Evacuated

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

example, if the Bible says God is not like us men, we should hold to what the Bible says, not turn around and say God suddenly changed his mind and became a man, God Almighty who is incorruptible being able to taste death when the Bible says he cannot, things of that nature, the very reason why people are critical of truth, context, passages, cross-references and a strong conclusion that is of the Bible and not of mere man understanding.

There is a very interesting line of reasoning here which appears to be based on expressions such as: 

• "God is not a human male" Nu.23:19 (NET Bible);
• "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Is.55:9; 
• "O my God, my Holy One, you do not die" Hab.1:12;
• "Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively." 2Pet.2:2

I wonder how many who promote  false sectarian doctorine about our Creator Jehovah realise that He sees their conduct in the light of the Greek word aselgia.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

it's a misuse of the intention of the verse to use it to prove he is LESS.

I agree. Underestimating the position and role of Jesus  is definitely a hazard for those who seek to combat the attempts made by those who seek to overestimate it. The Scriptures were simply not written for that purpose, as stated by John the apostle: 

"But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." John 20:31

Thanks a lot @JWInsider. Those are exactly the type of references I was looking for.

4 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

may I ask what your disagreement is with the quote “it did not start with JW’s”

None.

I believe I asked  if there are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

That doesn't mean I disagree with it.

Perhaps to clarify: 

Are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses." other than what is stated in the Bible?

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Per Google there are now about the same number of Jehovah's Witnesses in the USA as Presbyterians: 1,415,053 active members (2017) -- Presbyterian Church (compared with about 1,200,000 Jehovah's Witnesses).

These are interesting figures.

I suppose we need to define activity as well. I mean, what the average JW accomplishes in carrying out God's will for Christians today against what the average Presbyterian accomplishes. Bit like looking at the difference in spending power of the same amount of money in one country's economy against another. 

Oops! oiff topic!

6 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

“it did not start with JW’s”

Interesting quotes, but still too light on detail. Dates and source examples needed.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"the greater scheme of things."

Sorry if I was a bit unclear. My point was that, regardless of the downs experienced by Jehovah's people on earth, like the incarceration and reputation maligning of the GB in 1918, and regardless of the reasons or blame for those negative events,  the current child abuse crisis will make no difference whatsoever to the successful outworking of Jehovah's purpose, (which includes mankind), "the greater scheme of things". 

We can see that, despite the dire situation and bleak prospects for the IBSA if viewed from a prison cell in 1918, the outworking of events in connection with Jehovah's people on earth in the 100 years since Rutherford's incarceration likely eclipses even the most optimistic "vision" that any of the GB members may have had from their prison cells at that time albeit based on the Bible indications that the good news WILL be preached worldwide, regardlss of any weapons formed against it. What has taken place since then:

• the worldwide expansion of the preaching activity and the response to it,
• the development of Bible knowledge and understanding
• the development of the organisation,
• the publishing infrastructure,
• the expansion into a range of media channels,
• the quality of the published information both in content and appearance,
• the court victories in the field of human rights,
• the defiance of secular dictatorial bodies,
• the enduring and surviving of secular attempts to suppress
• etc, etc

has demonstrated that the success of Jehovah's people in carying out Jehovah's will on earth, has continued regardless of external attempts to suppress, malign, interfere, and despite it's being directed by imperfect humans with the inevitable wrong turns, dead ends,  false alarms, that such direction at times has resulted in. 

I suppose I could have used a picture of Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden instead of the Rutherford mug shot. On a greater scale, there was a pretty hopleless situation for Jehovah's people on earth. There actually weren't any!! And that was the fault of those who once were! Yet in "the greater scheme of things", Jehovah was not phased. His way of working out matters includes many negative experiences for those who worshipped Him, regardless of an anlaysis of blame and reason. But, good has come from every situation experienced (for those who remain faithful), and notably, good on occasion has been administered by those who did not worship Jehovah, and were not a part of His people at the time.

