Evacuated

As we have returned to the 1880s, and the subject of pre-flood spirits, I am surprised this group haven't yet made an appearance in the thread:

Atlantean-Society met here in the 1880s under the direction of Edwin Murrow.
The modern-day Atlantean-Society was formed in 1883 under the direction of Edwin Murrow, the founder of today’s Society.

 

 

3 hours ago, Anna said:

"scorched Earth policy"

A futile policy . But nevertheless a common ploy in Satan's world.

Actually, all of his machinations are futile anyway. Prov. 21:30: "There is no wisdom, nor any discernment, nor any counsel in opposition to Jehovah".

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And just to help you keep @Anna's interest, she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district.

I thought that including the Wikepedia link, (Burned-over district) might accomplish this?

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

mostly YES!

You might misunderstand that my suggestion encompassed all who were referred to by Anna and TTH. Their comments encompassed humans in general as did mine. Of course Christians, particularly the kind referred to in 2Cor.2:11, are not ignorant of Satan's designs. But, sadly, many other humans are. Further, human intelligence is no protection against Satanic machinations.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums.

Nothing explicit I would agree, but I think there are sufficient examples to sensitize a Christian conscience of the need to keep clear of certain items. And even the most liberal stretch could not deny that the Devil is able to deceive humans into believing that objects might have supernatural efficacy, even if those actual items did not. However, that is not to say that Satan or demons cannot utilise material objects, as opposed to possessing them.

Have you ever experienced demon activity yourself first hand,  other than through the obvious workings of this system of things? I think as you were raised in a theocratic environment, probably not. Those who have would most likely share a view different from the rationalisations expressed in some of these postings on the subject.

@Anna

There is always the danger in going off-topic in these fascinating discussions. As this one has resulted from just that problem,  I will include a view that connects a discussion of Satan's tactics with the actual topic element "a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward"

I do not see it as a coincidence that the peculiar conditions prevalent in New York State (Burned-over district) that provided a backdrop to the emergence of Charles Russell and his early Bible Students should be accompanied by the "plethora of curiosities" you refer to. The awakening of interest in end time prophecy and the return of Christ would be sure to attract the interest of spirit entities set on preventing the light of truth emerging from God's Word.

There! A connection to hopefully keep this intriguing thread on track! 

2 hours ago, Cos said:

how can you blasphemy “a force” or a “field of energy

Rev.13:4. How can you blaspheme a name or residence?

1 hour ago, Anna said:

the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have.

I would say............why not?

The Devil and his demons failed to establish their claims that Jehovah does not deserve to rule and that intelligent creatures will not serve him out of love. They lost the war, way back, in 1914 (Rev:12:9).

Rememember when Jesus gave his parable of the wheat and the weeds? He said that "the field is the world" Matt 13:38. This world has been explained as the world of mankind. Satan has always been out to capture the hearts of men, to divert the worship to himself. He had a great time as the "ruler of the world", but for the most part, this is only by deception. The majority have not served him out of love.

But part of the good news is....well, basically,  he, er, lost the war. In doing so, he lost his position as ruler of the world! He and his demons actually failed to acheive their real objective back then. But did he roll over like a beaten dog? Not likely. He has gone off to "wage war with the remaining ones" of those "who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus." Rev.12:17.

So I see all these manifestations of Satan's power whether real, imagined, or fabricated, regardless of how puny and pathetic they appear to be, as Satan conducting an attempt at a "scorched earth policy" on  "the field". This "illegal" practice is well described in the Wikepedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth.

Satan is looking by "fair means or foul" to divert or turn mens hearts away from the truth as he seeks to blind "the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through"(2Cor.4:4)

As you rightly say, he creates situations to cause men's hearts to "become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life" (Luke 21:24). Worse still, he seeks to "cauterize" (check the Greek) the conscience of men in this endeavour (1Tim. 4:2). It's not just about attacking God's people who might be (or feel they are) too clever to fall for "a circus show". It's about maintaining control over those who are not God's people by any means possible, including "circus shows", real or imagined.

