurrection of the righteous"), others will have to start a bit bit further back on the blocks due to their personality traits, ("a resurrection... of the unrighteous") Acts 24:15.

The determination of who will experience the resurrection at all rests entirely in the hands of the "Judge of all the earth", and "a man whom he has appointed" (Gen.18:25, Acts 17:31). The outcome for those, including any suicide victims resurrected, will depend on them complying with the direction and encouragement and spiritual healing they receive at that time. 

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

Oh...I see.

A few alternatives to the usual "wages of sin is death"

"Sin pays off with death" CEV

"For sin pays its wage--death" GNT

"For the payoff of sin is death" NET

"But the product of sin is death" Aramaic

Along with:

"for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin." Rom 6:7 (Weymouth)

Seems to indicate that death is indeed the penalty for sin. This was experienced by the first sinners I believe, as they were warned it would. Of course, the scriptures indicate that even now, those who are dead (in sin) can be made alive spiritually thanks to the atonement of Christ's sacrifice, thus enabling a reconciliation with God through him.

But it is apparent that the power of Christ's sacrifice reaches even into the grave in that "neither death nor life.....will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom.8:38-39. And "God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Ph.2:9-10.

So for me, sin results in death, figuratively, spiritually, and literally. Life, whilst originally a gift from God dependent on obedience, is still a gift from God, dependent on acceptance of the atoning power of Christ' sacrifice.

As for who will or will not receive the benefits thereof, including victims of suicide, there is "one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:42-43. The one decreed by God is best left to the execution of his assigned duties in this regard.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!)

Sound!!

30 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Provide some real life HARD FACT EXAMPLES, or even just ONE,   of where Jehovah had interfered with any modern Nation, Tribe, Organization, or individual person, in any way whatsoever

6 hours ago, Gone Away said:

As the originator and definer of "freedom", Jehovah never "interferes" in the the affairs of men

Someone else may wish to take up this gauntlet?

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If Jehovah interfered with modern day mankind, the word FREEDOM would be meaningless

This is the oldest argument. And the oldest lie is based upon it at Gen.3:4-5. It does need some qualification, as subtlety of meaning is an effective instrument in the wrong hands, as the arch-interferer is well aware.

However, I do agree with de-mything the nature of Jehovah's involvement in the affairs of men. He is no genie in a magic bottle, and neither does anyone, servant or otherwise, have a charmed life.

As the originator and definer of "freedom", Jehovah never "interferes" in the the affairs of men, but he does" intervene" in a such a way as to thwart the purpose and plans of those who seek to "interfere" with his. Part of the core message Christians proclaim in connection with the "kingdom of God" is a notification of this very fact.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who are those ALL

.."he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ . He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” LUke 10:37-38.

Start from the Scripture. You can't go wrong.
 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

would /will family, friends and JW congregation show comfort, understanding, compassion and love

Bit like the fruitage of the sprit (of which love is mentioned) "Against such things there is no law". Gal.5:23.

Like so many of such questions raised in this forum, this is a matter for individuals to decide. 

Dugogodišnja sloboda.

18 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

And who is this Shirley?

Get some glass in yer hornrims!

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jesus deliberately went on a known "suicide mission" and died because of that decision.

I think I know where you are coming from on this, but the example needs a bit more thought.

In John 8:22 didn't the Jewish religious leaders accuse Jesus of being on a suicide mission? "The Jews then began to say: “He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’’”

It seems a bit insulting to suggest that Jesus was on some sort of Kamikaze stunt. Even the term "suicide mission" seems to be wide of the mark in view of it's definition: "a task which is so dangerous for the people involved that they are not expected to survive."

It seems out of harmony with the thought of Psalm 16:10 "For you will not leave me in the Grave.You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit."

If Jesus had not been absolutely and correctly convinced of the resurrection in order for him to compete his mission, then surely he would literally have been "pitied more than anyone."?

The "known "suicide mission"" perception would only be in the mind of an unbeliever, surely?

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. 

At least that's the regular place that speech was intended to come from. ?

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

no problem at all from me about what jws want to do with their money and time.

Glad to hear. None from me either.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

condemning others for the same practices

Still trying to figure out what practices you are observing.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The congregations are only allowed to keep so much then have to hand over the rest. 

I'm not surprised you went, the way you describe your experiences. You seem to have been in one of those cookie congs. At least you have been able to stop playing the hypocrite. It must have been a great relief to actually come out.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

selling Kingdom Halls here in the UK

The more the better. I'm glad to see the back of old fashioned, run down, half empty, under-utilised buildings, particularly in countries that can afford better. A bit of pruning never hurts.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

reduction in both magazines and book publications, inc Calendars and Day Texts.

And good riddance to all these unecessary bits of paper. I don't even need a "ministry" bag any more most of the time or silly plastic sleeves, let alone the saving in shelf space. And I'm actually going through Bibles in only a little more than 12 months now. Much more effective approach.

Anyway folks, have the last words if you wish. Nothing personal if I don't respond further on this thread. I'm glad at least you have each other. Bye for now. ?

53 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I do believe even the individual congregations are not allowed to keep their own money now. They have to hand over any 'extra' that they may have been keeping for repairs etc...  So remember folks when you put your money in the little box, you are paying to keep those pedophiles hidden in the congregations................  

You're outa touch my baby, my poor old fashioned baby........