My point was that the current Child Sexual Abuse issue will be the same as past crises for Jehovah's people. It will be resolved, successfully, and regardless of how and who is involved in this, it will make no difference to the outworking of Jehovah's purpose, and, microcosmically, will benefit all involved.

That's why I welcome any intervention, from any source, to resolve such a matter, whilst abhorring those who stoop to such a level of crime, regardless of their protestations of remorse. Let Caesar use his sword, in this case!

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the greater scheme of things

Did you realise that by this I mean Jehovah's overall purpose, not the overall progress of those who worship Him here on earth?

30 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

• View all 112,267 matches for Presbyterian Sexual Abuse

I did the exact same search on Jehovah's Witnesses Sexual Abuse and got this:

• View all 3,787 matches for Jehovah's Witnesses Sexual Abuse

Are these repeat or individual reports?

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have it from a reliable (Witness) source

I would like to trust this (the reliability of the source that is) but .......no..... I'm too suspicious of reliable (Witness) sources..I need all the w's before I even start weighing it up. Proverbs 14:15 "The inexperienced one believes anything," ?

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That means that Theocratically, we can trust the judgement of the secular authorities judicial system MORE THAN OUR OWN.

This is an interesting concept and has a bit more to it than it's context.

For the congregation, in the absence of an alternative, there is a 2 witness rule. Now the debate about what does or should constitute the 2 witnesses is being tested elsewhere.

But what is it to accomplish? That one judged as guilty as charged and unrepentant is excluded from the congregation. Pretty pathetic sanction when compared with the gravity of the crime wouldn't you say? Aw, the poor little molester's relatives won't talk to him no more What a shame.....not.

There are probably other crimes that could be similarly characterised. The congregation today only has a spiritual role and the sanctions against crime can only be handled in that context. Isn't that why Romans 13:4 says current secular governments serve as "God's minister", and "it is not without purpose that it bears the sword"?

There is no need for 2 witnesses to report an allegation of child abuse to the secular authorities, although the inconsistencies of requirements and conflicting legislation make it very prudent for legally-inexperienced congregation elders to seek legal advice in carrying out this action where it is not specifically mandated.

The congregation is simply neither authorised nor equipped to carry out the kind of investigation and victim support needed, or to try, and if found guilty, impose sanctions that God's secular minister has within their remit  at this time. And if God's secular minister finds such a perpetrator guilty of a crime of this nature, then we can trust that the finding is sufficient once the appeal process has been exhausted. The perpetrator, if found guilty, has carried out a henious crime and will likely find that the hands of Caesar are a lot rougher in the short term than the hands of Jehovah via the current congregational structure, to which stoning is no longer an option.

So it will always be true that Theocratically, we can trust that Jehovah's current arrangement, which allows for the secular authorities to execute judicial decisions, is always going to be better than our own. And, thankfully, they answer to him, not us, as how they are discharging their responsibility.

7 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

firstborn means ‘Pre-eminent, Ruler, Sovereign, First in rank’.

And ....first-born......

3 hours ago, Cos said:

adding “Jehovah” more than 200 times

A 200x restoration of the sacred name of God to His own word pales against the stealthy, deliberate, and culpable removal of that same name more than 7000 times by a collection of scheming and pharisaical thieves of worship and their supporters. No matter what mealy-mouthed reasoning they might cling to, based on their  self-awarded, so-called scholarly recognition, it is difficult to see how they will escape the withering condemnation of the true assessor: "I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!" Matt.7:23.

4 hours ago, Cos said:

I think

This is a truthful and worthy preface for all your postings on this particular subject.

Notwithstanding, I hope that Paul's words have some application here: "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear witness that they possess an enthusiasm for God, but it is an unenlightened enthusiasm" Rom.10:1-2.

?

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can you post anything on this please?

6 hours ago, Ronny Stoyan said:

DNA-Fingerprints

Only one person in every 10 million million (10,000,000,000,000) will have a particular STR profile. With the world human population estimated at only 7,100 million (7,100,000,000) it is therefore extremely unlikely you will share the same profile as someone else, unless you are an identical twin. 