Satan, having lost everything, has nothing to lose, and importantly, nothing to gain, except some sort of temporary "fix" when he observes or causes anything that insults or ridicules or hurts Jehovah. His very existence accomplishes all of those. The maintenance of "ignorance" in the hearts of men accomplishes all of those. What happened to that Sikh family? I do not know. Satan won that battle at the time, regardless, or maybe because of, the theatre, but did he win the war? 

Like all other tactics employed by this "fallen star", Satan, it is uncomfortable for those enduring, fatal for those succumbing, but, basically, futile to the one employing it. Remember, "we are not ignorant of his designs" 2Cor.2:11. But those we preach to are.

On 9/22/2017 at 9:17 PM, Shiwiii said:

Did you not read the letter? There IS a requirement per publishers. 

The letter is not addressed to publishers.

On 9/22/2017 at 9:17 PM, Shiwiii said:

On 9/22/2017 at 8:51 PM, Gone Fishing said:

Actually,  an amount is specified so that the brothers don't give too much.

LOL, you really think that? my goodness.

Well they are not asked to give more are they? and Jehovah's true worshippers always have to be asked to stop giving don't they?

On 9/22/2017 at 9:17 PM, Shiwiii said:

like what? food, clothing? humanitarian aid? Never seen it come from the organization, individuals...yes, but not the org. 

That's good......"don't let your right hand know"........etc

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Surely these fallen angelic creatures are far more intelligent than us, and therefor would surely use more sophisticated methods than haunting houses and making things go bump in the night to turn people away from Jehovah.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why do they not manifest themselves in the more educated areas?

Interesting questions as we attempt to rationalise the "machinations of the devil" and his demons! Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their childish tricks?

Another experience I had was with a Sikh family in London in the mid 80s. I met them in field ministry. They were experiencing encounters with what they believed was a spirit in their house. The manifestation they all experienced comprised of noises and bangings for no reason at night. Two of the teenagers in the family were being thrown out of bed inexplicably and one showed me that he had bruises and scratches on his back amd arms which he said occurred on a number of occasions at night with no visible cause. I could only advise them to study, to learn about prayer and to learn about Jehovah, his purposes. and how to draw close to him by means of following Bible counsel in all areas of life. It was difficult to know where to start with them. Their experiences preceeded my contact with them so could not be connected with them "starting to study the Bilble". They were looking however for a quick fix, some sort of exorcism ritual I think. They did not take up the offer of a study anyway,  and moved away from the area. I do not know what became of them. I took them at their word because they appeared to be genuinely frightened by their experience. Their story and concerns were consistent over a number of visits with no apparent agenda.

Jehovah gives us sufficient information in Scripture to warn us about spiritism, its origin and danger. It's not difficullt to understand the need to keep well clear of its manifestations. Trying to analyse how the Devil works over and above the information provided in the Bible seems to be playing into the hands of one who is "far more intelligent than us" and dead set on our lasting harm.

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

spiritistic magicians around the time of Jesus' human life were using the pronunciation "Je-ho-vah" (in addition to Ye-ho-wa, Yahuweh, Joweh, Jove, etc) as a way to invoke the spirit of magic.

More recently too :     

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, this man was just as likely to find that the reason for the demon possession, in his mind, was that he found an old Truth book under the bed

12000 of them! Getting rid of them  might only have be the start of their nightmares however. 

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

no one ever warned the brothers that a used car (or car parts from a junk-yard, or a used lawn-mower, etc) might just as well be demon-possessed.

Well yes, I suppose that there is the possibility that seances were held in garages and old vehicles. I always had my suspicions about those pairs of dices often found hanging from the driving mirror. 

2 hours ago, Emanuel Tarimo said:

According to the list no any Jehovah witness present that is good

Not quite.

