Evacuated

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is now allowing the nations to be shaken (refugees moving everywhere)

I agree with your views expressed very well here. Just to add that whilst indeed the movement of people is due to the "shaking" of this world system, Jehovah's "shaking" of the nations (Hag.2:7) is by means of the preaching that we do. Personal focus and involvement in that activity as much as we can at this time will serve greatly in our endeavour to keep ourselves in Jehovah's love. 

3 hours ago, The Librarian said:

This ruling clears the way for the Russian government to seize the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ assets and property throughout the country.

( I know your are just quoting a report here, @Librarian)

This baseless dishonesty reminds me of the spirit shown in the despicable treatment Armeniens received at the hands of the crumbling Ottoman Empire during the First World War period. 

United States Ambassador Henry Morgenthau remembers that Interior Minister, Mehmet Talaat Pasha, asked him to assist in persuading the New York Life Insurance Company and other firms that had issued policies to now “vanished” Armenians to escheat their benefits to the Ottoman state, since the "disappeared" persons were Ottoman subjects and no living heirs were to be found.

In Chap. 25 of his memoir, Morgenthau recounts the following exchange in the late summer of 1915: "One day Talaat made what was perhaps the most astonishing request I had ever heard. The New York Life Insurance Company and the Equitable Life of New York had for years done considerable business among the Armenians. The extent to which this people insured their lives was merely another indicator of their thrifty habits. “I wish,” Talaat now said, “that you would get the American life insurance companies to send us a complete list of their Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to the State. The Government is the beneficiary now. Will you do so?” This was almost too much and I lost my temper “You will get no such list from me,” I said, and I got up and left him." (Ambassador Morgenthau's Story. Henry Morgenthau. Dobleday, Page and Company. 1918).

(The fact that it took some 90 years, until 2004 to actually settle the policy issue is another story entirely. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/20m-settlement-for-armenians/)

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

As a man ..........., with no spiritual qualifications

If you are referring to yourself here, why do you need examples?

19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

But since the Russians still use wood burning fireplaces, and paper is just thin sheets of wood, this coming bitter winter those in Moscow will appreciate that the Governing Body gave them fuel at the proper time ... even though it cost the Brotherhood Eighty Million Dollars in International Postage, and Fifty-Four Million dollars of that was transferred to the Russian Government by the Universal Postal Union as "terminal duty" ( That means they were paid to deliver the mail at their end...).

More pathetically callous observations, reflecting the words of the apostle Paul at 1 Cor.2:14:

"A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the teachings of God's Spirit. He thinks they're nonsense. He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them."

2 hours ago, Jay Witness said:

JW's are getting a taste of their own medicine.

Hopefully, this callous observation reflects only what the apostle Paul stated at 1Cor.2:14:

"A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the teachings of God's Spirit. He thinks they're nonsense. He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them."

16 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Does it serve God, or theocratic interests in any way, shape or form, to be stuck forever?

"Forever is a long...long time."

No one gets stuck in anything longer than their current life or until Armageddon...whichever comes first.

6 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Angel of God's Presence

This interesting description is taken from Isaiah 63:9. We have tended to focus on Jehovah's empathetic nature as revealed in the first part of the verse.

Nevertheless, we have commented fairly comprehensively on how aptly this term refers to Jesus in his angelic role. For starters, this quote from the Watchtower (1961 15 Jan p 57) cites a number of scriptural references in answer to your question:

"The Chief One over all the angels is Jesus Christ, the Word, the lone archangel, Michael. (Dan. 12:1; John 1:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7) He is also termed the angel or the messenger of the covenant at Malachi 3:1 and is the angel referred to at Revelation 20:1, 2 that binds Satan and his demons and casts them into the abyss of death for a thousand years. Without a doubt he also was the angel God appointed to lead the sons of Israel during their wilderness trek: “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road . . . my angel will go ahead of you.” “The angel of his person saved them.”—Ex. 23:20-23; Isa. 63:9, ftn."
 

