Evacuated

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

owners of this website

Who are they? (Genuine question)

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Perhaps the pain caused by child sexual abuse is not overstated - I'll walk that one back.

Now you're thinking. (I couldn't upvote as the JTR thing is wasting time and space). 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sometimes in my heart of hearts, I think that the emotional devastation wrought by abuse is surely overstated.

Shooting from the hip I think. 

19 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The entire book of Esther, for example, which was written later than the Babylonian Captivity, does not contain the name YHWH at all.

Do you discount the apparent acrostics noted at, for example, Esther 1:20; 5:4, 13; and 7:7?

Is there an LXX awareness of these?

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

"Jesus" is not the name given that is above every other name since many people have been given that name over thousands of years.

Good point @bruceq  !!

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I thought it unwise to appear to be dismissing all the attempts to try to do something about the worldwide plague of child sexual abuse

Let's hope that no one here even inadvertently gives that impression.

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The Catholic Church has held internal conferences and even invited people of other religions to help them to try to brainstorm ideas that can help.

How about completely abolishing unscriptural celibacy requirements for starters?

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

If a religious institution appears to have a problem admitting that they have a problem,

with

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

the worldwide plague of child sexual abuse,

This is interesting. It is indeed a worldwide plague. So anyone, institution or individual, denying this fact is really deluded. Reminds me of Chechnya’s leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, who denies that persecution of gay men is taking place in Chechnya, saying there are no gay men living in the republic to be persecuted.

Noticeable too is the institutional pride that serves as an obstacle to combatting the plague even if recognised, exemplified in such responses as "other institutions have a worse record than ours" or "our awareness is higher, or policy is better, than theirs". Meanwhile the problem remains, still affecting all, regardless.

So is the crime the plague? Or is it the criminal?, or are these just symptoms of something deeper?

To be continued.....(I'm sure)

17 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

the point raised is too hard to defend

Are you are  attacking then? Freedom of choice needs no defense.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I expected a much better response from you. I do understand though.

Don't make me laugh. Speak plainly or not at all! 

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

ONLY ... because of being SHAMED into doing it .... AGAINST normal corporate policy ... and resisted the whole way, and at EVERY step along the way ... for 50 years.

Well, shame has it's place. As king David found out!

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.... for pedophilia, substitute the phrase "FIRST DEGREE MURDER",  and see if your argument still makes sense.

Good tip. All works for me.

But....don't think "who has the moral high ground?" is a particularly constructive element to this particular discussion? I mean, this is a global problem. No-one has successfully handled it as far as I can see. Apart from the obvious answer, "Jehovah God has the moral high ground in any issue" (Is.33:22; Lu.18:19), the question otherwise is simply................ rhetorical.

The pupose of the original post was to keep an awareness of fact relating to the current situation in UK regarding attempts to lobby the The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) to include Jehovah's Witnesses on their investigation program.

Cutting through opinion, useful perspective that has come out of the discussion for me so far includes:

• Confirmation that a "shooting from the hip" reaction characterises many responses to this particlar subject. (A reason for raising the topic in the first place).
• Religious affiliation is generally not reported on in child abuse cases unless a religious official is involved. This contrasts with cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses, where, frequently, even the slimmest connection can draw full media attention.
• Bizarre, anecdotal accounts of sexual impropriety amongst JW "dignitaries" abound. However, there is a shortage of factual or verifiable information on these cases. Hence the welcome nature of public investigation (in general that is, not the specifically of the alleged incidents).
• Definition of what constitutes child abuse has a cultural dimension. Much information available generally on occurence and intervention attempts has an Ameri/Eurocentric bias which distorts awareness of the extent of the problem, and the nature and effectiveness of attempts to deal with it.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

disagree, Its more so because defending the syllogism fallacy used to support the control of people for harmless practices  is impossible, so one must take a diversion as to avoid the obvious. 

gobble-de-gook

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you choose the easiest portion to argue against

If it falls down here, there is little point in arguing on any other basis. No need to sledgehammer this little nut.

6 hours ago, The Librarian said:

1927 Restoration Rutherford

Thanks very much.

19 hours ago, Nicole said:

 

Was Jesus a minimalist? 

 

This term has a rather narrow definition, often applied to an approach to Arts and music, and in this sense is really a modern term dating from the early 20th century.

However, the term has become associated with an approach to life that far predates and expands the narrow focus of the modern, artistic concept, neatly summed up in a Wikipedia definition: (my bold)

"Simple living or voluntary simplicity encompasses a number of different voluntary practices to simplify one's lifestyle. These may include reducing one's possessions, generally referred to as minimalism, or increasing self-sufficiency, for example. Simple living may be characterized by individuals being satisfied with what they have rather than want. Although asceticism generally promotes living simply and refraining from luxury and indulgence, not all proponents of simple living are ascetics. Simple living is distinct from those living in forced poverty, as it is a voluntary lifestyle choice." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living

One might find a greater comparison here with Jesus' approach to life that the term "minimalist" might not adequately encompass, being as it is, far too "minimal". 