18 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Walter Schneeweiß 

Reporting on the fact that Austria had implemented the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights of July 2008 regarding recognition of Jehovah's Witnesses in Austria, the news source, derstandard.at,  stated that: 

"It's not over yet"

8 May 2009, 12:43

Recognition is "milestone, anyway, Jehovah's Witnesses demand change in the legal situation

Vienna - After their recognition as a religious community, the Jehovah's Witnesses continue to pose a change in the legal situation. The recognition is a "milestone", Walter Schneeweiß, a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses board, on Friday at a press conference. 

http://derstandard.at/1241622251341/Zeugen-Jehovas-Es-ist-noch-lange-nicht-zu-Ende

The Austrian Jehovah's Witnesses website also mentions this report.

https://www.jehovas-zeugen.at/Presseschau.19.0.html

So it appears legal recognition obligates to some communal participation as a state recognised religion. Attendance at this meeting of 09June 2009, coming hot on the heels of the announcement of recognised status the previous month, was probably judged as expedient at the time. Walter Schneeweiß represented the branch.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

( I for a very long time have  thought it was amazing that the human body is a bag of water, with a valve AT THE BOTTOM, to release gas pressure ...)

Although it would be true to say that a modification in many cases has placed a very effective gas -blasting vent at the top of the body, a few inches below the eyes........

 

Anyway, stay on topic! This thread is about passing plates...not wind!

6 hours ago, Anna said:

“mass hysteria” regarding spiritism prevailed into the 1990’s

Yes I know about this. Initial Bible studies still point to the Ephesian incident at Acts 19:17-20 to encourage "cleaning house".

I have to say I would be wary of dismissing this outright as "mass hysteria", although obviously these things have a way of taking hold on a certain mentality. Anecdotal I know, but I do have a couple of experiences in this area. Here's one:

When I first had a Bible study, I was staying in a premises in Central London. I was subject to a repetitive nightmare of disturbing images and a feeling of someone in the room. This took place a number of times in such a way that I could not ignore it's repetitive nature. Not being one for disturbed sleep, I was concerned about this, so on the strength of a paragraph in the old Truth book (p145, para 14), I searched the room. Under the couch I was sleeping on I found....a Ouija board! I dispensed of it and ..you guessed it...no more sleepless nights!

13 minutes ago, Anna said:

Nor would I ever suggest Russell and co were con men, but rather, naively led along with the fascinations of that time, and maybe sometimes influenced by a lack of sleep.

Or maybe just did what any of us would have done, had we been there. We can all look back on our "naivety".

17 minutes ago, Anna said:

Edgar Allan Poe, although brilliant, an alcoholic and drug addict,

I always found it fascinating that the Greek word translated as "spiritism" (pharmakeia) has no relationship to the word "spirit" (pneuma) or any of it's derivatives.

Googles quick reference result is interesting: The ancient Greek word “pharmakon” is paradoxical and can be translated as “drug,” which means both “remedy” and “poison”. ... From the same root derives another word, “Pharmakos” (Greek: φαρμακος), which becomes later the term“pharmakeus”, meaning druggist, poisoner, by extension, wizard, magician or sorcerer.

Of course the relationship  to our modern "pharmacist" can easily be seen.

5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

What do you call a "recommended amount the average publisher needs to contribute" if not a beg and petition?  Oh wait, I think I get it now. It is not a beg or petition, but rather a demand and requirement, an additional law given to the people.

Don't think the publishers were actually given an amount as a requirement were they? Nope....Oh!Oh! argument fails.

Actually,  an amount is specified so that the brothers don't give too much. After all, when funds are needed for anything in Jehovah's work, the floodgates just open up until we say "no more want". That is what the Scriptures indicate would happen in the true religion ...isn't it? Say you need something in Jehovah's organisation and it all comes pouring in!  I know the "others" are all very jealous of this, in fact it is actually one of the end triggers I believe:

Ez. 38:10-12.

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. 11 You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” 12 It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth.
(Jaws theme playing in the background)

Meeting of representatives of all churches and religious communities in Austria (recognized by the government) with Federal Chancellor Faymann 

On 9 June 2009, Federal Chancellor Werner Faymann met with the representatives of the 14 religious communities recognized in Austria in a joint dialogue on social cohesion in Austria at the Federal Chancellery in Vienna.

