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Evacuated

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Posts posted by Evacuated

    "You can find the ‘waters of truth’ at your local Kingdom Hall"

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    And I'm not one who believes we as Witnesses are handling every possible Christian ministry in the world that helps attract persons to Christianity.

    What really attracts people to Christianity is God's word as found in the scripture and by extension on that, it is Jehovah God himself. 

    "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him" John 6:44

    I sought out Jehovah's Witnesses because of what I read in the Bible. I was never "called on". I am sure that is the experience of many.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    there is more than one way to set up a kind of equivalence so that one might be seen as the near or practical equivalent of the Lord himself.

    That is what I mean. Or metaphorically speaking. there is "more than one way to skin a cat", (or rabbit, or pineapple, depending on your sensibilities).

    I think most of the observations made regarding quaint and peculiar eccentricities of behaviour exhibited in what JTR terms as the "85% of irrational cluelessness" are covered by Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 13:9-11. Unfortunately, as a body, we are pretty inept at judging when we actually make the transition to "manhood".

    There is sad anecdote regarding this scripture for me. In the 1970's, a very prominent, "anointed" brother left the organisation and by weird coincidence came to live in my street. He had now become a medical doctor. I met him in field service and he did not reveal he was a former witness, and as he now was heavily bearded, I did not recognise him until we had conversed for a while. I realised he must have been associated at one time, because he had what I call post '75 syndrome among other spritual difficulties. I figured out who he was and he said he enjoyed seeing how long it would take for a witness to realise he was an "ex" as he put it. He liked observing the reactions. 

    Anyway, he used 1Cor. 13:9-11 as his reason for parting company with Jehovah's Witnesses. He felt that error could be always justified as the "traits of a child". Interesting viewpoint I thought. Sadly, he died of HIV related complications within a few years.

    I don't share the quantiative, pareto-type assessment JTR makes, as I think the quality of what is sound in our belief far exceeds in proportion that of what is queer, odd and Ripleyesque. But it does seem to indicate that far more than "proof" or "evidence" is at work here.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    I think you might be confusing "evidence" and "proof."

    Probably not worth a debate here: 

    proof
    pruːf
    noun
    1.evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.
    synonyms:    evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, validation, attestation, demonstration, substantiation, witness, testament.

    evidence
    ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns
    noun
    1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
    synonyms:    proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, authentication, attestation, documentation

    I think what I meant was that people draw a variety of conclusions from different marshallings of the same facts.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Anna said:

    Do you think it's possible to have a good and close relationship with Jehovah, and yet be wary sometimes about what the Slave says?

    Wary may not be completely the right reaction because it sounds a bit untrusting and tense  (wary= feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems.)

    Jehovah counsels us appropriately I feel. 

    Apply Psalm 146:3 : "Do not put your trust in princes nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation."

    Balance that with Ps 4:4: "Be agitated, but do not sin. Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent"

    and 1 Cor.13:4, 7: "Love.....believes all things."

    Then we will be happy.  ☺️

     

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Anna said:

    How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false.

    Is it more that the conclusions were false? Evolution and creation use the same "proof", just draw different conclusions.

    Here's a question.

    Since 1975, 10.5 million have been baptised. Add in the av pubs of '75 gives 12.6 million. The average publisher count for  2017 was 8.2 million.Allowing for the current crude death rate, 1.7 million have died since '75, so at least 2.7 million have gone AWOL or disfellowshipped. (Approximations of course).

    Why is this?

    Is it: Lack of confidence in leadership? Disobedience to moral requirements? Lack of desire to preach? Preference for materialistic goals? Fear of man? Expected "end" took too long? Stumbled over other's immorality? Believe apostate distortions?

    Or is it: Don't believe we are in last days? Don't believe 1914CE was when time ran out for Satan? Don't believe Governing Body are spirit appointed and directed? Disillusioned over end-time teachings?  Suspicions of financial irregularity? Don't agree with "shunning" non-dependant relatives? Don't agree with prohibition on primary blood components only?

    Or what?

     

     

    144,000

    in Topics

    Posted

    16 hours ago, John Houston said:

    A lot of malarkey.

    Malarkey: American English, of unknown origin; perhaps from Greek μαλακία (malakía, “stupidity, idiocy, nonsense, bullshit”).

    This word always makes me laugh.

    This whole subject is another of those areas strong on detail but thin on fact. It seems that some are almost obsessed over identifying who is or who isn't anointed and also get rather bogged down in the murky waters of "times and seasons" as they relate to the rather specific time periods in Daniel and the Revelation.

