Evacuated

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

this time make it big enough for all of us

Y'know.....I think thar may be a prophecy in thar ....................somewhar......????

John 11:51:"though, he did not say of his own originality; ....................................... he prophesied"!!!

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You cannot expect evil, determined people intent on

MURDERING YOU .... to follow ANY signs or ANY rules !

NONE WHATSOEVER!

That is the one thing Snowflakes never understand about EVIL.

Quite true. The commitment to evil is quite often unperceived by those who do not share it.

Anyone who expects peaceful behaviour to dissuade evil intent has obviously not considered Ezekiel 38:10-12:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.”  It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth."
 

37 minutes ago, Cos said:

your claim that Ellicott is “both erudite and articulate” is in clear opposition to your other claim

Which has been clearly demonstrated as your opinion, not based on fact.

43 minutes ago, Cos said:

To tell you the truth I can’t see how that would cause you offence,

stereotype: A widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.

I have no problem with being referred to as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I do object, mildly, to being stereotyped in any form. However, references such "knee-jerk", "automatic" I find have the potential to be intellectually insulting, patronising, and offensive, regardless of the context. But, don't misunderstand, whilst I find them offensive in nature, I am not actually offended personally to any great extent. I have heard far worse even from those who claim to be guided by Christ.

30 minutes ago, Cos said:

The article by Richard E. Averbeck, I believe, gives a far better account than the one present by Lea Sestieri.

Well, I'll have to leave it there Cos. I can see that supporters of the Trinity have differing views on their belief. I find live discussion on the subject infinitely more useful though, not least because it is less prone to misunderstanding. There is no shortage of participants in this regard so, like you, I have other priorities and will be giving more attention to them.  

This has been a useful exchange and I am infinitely better equipped to understand the Trinitarian perspective.

Thanks for the time and input.

Regards 

S.D.G. 

 

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

As we all know, the watchtower refuses to let any one see any of that info., but one of the governing body did say their not bringing in as much money as they are expected to spend.

I'll take that as a No in answer to the question "do you have an income and expenditure breakdown?".

The report link provided presents a confusing "dissertation" suggesting that the Watchtower organisation receives vastly greater returns of finance than it's expansion programs are estimated to require, that deception is used on the part of it's leaders to extort money from it's members, at the same time as they are supposed to be "not receiving as much money as they are spending".

If this is the basis for what is considered to be "serious discussion", then forgive me if I sit this one out for a while until something of substance is presented.

11 minutes ago, Watcher said:

So in other words.....youre closed to any information that has been shown to you in the past and whats more...you are not open to view any information objectively that has or will be shown to you in the future? - Got it. 

Assumption alert!!! And you probably are aware of the acrostic version of ASSUME?

Far better minds than I have seen here (so far) have discussed these issues at length elsewhere. I am keenly awaiting additional insight relating to their deliberations as and when it arises. If there is something relevant that appears here, I think this comment indicates my interest:

25 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

But I haven't seen anything resembling such so far.............................................................................

15 minutes ago, Watcher said:

living in high luxury

Wow! You have a pretty low standard of what constitutes high luxury!

16 minutes ago, Watcher said:

I can only assume that "Gone Fishing" is not looking for a serious discussion

I'll have a serious discussion with anyone who is able and willing. But I haven't seen anything resembling such so far under this thread. Only the same old hoary chestnuts thrashed out ad nauseum elsewhere.

 I am sure something will surface eventually though, even if this question is addressed:

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Regarding the costings, do you have an income and expenditure breakdown to justify this statement: 

On 11/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, Matthew9969 said:

they are not receiving as much money as they are spending

 

On 11/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, Matthew9969 said:

I have a two part question:

A two part answer would be appropriate here: 

1. Why not? If they believe Paul's description of themselves that they are "ambassadors substituting for Christ" (2Cor 5:20) and that Christ is the ruler of Jehovah's Messianic Kingdom (Rev.12:10), then why not have a suitable embassy premises? And if they believe in an imminent intervention by Jehovah as described at Dan 2:44, and the salvation of all suitable humans as described at Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13, Revelation 7:10, 14, then why not build a suitable premises for the direction of the various necessary scriptural duties requisite to preparation for that intervention? (Matt.28:18-20) And do you think they believe this building will be destroyed by Jehovah if it is in existence and operating in harmony with His requirements when that intervention takes place?