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

The fact of the matter is that it is exactly the same thing, to cover costs associated with whatever religious events the group puts on, no matter if they are Catholic/Hindu/Christian/jws.

Look, even the most basic comprehension of this topic demonstrates its pathetic reasoning. Covering costs is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses are about, hence a per capita assessment, which makes perfect economic sense. You are presenting this (covertly) as if it were comparable to a levy, such as the tithing arrangement so favoured by some, or, as explicitly stated as a "passing the plate" excercise similar to that carried out customarily by others. I am not going to argue the case further on that point, but I would suggest a more careful marshalling of facts is really in order here.

To compare Jehovah's Witnesses discussions on necessary contributions for the funding of religious activities to those of organisations  such as "Catholic/Hindu/Christian/" (and I am sure you would include other groups in your representative listing), seems a benighted position to take.

Literally decades ago, the following observation was made by respected academics, R. Stark & L. R. Iannaccone, regarding the prudent use of resources by Jehovah's Witnesses: 

"In 1992, the combined efforts of the Protestant churches of the United States and Canada sustained 41,142 overseas missionaries at a cost of more than $2 billion a year (Siewert & Kenyon, 1993). That same year, there were 3,279,270 “ overseas” Jehovah’s Witness publishers (nearly all of whom were native-speakers of the language of their mission area) operating on a total budget of $45 million (Yearbook, 1993: 33, 40). That is 80 times as many missionaries for a tiny fraction of the cost." (Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol.12, No2, 1997).

Jehovah's Witnesses are quite happy to contribute both time and cost-covering money to furthering the interests of what they consider to be God's Kingdom at this time. And that includes direction on costs, along with information on cost-effective and efficient methods to make financial contributions to cover those costs.

So basically, Get over it! It is patently obvious that value for money when it comes to the activities of Jehovah's Witnesses is beyond criticism. Not beyond jealousy however, (Ez.38:11-12).

These other groups you mention appear to be covering far more than costs.

5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

That must be because it DOES SAY THAT.

I almost thought I could agree with you, but this is not a logical conclusion.

13 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I think you are dodging the topic

Are you reading minds again? Tsk! Tsk! 

I don't need to dodge this topic? It makes perfect sense to me. You just can't accept that telling people how much it costs to run an assembly is quite normal and practical. That's not how you feel. Not everyone feels the same way as you do. You will just have to accept that.

19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

it’s not our job to judge who will or wonÂ’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in JesusÂ’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.

 

9 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Unless it has changed in the past 2 years

Don't know about changes, but that was the official position about     as far as I can see .

Of course statements like the ones you quote could be misunderstood by onlookers to suggest that organisational membership is all that is required for salvation, but that is not the view of anyone taking the Bible seriously. If your agenda includes making that point, then in the light of Matthew 7:21-23, (quoted earlier), it is a good point and is duly noted.

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you two would be going over some dialog in your minds of how jws are so much better because the jws don't do that.

Now you are reading minds, (two at the same time it seems), and drawing conclusions on your results????

I know you are hurting over something, but I don't think you are on a healing route here.  ?

9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what do you want me to do about your struggle? 

Probably best to let each one carry his own load in this regard.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

the official stance

it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

not the most straightforward or most likely reading

Nevertheless, possible. I've never been one for what seems the straight(forward) path always, as it can often be the opposite, with an undesirable outcome. However I will acept that there could  be some in Corinth who did not share Paul's censure of that man's wrongdoing  in view of the  earlier tolerance.  

5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Is it your position that only jws, as they are defined and structured today, will be left after the 1000 year reign? 

This was addressed to @JWInsider , but I would like to cite a couple of scriptures very much in the consciousness of all true Christians today. They are:

1Co.11:12 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."

Matt.7:21 "“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will"

These have a bearing on who will "left after the 1000 year reign.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

On 9/23/2018 at 3:08 PM, Jack Ryan said:

How is this different from "passing the plate" that my dad always boasted that JW's did not do?

its not

I am struggling to see any comparison between reminding brothers of the modern-day, fluctuating costs of running an assembly and "passing the plate"???

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Paul expected that a majority would rebuke this particular man, given the circumstances. He did not expect 100 percent agreement about the way a "disfellowshipped" person was treated.

Just wondering if this is the right slant here. It would seem your suggestion is that there is a majority, not unanimous. view in the congregation that this man was deserving of exclusion.

Could it not be read that the descriptive "majority" is actually a reference to those NOT engagaged in the immoral conduct as contrasted with the "minority" who were?

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is very common attribute in JW circle that some JW like to apply on each other. How many ambassadors serving in one foreign land? One i think. So for today World Jesus need only cca 238  (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html) ambassadors to represent Jesus Kingdom. 

Silly is the only word to describe this kind of reponse. Either it reflects a lack of knowledge of the scripture, or an attempt to confuse those who suffer from that lack. Galatians 3:28 makes clear that

"There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female: for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus."

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Or WT can build 238 Betel for each country, and with some number of stuff working there you need some 2380-7140 people who will support Kingdom interest before devil worldly kings, presidents and dictators. All other Kingdom population can do something but can not be ambassadors. What all Kingdom people can do, and have do is to PRAY, or as verse say, to SUPPLICATE for each other and for unbelievers.     :))

Ovo, ne razumijem?