    In my limited experience, most of those I have known with the heavenly hope have little doubt over it, and don't actually shout about it. I can see the necessity to make such information public however in the face of Christendom's apostasy and the need to preach the current kngdom message. 

    I never entertained such a belief myself, even when educated as RC, and apart from a brief period of extra-terrestrial notions during a pre-"truth", pyschadelic era which I no longer remember, I have always had my feet very firmly planted on terra firma.

    Discovering the Bible teaching that there would be two destinies for mankind was pretty reassuring. Understanding that everlasting life on earth was actually a God-given prospect was enlightening to say the least. Considering that there would come a time when a unique group of prospective, earth-destined, Armageddon survivors would appear on the world scene at a time close to that event, and that individuals with both hopes would "overlap" (there's a contraversial word) and share space with each other on earth for a while was pretty exciting. Over time, I came to realise that my personal inclusion in that post Armageddon population, (given God's approval of course), could be either by survival or resurrection, depending on time and unforseen circumstance. This was a welcome, albeit sobering element to the rather euphoric notion of imminent deliverance.  

    It seems pretty clear that the majority of Jehovah's servants since the time of Abel have entertained the prospect of living forever on earth. A small number since Pentecost 36CE have been personally invited to go to heaven for a specific purpose, a number as small as 144,000 of chosen, tried and tested individuals, destined to rule with Christ in heaven itself.

    Of the rest of the population since Abel, apart from those with a genuine heavenly calling, there is no difference between the interim destiny of Jehovah's servants and the vast majority those who were not, as made clear at Acts 24:15.

    Pe-Israelite, there were many worshipers of Jehovah, some we know, some we don't. During the time of the Israelite nation, it was quite possible for people of the nations to join with Israelites in the worship of Jehovah as the record makes clear, and although they could have an unrestricted relationship with the true God according to the parameters of the time, they were restricted as to cetrain privileges and prospects, many of which they may well have had a limited perception given the appalling lack of spirituality amongst Jehovah's named people at times.

    So, on the basis of these sketchy details, it seems that to suggest that since the first Century there would be (hundreds of) thousands drawn to Jehovah on the basis of a genuine heavenly hope to which they then proved unfaithful is, quite frankly, mularkey.

    Despite the attempts of false Christianity to obscure the Bible's message, individuals were irrepressible in their loyalty to what they perceived of the message of scripture. Some like Wycliffe and Tyndale we know by name. There must have been many we do not. 

    With the heavenly hope held out with little alternative over centuries, it is no wonder that many who embraced the scriptures would profess this even in the more scripturally post-Reformation enlightened days, but to suggest that the majority of these, right down to the 20th Century were actually genuine anointed and destined for Gehenna due to their apparent unfaithfulness is more...mularky! They were just God-fearing folk with wrong ideas. And Lord knows we have had a few of these even amongst genuine anointed ones in more recent times.

    I have met genuine Christians who were asociated with the Bible Students prior to 1935. They uncomfortably partook of the emblems prior to understanding the significance of Revelation 7:9-10, because there seemed to be no alternative. They were greatly relieved to learn that there was an earthly destiny held out to active worshippers associated with the congregation and not just something to be achieved by non Christians through a resurrection, something apparently denied if you knew you were a Christian, but entertained a heavenly calling inappropriately.

    So long and short of it for me until proved otherwise is that many have been drawn to Jehovah through the centuries, including the Christian era. Some have had specific enlightenment into God's purposes and have been greatly privileged in His service to the benefit of others. All faithful anointed are included in this group, despite their small number of only 144,000. But there have been countless others known only to Jehovah who have been attracted to whatever truth was available at the time and have faithfully held to whatever their perception of it was.

    Interestingly, many who thought they were possibly of the "great crowd" were actually not. They have died and are in the same postion of any other servants of Jehovah since Abel, but currently dead. Was it not holy spirit that revealed their destiny to them? And yet they are not deemed "unfaithful" are they?

    As for those intriguing time periods? I'm waiting for a bit more clarity there.

    Malarkey!  I love that word! ?

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

    "Were some statements made that were more definite than advisable? Yes. But there were cautionary statements, too, and many Witnesses understood the importance of those cautionary statements in harmony with Jesus' words that the times and seasons are not in our jurisdiction."