3 hours ago, Ed Hominum said:

A brother in my congregation, @TrueTomHarley,

I would always feel uneasy about a brother with what some people call "a strudel" in his name, regardless of what he carried.

EzEKIEL 18:4

"Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die".

http://brebuzz.net/2017/06/19/first-ever-breeam-communities-innovation-credit-is-claimed-by-temple-farm-development/

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I think the Librarian is on holiday again,

53 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Poll Question:

I suggest you start a new thread with this as a poll question.

13 hours ago, bruceq said:

Well since I am no longer wanted and this place is infested with apostates as my final act as terminator:

Hey @bruceq, I hope you're not ducking out here? You bring some useful information to the table when you are not engaging in an emotional exchange!

Without pointing any fingers unnecessarily at others, you are acting unwisely if you engage with ones you consider to be apostates. Not just because it's a prohibited excercise (2John 9-11). Apostates are indicted by Jehovah because they have  "disheartened the righteous one" and "have strengthened the hands of the wicked one" (Ez.13:22). Do not loose the force of Jesus illustration of the "ravenous woves" (Matt.7:15). You cannot fight them on a level playing field. They will literally have you for breakfast! You will come out dis-heartened!

And even if your judgement of some is too harsh (by my estimate), they may still not play by rules of etiquette you hold dear. You are in great danger of 'answering...according to their foolishness' (Pro.26:4), with harm to your own peace of mind.

But, despite the acknowledged dangers of an internet forum, which can indeed be a bit like playing soccer blindfolded at times, you do have some control.

There is an option to ignore users that you can turn on, to avoid those excercises known as "flaming" that you sometimes appear to get caught in.

Perhaps @Librarian could provide an instruction on how to turn this facility "on", as the recent platform migration appears to have switched it "off".

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But it strikes me as reading a bus schedule that some try to worry out every detail. When the bus comes, it comes. If I have been behaving, I should be okay.

I really like this.

When I used to use buses to get home at night as a teenager, there were no electronic schedule indicators. Just a printed sheet on the stop, if it had not been vandalised. It was notoriously difficult to figure out the schedule. The print was too small, the light too dim, the mind too clouded, the need to relieve nature too pressing. And the schedule always contained exceptions to scheduling for late hours and weekends in even tinier print, indicated by impossibly small asterisks and the like. And if the bus number was different for the out-of-hours service.......! It was so easy to misinterpret and a frustrating excercise. But what a relief it was when a bus actually came! On time, as far as the driver was concerned. The schedule? No longer of any real interest. Maybe I'd check on the bus to see where I had got it wrong. So easy in retrospect. The important thing? I was at the stop to get the bus when it came.

I think there's an illustration in there somewhere. I'll have to figure it out when I get time...........maybe something about the driver choosing the passengers....................Hmmm....

This is turning into a circus!!

What will 17 July bring??

Possibly not fake news, but..................more info needed.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-women-with-super-human-vision

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

To me, it's more like when there's a fire on the back of someone's head, but that person is more interested in semantics and ignores the obvious.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Trying to make use of this idea that Jehovah can be said to become King even though he already is King is irrelevant, then. It doesn't prove Jehovah was not a King, so it can't be used to prove that Jesus was not a King.

Who is trying to prove Jesus was not a king? The Scriptures are abundantly clear that Jesus, a king, can become a king in the same way that Jehovah, a king, can become a king. They are also abundantly clear that Jesus, UNLIKE Jehovah, has not always been a king. (Despite those who might seek to muse on how Jehovah could have been king when alone).Comp.Ps.90:2.

That even a human can become a king whilst being a king is shown in the words of Abner when negotiating with David: "Then Abʹner said to David: “Let me go and gather all Israel together to my lord the king, so that they may make a covenant with you, and you will become king over all that you desire"" 2Sam.3:21.

As long as those who are unaware of or, who choose not to recognise, a king's authority remain, or there are those who are yet to recognise it, there is room for an existing king to "become king".