2. Regarding the costings, do you have an income and expenditure breakdown to justify this statement: 

On 11/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, Matthew9969 said:

they are not receiving as much money as they are spending

18 hours ago, Cos said:

Firstly, I have asked that you explain why you accused me of being offensive on one of the posts, but you have repeatedly ignored my request. So, to be fair, if you answer me on this then I will respond to your request, is that a deal?

It is worth stating that it is certain of your remarks I find offensive, not you, yourself.

It is this kind of statement  below that I find offensive, along with your "knee-jerk" attributions elsewhere. Another habit, your stereo-typical prefix "all JWs" this or that, has an offensive effect also.

On 10/24/2017 at 1:05 PM, Cos said:

automatically apply the Watchtower teaching

On 10/31/2017 at 9:59 AM, Cos said:

Sorry, but maybe you just don’t grasp English; to claim that you considered Ellicott’s comments  “both erudite and articulate” and then say “I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning” is a contradiction

Cos,  You appear to be making this statement on the basis of at least two erroneous premises.

1. You assume, it appears, that to state something in an articulate manner means that the statement must be unequivocally understood by the hearer. This is simply not the case. Even nonsense can be expressed in an articulate manner. Otherwise it could not be judged as nonsense. Additionally, if this were true , there would be no need for an articulate person to be questioned on the meaning of what they stated, or there would be no need to seek verification of what they stated.

2. You are taking two quotes from my words and are comparing them in an inappropriate and unqualified manner.

Regarding the first, my assessment of Mr Ellicott's literary skills of expression as "both erudite and articulate" is a subjective judgement based on what I have read of his writings. It is presented as a contributory reason for my selection of his phrase describing "the spirit  of God" mentioned at Gen 1:2 as "divine operative energy".  Due to it's  both memorable and relevant nature, I find it a particularly articulate phrase.

The second statement you juxtapose, namely that "I can't be sure of Ellicott's meaning", was in response to your assertion that my use of his descriptive phrase "divine operative energy", shows that I somehow want to align his meaning with my own.

To emphasise that I had no intention of seeking posthumous confirmation of my views by alignment with those of Mr Ellicott, I stated “I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning”. Underpinning that statement is the fact that understanding of a dead man's views can only ever really be assumed, as verification is impossible. This was also to emphasise that, even if I did want the meaning behind Mr Ellicott's expression aligned with my own, (which I do not), this would have questionable value, as it would, by it's very nature, have to be a "best guess" meaning.

"best guess": "A guess that is based on all the knowledge someone has, and is therefore as close to being correct as he or she can make it; the most likely deduction given the available information" (Oxford Dictionaries).

So, I reject your assertion that these two phrases represent a contradiction on my part. 

I find the quality of your analysis on this a little disappointing Cos. I would like to attribute this to your only superfically reading the postings due to pressure of your commitments, rather than a display of the rather unpleasant spirit described at Matt.22:15.

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who normally would have spend money to buy building in this old  wicked system just before 1975 Armageddon?

Only Jehovahs Witnesses because only Jehovahs Witnesses not destroyed??

3 hours ago, Cos said:

ignores the dictionary definition

YOUR definition my friend. You are not the arbiter of articularcy, particularly when the one who articulates is .....dead.

British English: articulate adjective

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I will be happy to show you his picture.

SCHHHHHhhhhhhh!!!

 

3 hours ago, Cos said:

so when you say, “I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning” this is a contradiction to you saying his comments are “both erudite and articulate

In your opinion I accept.

However, I remain unconvinced by your assertion that absolute comprehension of another person's expressions is the arbiter of designating that person's expressions as articulate. Absolute comprehension of what a dead person has said, gleaned only from their writings, is actually impossible. It can only ever be an opinion, no matter how resolutely held.

Hi @Cos

12 hours ago, Cos said:

maybe you just don’t grasp English; to claim that you considered Ellicott’s comments  “both erudite and articulate” and then say “I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning” is a contradiction.

Maybe not. But I thought I was pretty clear about my opinion on Mr Ellicott's writings.

On 10/22/2017 at 8:12 AM, Gone Fishing said:

However, I retain my opinion that it is not possible for me to verify with absolute certainty what his (Charles Ellicott's) views were because he is not at liberty to comment on my understanding of them being, as he is, dead.