    This is perfectly reasonable, but still a bit whitey-washy. I would be more inclined to something like: 

    "Were some statements made that were more definite than advisable? Yes. And indeed, there were some influential ones who made firm assertions based on pure conjecture. This even led some to take rather rash life course decisions that they later regretted. But there were cautionary statements too. Many Witnesses, who understood the importance of those cautionary statements in harmony with Jesus' words that the times and seasons are not in our jurisdiction, were able to take a more rational and measured approach to life in the face of the frothy enthusiasm generated by end-time speculators"

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    Whether it was the intention to have the public and other Witnesses conclude that the writers of Watch Tower publications were including themselves might become clearer if we look at a few more examples.

    Some of the conclusions drawn by  jw facts  on the basis of "supporting" quotes you provide here appear to be preformed before proven.

    For example I can't quite see that an accusation that the Watchtower "blames it's members" for believing erroneous claims regarding 1914 or 1925 has any sinister element. After all, the Watchtower has no mind of it's own. It is only an instrument of communication. As an organisation of believers use the Watchtower medium as a channel, then it could be said to reflect the collective views of it's members. So in voicing blame for it's members having erroneous ideas, surely it is blaming itself? And in doing so, it differentiates between some members who did have wrong expectations and some who did not as you rightly point out. In fact, the cited example of Alexander H. Macmillan in saying "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October" (1914) is a pretty frank admission of error by one who was very prominent as a Bible Student, and would likely have included others of similar prominence in the collective "us".

    I  can't  comb through decades of publications in the way that someone like Paul Grundy, a self-confessed and dedicated JW opposer does. Actually I do not think it is worth the effort to dissect claims of this nature because they appear to be driven by a personal agenda borne out of many years of distorted influence and repression. Objectivity seems impossible.

    Just one statement (first random one I found believe it or not) was revealing:

    WT 15/4/1916.

    "The Lord did not say that the church would all be glorified by 1914. We merely inferred it and, evidently, erred."

    Who said that? Charles T Russell.

    With regard to your citing examples of those who hype up the message of doom aspects of things well, Yes, I agree that this certainly happens, and not just at assemblies. There are a range of different personalities serving Jehovah at this time. Publicity regarding the imminent action of Jehovah's kingdom is the priority at this time and many are the ones driving it. But can't we think for ourselves here?

    I have been on field service with one of the anointed who shouted through the letter box that an uninterested  householder would be destroyed at Armageddon. Haven't you?

    "Read the Bible Daily" was the best bit of advice I was ever given. I have come across some odd ideas (and people) over the years, but nothing where I couldn't sort out the sense from the nonsense, with the help of the one who flicked the wheels off Egyptian chariots (Ex.14:25).

    The bigger the organisation's footprint and digital breadcrumb trail becomes, the bigger a target it is for weirdos, critics, dissenters, opposers and aahh......the $ound of Money!!! It's enough to drive you Mad!

     

     

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    And what did Peter do when he realized the significance of his own three-time denial of Christ?

    What did Christ do?

    3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    millstone that is turned by a donkey

    Didn't Rutherford hang the donkey round his own neck at some point?

    3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    I think it might be a good thing, up to a point, to have a sensitivity approaching bitterness.

    I agree, as long as it is a repentant kind, not a self-pitying, malicious, vindictive kind. As you say "combined with compassion". Rather like the compassion of Jesus, who cured "every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity among the people" including those which may have been self-inflicted. Spiritual healing, more prevalent today of course, would have the same characteristics I am sure, and would include the correction of OCDD (Obsessive Compulsive Date Disorder).

    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    Of course, all of this stuff specifically about 1975 and 1925 is nearly ancient history.

    Amen to that, although any first-hand experience and insight regarding  the behaviour of brothers at these times is both interesting and valuable. I remember the 1968 WT which, along with the Oct 8, 1968 Awake (Is It Later Than You Think?) were probably "toolbox" of the day items for many brothers at the time, and, along with their over-emphatic enthusiasm, influenced my early impressions of the imminence of Armageddon. These views were, thankfully in my case, adjusted before too much damage was done.

    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    tied to a time schedule

    This is a very relevant caution. But of course needs, like everything else, a balanced and sober approach. It seems to me that we need to find the "sweet spot" between these two extremes:

    "we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here"  2Thess.2:1-2.

    as opposed to:

    "know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”" 2Pet. 3:3-4.

     Dates come and go, and probably always will (Gen.8:22), but "the one who does the will of God remains forever" 1John 2:17.

    Jonah was disappointed when things didn't turn out the way he wanted, (Jonah 4:1), so this is nothing new for God's people. I got over it, presumably you did, so there is no reason why we should not expect others to. We can all be thankful that the possibility remains for all who wish to stay alive far longer than '75, whatever the means. Rev 22:17. ?

     

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