In the picture (vLnR) Gerhard Weissgrab , Lotha Pöll , Walter Schneeweiß , Mesrob K. Krikorian , Anas Shakfeh , Michael Bünker (Evangelical- Christian Church) Bishop John Okoro (Old Catholic Church), Federal Chancellor Werner Faymann , Bishop Nikolai Dura (Greek Orthodox Church), Cardinal Christioph Schönborn (Catholic Church), Bishop Anba Gabriel (Coptic Orthodox Church), Viktor Wadosch (Mormons) 
Oberrabiner Chaim Eisenberg (Israelite religious community).

http://www.forum.foref.info/news/oesterreich/religionsgemeinschaften-fer-gemeinsamkeit-in-esterreich/index.html

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

The Australian government will also decide on the appointment of the elderly.

Bit of confusion on the use of the terms elder(s) and elderly, but otherwise makes sense.

Good example of Caesar at last doing his job as God's minister. This can only work to the benefit of the congregation.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

If the appointees act without this card, this results in extreme fines. Possibly even a prison sentence.

And, hopefully, disqualification to serve the congregation.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

Will this spread to the rest of the civilized world?

Hope so.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

they say they do not ask for money, I have just shown you that they DO in fact ask for money.

So what? Money was asked for by Moses, David, Paul, Jesus had money given in support of his work. It was always genorosity in imitation of Jehovah that was emphasised as now. No need  to "beg or petition" is the phrase actually used. We don't have bingo, lotteries, Punch and Judy shows, book sales etc. nor accept money to atone for sins.

By the way, There ain't no DOs no mo'

On 9/20/2017 at 8:18 AM, Gone Fishing said:

great care must be taken in the manner and context in which this is shared.

With regard to the "dirty linen" type of posting, this quote carries the nub of my point and excludes the covering over of such information. This renders your dilemna as irrelevant to my comment in that you are posing the issue of 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the old dilemma about whether we should reveal truth in response to falsehood, or just ignore it.

My counsel (as you term it) circumvents this issue. It actually has a focus on the manner in which we deal with this kind of information, not the appropriateness of  it being a matter for discussion.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

our moral standards and expectations are very high and we are expected to judge those people who leave on their own as persons who just didn't want to live up to those expectations.

I have always put a lot more store on the activity of the enemy we all face than this statement encompasses. What people "want" is not the only factor in why some Witnesses leave. Paul warned us about this at Eph.6:12: "we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places." There are actually many of such casualties as well as those who just rebel. And a good number return.

My evaluation of the information about some of Rutherford's beliefs as being "rubbish" and "nonsensical gobbeldygook" is with regard to the beliefs themselves, not the fact that they are reproduced, (or was that clear already?). These, the "pyramidology" gibberish, and other quack medical infatuations I had some knowledge of before I ever was a Witness. They factored pretty low on my interest agenda, other than engendering a mild amusement and curiosity along with "phrenology", "snake-oil", "electromagnetic devices" and the like. As years went by I came across a number of Witnesses captivated by other ideas such as "iridology", "reflexology" even "homeopathy" and the rest. None of this has served to deflect my interest in God's word, even though some whose scriptural knowledge and application I greatly respected had what could only be described as a "missionary zeal" for these rather dubious disciplines. 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's a common human failing to want to be seen as better than we really are.

Common  I'm sure. But I have no desire for us to be seen as "better than we are". I think we are just great as we are! In fact I'd like to see much more made of our eccentricities, but not in the spiteful, slanderous tones of the sour, crab-apple sarcastics that abound on the internet. More like making room for a separate exhibition at Walkill entitled "Stuff We Once Believed And Some We Still Do!" along the lines of "Ripley's Believe It Or Not!" That might do a better job of diffusion anyway?

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

One of the most dangerous problems among many Witnesses that we can see today is the equivalence that is made between the Governing Body and Jehovah.