(STR = Short Tandem Repeats, small repeated portions of DNA used in profiling.)

Sounds more effective as an illustration.

5 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Dutch Parliament agrees unanimously on a investigation.

I can't for the life of me see why this kind of topic should be presented in such a sinister and threatening manner.

At the worst, investigations could reveal nothing. 

At the best, evil people who have wormed their way into the congregation will be exposed and ousted. The naivety of those inadvertantly contributing will be shown up and addressed. Processes will be reviewed and refined. Hopefully, victims will be acknowledged and gain some real benefit from the whole experience (although, sadly, this is not guaranteeed).

Admittedly, there are implications in terms of financial costs, time and attention of a large number of people, emotional impact on victims and their associates, reputational issues around perpetrators exposure, issues around mishandling and injustice due to distorted exaggeration driven by the bias and prejudice of opposers and those easily swayed by opinion, and the inevitable media brouhaha.

But really, what's to fear or to lose? Nothing changes in the greater scheme of things, but the immediate benefits far outweigh the costs.

I mean I am sure Bro Rutherford's experience was unpleasant at the time, but what was lost? And what was gained?

On 7/2/2018 at 1:00 AM, The Librarian said:

Could there be more than one Messiah

Don't you think "fingerprint" is a bit of an old hat illustration now?

In 1934, CD Lee stated in his Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology article "Finger Prints Can Be Forged":

Is there a more effective way of illustrating that Messianic prophecy fits Jesus uniquely?

On 6/30/2018 at 10:29 PM, Jack Ryan said:

first time in WT history

On a serious note, is this really true? I seem to remember female voices elsewhere on teaching videos like...Um... What Happens at a Kingdom Hall??? I've sen that at the KH. There's probably more...

This seems like an empty scoop???

This is confusing to say the least. And it seems everybody involved is confused.

Are the medical folk saying that a patient can only  be relied on to have made a personal decision on non-blood medical management at the moment of medical intervention?

Are they also saying that if the patient is unable (through unconsciousness etc.} to do this, then the medical personel involved at the time of intervention must impose their own view of what constitutes an acceptable medical procedure, even if this contradicts that which a patient has previously expressed as their wishes?

1 hour ago, Cos said:

This is just another irrational claim

Claims of irrationality have always been levelled against witnesses who have experienced Gods great gift. "And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler" Acts 5:29.

Compare: " “He has gone out of his mind." "Mark 5:21

                   " “You are going out of your mind, Paul!" " Acts 26:24

1 hour ago, Cos said:

the intentional adding to Scripture, for example the NWT adds “Jehovah” (and much more) to the NT

 If you believe that Jesus would have followed the superstitious and insulting pattern set by religious leaders in Israel of excluding God's personal name from His own word, then I feel you may well be spiritually floundering in human tradition.

For example, to think that Jesus would have quoted from Ps.110:1and intentionally ommit to include his Father's personal name beggars the imagination, and indeed is an affront to the "Faithful and True Witness"!

Why, even The Catholic Living Bible (with Impramatur) includes a pronouncable version of the holy name of the True God at this verse, "Jehovah said to my Lord the Messenger, "Rule as my regent - I will subdue your enemies and make them bow low before you." Ps.110:1. Was this an addition to the text?

Then, sadly, they acquiesce to the weight of religious traditionalism and, with red letters, render Jesus's use of this verse as "God said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet." Matt.23:44.

No, the restoration of God's name in a pronouncable and specific form is to do justice to the text, and to follow in the pattern of someone of far more worth than scholars with their inconsistency , someone who stated in prayer to his heavenly Father "I have made your name known" John 17:26.

(I have included this response to your reference to NWT restoration here as you raised it here, but, with respect, I think the discussion around the inclusion of God's name in Scripture belongs elsewhere as a topic.)