Hence, Ph.2:10 "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground" which is yet to be fufilled, itself only an echo of Is.45:23: "By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty".

And, once again, 1Cor.15:28: "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone". With regard to this last text, we have no  problem accepting that Jesus was not aready subject to Jehovah when he is spoken of subjecting himself at a future time here do we? So in that act, Jehovah "becomes king" to His Son, Jesus, whilst both He and Jesus are still kings, does He not?
Yes, both Jesus and His Father and Sovereign Lord, Jehovah, will both be kings and become kings on many future occasions, as they have done so in the past. Compare Isaiah 9:7: "To the increase of his rulership...there wil be no end"

Alas, there is no fuel for the fire on the back of this head ! (figuratively of course)
 

16 hours ago, Jay Witness said:

Since when did women have privileges to lose in the first place? A woman can't even pray aloud in the company of men without putting a dishcloth on her head.

Strange perceptions here. Can't work out if this person has been a victim of bullying or is just talking about some other religious group.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Hebrews 1 and 2 had already dealt with his Kingship and royal power: "God is your throne." "He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." "The scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned. . ."

 

I have great difficulty in seeing what all the fuss is about over this matter. No one (no one??) disputes that Jehovah God is, was, and always will be the Sovereign Lord of the Universe (whatever the Universe comprises). By His very nature, He could not abdicate that position even if He wanted to. (Rev.4:11) Jesus himself has never disputed that fact (Phil.2:6), and never will, regardless of the exalted position he now enjoys (thoroughly attested to by @JWInsider),  see also 1Cor.15:27-28.

But, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who has never abdicated His position, is said on a number of occasions when expressing His Power in accomplishing His will in the face of opposition,  to have "become King" (1Chr.16:31; Ps.47:8; Ps.93:1; Ps.96:10; Ps.97:1; Ps.99:1; Is.24:23; Is.52:7. Let the reader sort the context).

So, why should we find it so difficult to grasp that Jesus, the image of the invisible God, the King of Jehovah's Messianic Kingdom, who will lead the heavenly angels in vanquishing all oppostion to Jehovah's Sovereign rulership expressed through that very kingdom of His Son, could not also express rulership in executive action at different times? And, as in the case of his Father who "becomes King", despite being King already, whenever He expresses His rulership, why cannot Jesus do the same? Surely this is all the more reason to glorify rightly that same Son of God who, after accomplishing the complete restoration of all things to His Father's satisfaction, then submits to His Father's rule in an action which once again enables Jehovah to "become KIng"?

To me this argument is a whole heap of smoke for which there is...just...no....fire!!!

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the US/English, this was the 1977 yb p.81-83

My mistake, this is the correct reference. I got thrown by the 1979 reference which is either a mistake, or someone with the same name. My Hendry graduated from Gilead only in 1947. 

On 7/3/2017 at 9:09 PM, JW Insider said:

several of the publications and assembly talks continued to mention that this system of things could not go on past the end of the twentieth century.

Yes I remember such talks, but they were not the only talks I heard.

I suppose I was spoilt early on for this sort of pressure.  I learnt two things (which may or may not be orthodox), but they have stood me in good stead and, I believe, have served to prevent me from being quickly shaken from my reason or to be alarmed. (2Thess.2:2)

1. I shared lodgings with for a while with Hendry Carmichael, (Yearbook 1977 p81-83). I learned many things from this zealous, Glaswegian brother. He once said to me, with his twinkling blue eyes a-sparkle, "You know laddie, your Armageddon came the day you heard the good news, because what you do with it will make an everlasting difference to your future!".

2. Over the years, I have been blessed with many, wonderful bible studies who have progressed to dedication and baptism, including a woman who is now my wife and pioneer partner. She said to me recently that it sadddens her sometimes to hear that the end is as imminent as many brothers emphasize. I know what she means. If the end had come in 1975, she would not have found the truth. (And nor me, her). And when it does come, there will be no others to save out of this wicked world. I know the resurrection will afford unimaginable opportunities to help people learn the truth of God's puposes, but we are meeting new ones all the time now, and starting new studies, in a part of the world I was told is "unproductive"!