Some people have all the fun! I wish I could actually meet some of these weirdos! Like these:

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

On this forum, several persons who have presented themselves as sincere Witnesses..........they would rather follow the Governing Body into KNOWN ERROR 

Must admit I have seen this kind of attitude here but haven't met it in the flesh. Some people have all the fun!

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think it's important to show that we are not trying to please men

Agree entirely and I also agree with the scripture texts you quoted, with some clarification:

Ps 146:3: "Do not put your trust"......      

In men of any station to provide salvation. Obviously, trust in others based on love and respect is an essential quality for relationships to prosper.. (Compare Pro.31:11).

Luke 16:15:  "For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight."

Considered "exalted" in the sense of meeting the criteria of the Pharisees and scribes to whom Jesus was talking and those who were impressed by them. These money lovers and their toadies, estimating what should be viewed as "elevated" by their own corrupt standards, esteemed Jesus as worthy of a "sneering" response at this time. Jesus showed that, contrary to any distorted respect men had for these charlatans, Jehovah's "disgust" was the reality.

30 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Then you would agree that in times, God will discern when to give enlightenment to fulfill his set course (spiritual food at the proper time). And that NOT “all” of us would be in a position to receive such enlightenment.

I certainly agree with this.

In fact, the very anointing received by some true Christians is a very specfic and selective communication from Jehovah (and Jesus) by means of His spirit. Information found in the Bible is, of course, integral to this.

I would be pretty sure that my understanding, and particularly application, of scriptural passages such as 1Jo. 2:27 and Rom.8:16 would certainly differ from that of Bro. Jackson for example. And yet we are both right. 2Tim. 4:8 indicates another example of specific and personal enlightenment by spirit.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

So in summary, to say that one of the anointed may have received some kind of communication from one of the anointed in heaven regarding the great crowd is not in line with anything we believe regarding that kind of communication happening IN OUR DAY. The way Jehovah communicates with us today is through the Bible.

This well explained. Is there any room for angelic direction in the preaching work?

4 hours ago, Anna said:

She will go up to people while they are having a conversation and tell them  she has had a communication from heaven telling her such and such

Unlike "Albert"  she would get my attention.....if only to check the empty compartments of her dossette......

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/20/september-23-end-of-world-theory/

Yeah this one is everyewhere. I have a return visit with a proponent of this idea. On September 24th.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The acceptance of communication with the spirit world for the purpose of gaining secret knowledge, no matter who initiated it, might be spiritism

Regardless of the exceptional nature of the communication from the spirit realm regarding the sacred secret of the Christ, it is, nevertheless, what it is. "In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit" (Eph.3:5).

I am afraid that this attempt to define spiritism thus fails for me in it's vagueness:

"The acceptance of communication with the spirit world for the purpose of gaining secret knowledge, no matter who initiated it, might be spiritism. This does not mean that all forms of communication with the spirit world is included" quote @JWInsider

It fails because secret knowedge was imparted to humans from the spirit world and the process by which it has been done cannot be classed as spiritism. Interestingly, "into these very things, angels are desiring to peer." (1Pet.1:12). I will have to give some thought to rewording the definition to be more specific and clear, in a word, definite!

As for Brother Albert, I do not care if he feels he gets special communication from the spirit realm any more than I would question if he claimed to be one of the anointed. (That claim in itself is in response to a communication from the spirit realm is it not?). My concern would be more focused on what those "revelations" were to comprise, whether or not they were in harmony with the Scriptures as we currently understand them, and whether or not he was seeking to promulgate any of these "revelations". He would also get my attention if he were to promote attempts to engage in communication with the spirit world outside of the acceptable channel of prayer.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It is a work of the flesh, because people have a desire to claim special knowledge, have their ego stroked, to claim special privilege, or special gifts. It's often because they want to be able to Lord it over their fellow man.

I go along with this. I also think that "spiritism" (druggery as it is anciently termed) is also a work of the flesh because it panders to some perverted aspect of fallen humanity in the same way that it's proponents sought after flesh for unnatural use in the days of Noah (Gen.6:2).