22 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

... NARRATED BY A WOMAN!!!!! *gasp*

My giddy aunt! They'll have 'em driving trucks at Bethel next!

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/activities/construction/women-in-construction/

3 hours ago, Cos said:

only an inept author would attribute personhood to the Holy Spirit without being clear that personhood was not meant to be literally ascribed.

There is, of course, one spirit in the Bible seeking equality with God............ some of his assistants assumed ineptitude of Bible authorship by seeking to add text to Scripture to clarify their doctorine. So this is nothing new.

On 6/28/2018 at 9:01 PM, JW Insider said:

There was a time, not long ago, when the increase in branch office personnel was supposed to remind us of the urgency of the times

Ah! Those good old, bad old days (sigh!) 

Jesus Christ: "No one after drinking old wine wants new, for he says, ‘The old is nice.’” Luke 5:39

Will Rogers: "“Things ain't what they used to be and probably never was.”"

Seriously though, change is a-foot! Chatting to a brother working on coding in Warwick last month, he said that the drive is to simplify as much as possible to get as many as possible out into the field, witnessing in as an effective a way as possible.

A good call is no longer an invite in and a 1/2 hour Bible lecture. It is now a 2 minute chat with a commitment to return and continue the conversation. Certainly boosts the number that get a witness each morning.

In fact, not a few people I meet now don't even want literature. They just want internet links.

On 6/28/2018 at 11:08 PM, JW Insider said:

the ability to put tiny, tiny notes in the margins

Yes, I used to miss that. I used to use a Rapidograph for doing mine. But I find that the note taking on the tablet serves very well and certainly makes a good substitute as alterations and adjustments are a piece of cake..even if you cannot now write between the lines (Good to back up to the cloud pretty regularly though!)

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I believe the final clause in James 1:27 is more related to doing good works without the taint of worldly motivation, desire or hypocrisy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying more related as if there was an unbalanced emphasis somewhere. I think we are all pretty clear that an organisational membership alone is no sole criteria for God's approval. But it is clear from Scripture that purely motivated good works is not the sole criteria either.

I suppose to get the real balance would be to define the "world" that we are to be without spot from. This would be the same world founded with the children of Adam and Eve, born outside of Eden and outside of an approved relationship with Jehovah, conceived and born in sin. Additionally, this same" world" consitutes the human family ruled over by the one called Satan who is referred to elsewhere as the "ruler of the world". As it's "ruler", he dominates it's thinking, aims and objectives, practices, institutions and whatever else you can think of. Being that humans were made in God's image and endowed with conscience, Satan has always had a bit of a problem in getting all of them to do what he wants , particularly when they are  exposed to the will of Jehovah in one form or another. So he has had to rule for the most part in a deceptive, coercive, and oppressive manner. His additional hatred for all things related to Jehovah has led him to devise ways means of insulting or blasphemiing Jehovah with the knowing or ignorant complicity of both spirit and human creatures. However, as a right to rule issue is at the core of this  endeavour of Satan's, often beneficial results of varying degrees have been provided by his "world" as he has sought to harness the godly side of human nature in his deceptive attempt to dupe and win the support of conflicted mankind.

This "world" under his control has been sophisticated into all manner of systems by it's ruler, all manifesting the spirit that characterises it's originator, essentially one of rebellion against godly standards and purpose. It produces fruitage or behavioural characteristics rooted in the biblical descriptions of "works of the flesh" (activities driven by unbridled , sinful inclinations), and manifest in the deterioration of human relations descrbed as characterising the "last days" though of course not limited to that specific time period.

So that's the world to remain unspotted by. That obviously includes having the proper motivation for good works if they are to be approved by God.They can clearly be performed with wrong and corrupt "worldly" motivation, rendering them valueless to the "doer", even if many receive benefits from them.. But it also includes much more than a pure motive with a clue from the words of Paul at 2Cor 6:17 on this matter

So, as long as we are clear that community cleanness, as well as personal integrity, is essential in our having worship that is acceptable to the Father, all is well.  ?