So what am I saying? Well, my Armageddon (figurative of course), has long come and gone, and I am making every effort to ensure that when the real one does, I am rightly disposed for everlasting life.(Acts 13:48). And as far as the time left is concerned? Well, every day in this system of things, lives are being saved in evidence of Jehovah's patience. (Ex.18:23) And we can have as much a share in this as our volunteer sprit impels. (2Cor.9:6-7) There is no organisation on earth that facilitates this work in the way that Jehovah's Witnesses do. (Mich.4:1-2)

And that I think, for me anyway, captures the essence of 1Tim.4:16: "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And what @Eoin Joyce said about being "enlightened" to make sure he kept a more balanced view of 1975, back in 1972: "Probably the 1975 thing is the most glaring example I have personally experienced, although I was thankfully enlightened about the erroneous expectations attached about 1972 or so, and seem to have avoided the "hysteria" others appear to have experienced."

If this was due to input from a brother or sister, was that brother doing the right thing?

I feel bound to respond in that I have been quoted.

The orientation that I received way back then in 1972 was definitely "the right thing" in that it expressed a view, already in circulation, that I was not aware of at the time,  namely, that the date of 1975 was merely the (currently understood) end of 6000 years of man's existence. Nothing more. It had just been rather eclipsed by the more sensational (to some) 1975 speculation about "the great tribulation".

I note that you have not expressed regret at having entered full-time service at a young age, in spite of the rather biased considerations:

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think I was disadvantaged in the slightest for having done so.

I haven't personally met any faithful servants of Jehovah that have expressed regrets about engaging in the pioneer ministry, regardless of their having been possibly prompted at first by chronological expectations that may have been a product of wishful thinking rather than God's spirit. I have, however,  met a few who no longer serve Jehovah and who have voiced regrets both regarding pioneering and early end time speculations.

It occurs to me that, apart from the clear warnings of obvious deviancy in the Christian congregation in the words of Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, and Jesus; we don't really know much about the eccentric side of the 1st Century Christians. The terse record of inspired Scripture fulfils the requirement of 2Tim 3:16 to completly equip, and I am sure the presence of the apostles and the operation of God's Spirit minimised the uncoventional. But, in view of James's observation that only perfect men can avoid verbal stumbling, I am sure a few "kooky" ideas circulated in those 66 or so years in the 1st century before the apostasy took off.

And considering the literaly 1000s and 1000s of pages of information that have been produced in the last 140 years by only a comparatively few minds in our movement, without the safeguards of the 1st Century, surely among those many, many words, trangression cannot be avoided? (Pro10:19).

I think though, before we get overly righteous about dates and their effect on motivation, we need to remember the general principles found in Paul's words at Rom 9:17 regarding our preaching: "If I do this willingly, I have a reward; but even if I do it against my will, I still have a stewardship entrusted to me". and correct motivation: "Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you". Ph.3:15. (This, notwithstanding the immediate, contextual application).
 

On 6/27/2017 at 3:41 AM, JW Insider said:

Every one of these dates, whether we think it's exact, or if we think it's within 20 years, or even within 500 years, will always require secular corroboration.

Fair point.

I think I might say will often benefit from secular corroboration.  But the view I expressed is that our faith is not actually dependant on such matters. They are of interest of course. But unlike Jehovah who does not change, the opinions of secular academia do.....frequently, so they (the opinions) are not the arbiters of our faith.

Some may charge Jehovah's Witnesses with changing their opinions frequently. We certainly will adjust our conclusions when this is warranted by a clearer understanding of God's Word and it's application. But here God's Word is sought to verify the soundness of human thinking rather than human thinking determining the soundness of God's Word. Of course the good results humans experience when following Jehovah's word correcty will provide reinforcement of  faith. After all, "wisdom is proved righteous by it's works" Matt.11:19.

My oh My! They're certainy not singing from the same hymn sheet there yet are they?