Therefore, my understanding of his expressions remains as my considered opinion only, and it is also my considered opinion that he was both erudite and articulate in his expressions. However,  I do not share all his views no matter how well he expressed them. I understand them enough to disagree in a number of areas.

However, I remain particularly impressed with his choice of words in his phrase "Divine operative energy" in connection with holy spirit. I think he should be credited for this, which is (for me) a remarkable example of "silver-tongued" speech. (The word "articulate" actually has a broader pallette of meaning than that which you presented earlier.)

My opinions may not be shared by all, but nevertheless, in the absence of convincing evidence otherwise, I am holding to them for the moment.

Thanks for your input. Your articulacy of expression enables me to crystalise my opinion.

S.D.G.

 

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't know....they are probably not thinking about it much since they are long gone and deep into this system of things and its reasoning.

So how do you class the gripers on the forum?

1 hour ago, Anna said:

they think they could have got an excellent education, made lots of money, and had a good time

Interesting deviation????? What do you think those who actually did this are now thinking????.... And do you think there are any who actually managed to do  this while they were (quote @Anna) "waiting, and waiting, ....and waiting for the paradise" without wasting their lives?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Brother Sydlik said we ought to just scrap our entire chronology and start from scratch

Sensible comment this. But probably not unanimously applauded. I would say though, still necessary, even at this late date.

Once these time periods are properly understood, I have a feeling there will be no ambiguity at all, and a lot of people will be saying "There. I always said it was something like that!".

That time isn't now however............ 

But, don't know about you, but these are issues that are SOOOO not a reason to have shaky faith over. And what is all this about:  

33 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Prophecy clearly says that Jehovah will punish his own people

???? What on earth for????

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

  2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

While I was growing up in a jw home, participation in school sports was a big no-no

Actually, this was Matthew 9969 who said this. I did not grow up in a jw home.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

While I was growing up in a jw home, participation in school sports was a big no-no

Young people in my congregation had great games of football with Bethel workers over the years, even in the Bethel grounds, so I suppose, like many optional and non-essential recreational matters, it depends a bit on parental and local attitudes.

This seems to be a current view.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/teenagers/ask/sports-what-should-i-know/

3 hours ago, Cos said:

I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning

Yes. That has nothing to do with his articulacy.

43 minutes ago, Cos said:

Your claim was, “I can’t be sure of Ellicott’s meaning”; so this statement then was not factual because now you admit that if the writer is articulate then you do know his/her meaning regardless if you agree or not?

Sorry Cos. I just don't think you understand the meaning of the word or how it can be used in the English language. You may wish to have the last word on this, but I will not be responding to any further discussion on the subject of Mr Charles Ellicott's indisputable articulacy.

1 hour ago, Cos said:

Jehovah can and does “fill” everything, and still that is not enough to contain Him (1 Kings 8:27) because God is infinite

Thank you for explaining your understanding of this passage in such an articulate manner. It is an interesting viewpoint. Not one I share, but interesting nevertheless.

5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

You don't need any "special" humans to unlock its message.

But there are a lot of rather ordinary ones trying to lock it up unfortunately.

1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

His  traps  are  very  dangerous,  bec. long  time  perfect  sophisticated....

There's another trap. “The average person now touches, swipes or taps their phone 2,617 times a day. Everyone is distracted. All of the time”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia

2 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

when JW meet with ex members, accidentally meet on the street or similar. JW member suffocate, represses this Natural conscience (to show love or let me to used wording in "simplified edition" :)))) to show just polite behaviour, bon-ton, "social" maturity) and not want to say even Hello to ex JW.

Your clarity in explaining this dilemna indicates your experience of it , it would seem.

Others of us do not have this problem. We know the difference between those once among us who now oppose and condemn as does their father the Devil, and those once among us who may have succumbed to the "machinations" of that one. Do you?

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

wrongly interprets "persecution" on JW as fulfillment of  Bible prophecies.

????

Persecution is a feature of the age, and is indeed a feature of man's inhumanity to man. Ecc. 4:1 "Again I turned my attention to all the acts of oppression that go on under the sun. I saw the tears of the oppressed, and there was no one to comfort them. And their oppressors had the power, and there was no one to comfort them" 

Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted for carrying out the will of Jehovah, nothing else. Other groups (not just religious) are persecuted for any reason you care to mention., often simply because they are minorities.

Please "engage brain before engaging keyboard". (Don't know who said that).