17 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

to deny a child the fun surrounding their birthday

Typical half-baked argument. The so-called "birthday fun", no matter how twee, is imposed upon children by adults.

Children would not attach any significance to birthdays, if they even remembered them, without this practice being continually reinforced by doting adults often under the influence of commercial and media propoganda.

To say that children are then "denied fun" is like a drug dealer complaining that prohibition is denying his clients fun from using a substance he has addicted them to for his own personal gain.

Try another tack on this please!

19 hours ago, Nicole said:

Police said Morgan confided in his pastors at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and they turned him into detectives.

Seems the process is working!

7 hours ago, Nicole said:

Uber also logs GPS data,

Why is nothing being said specifically about this? Did he even pick up Uber passengers or was he just car-jacked? Has anyone pinged his phone? So many holes in the story. Poor family. 

4 hours ago, The Librarian said:

I doubt the cart was present when the explosion occurred.

This was a separate incident to the 12 hours earlier bomb attack, about 1/2 mile away.  A number of Carts are always at the Arndale Centre (very busy shopping area) for daytime witnessing.

I will be at the Arena next month hopefully.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we still want to avoid using the idea as a kind of defeatism

Agree entirely, but I do not think that recognition of an inevitable escalation of disaster as this system of things reaches it's end creates a defeatist attitude.

For example, we know that Jesus said "the love of the greater number will grow cold" Matt.24:12, Paul said that "men will be....having no natural affection" 2Tim.3:1-3, but this doesn't stop the ever growing Christian congregation to be characterised by "love" John 13:34? And neither does the inevetible deterioration of men's attitudes to God's rulership cause us to lessen our efforts to preach "the good news of the kingdom" more extensively and with more ingenuity, helping any who respond to become disciples. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't know why your point about 1855 should serve to modify the remark

A plague in Asia lasting from 1855 to 1959 killing many millions of people serves adequately in my mind as a reason to modify this remark: 

On 5/23/2017 at 0:49 AM, JW Insider said:

, but plagues are no longer the kind of worry they were during the days of exploration from the 13th to the 17th centuries.

You have now expanded the scope of your use of the terms "plague" and "child abuse" anyway which is good, but only serves to reinforce the point I am making about the illusion of progress in handling these issues.

Anyway, I think my earlier observation about this subject arousing a tendency to "shoot from the hip" is well substantiated by the some of the content of postings here.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The rights that Jehovah has to create a prophetic drama by having a specific situation played out is not relevant at all to how we handle matters of abuse today.

Absolutely!

18 hours ago, Anna said:

when it comes to handling of child sexual abuse, "waiting on Jehovah" and other perceived theocratic sensibilities just don't seem appropriate in this situation.

"waiting on Jehovah" can unfortunately become a rather patronising and cliched expression due to it's inappropriate use and application (by some) to doing.... "nothing!".

Although the phrase as such does not exactly appear in the Scriptures, the idea expressed at James 5:7-8 certainly captures the principle of patiently and humbly awaiting Jehovah's time to put an end to the oppression and injustice lowly ones experience when unfairly treated by those with the upper hand in this current unjust system of things. I mean, no man can depose Satan the Devil as "ruler of the world"

Similarly, both Jeremiah and Micah use the phrase "waiting attitude". In the case of Jeremiah, when contemplating the sad end of unfaithful Jerusalem, there was the prospect of restoration in Jehovah's due time. Something Jeremiah would not actually see in his lifetime, although he did escape the destruction of Jerusalem with his life, thanks to Jehovah's protection. 

Micah, of course experienced some measure of relief in surviving through the rule of unfaithful king Ahaz into a far better environment under faithful King Hezekiah's rule, but still awaited Jehovah's time for the fulfillment of his prophetic words in, for example, Mic.4:1-4.

With the words related to "wait" appearing in Scripture over 180 times, there is ample basis for understanding what it means to "wait", what it is we should be "waiting for", and the correct attitude to display whilst "waiting".

One scripture which contradicts the erroneous application of the principle of "waiting on Jehovah" is contained in Pro.3:27:

"Do not withhold good from those to whom you should give it if it is within your power to help."

In harmony with the prophetic warning in 1Tim 3:1-5, the insidious plague of child abuse has infected every institution amongst humankind, including the family. For decent, honest people, this is an affront to basic human morality.  For those who love Jehovah, it is an unthinkable and henious crime against God Himself, and an inexcusable betrayal of trust toward victims.

Despite this, it's seemingly inexorable march continues, aided by internet, base criminality, incompetence and, extraordinarily, by the inability of many decent folk to accept that humans can be that evil.

The willingness of responsible ones among Jehovah's Witnesses to adjust procedural instructions in the face of criticism from worldly authorities and lay persons alike, (by no small means aided by the vitriolic poison of apostate slander), gives the lie to the view that such matters should "wait on Jehovah" for resolution.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You might have already been aware of the news when three of the persons with the highest responsibilities at the Branch were dismissed at the same time,

Could you quote a source for factual detail if you are not at liberty to provide the information yourself?

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Making the organization appear cleaner is not the same as truly working to make it clean.

Quite true in principal. But... all these dead people named as alleged examples.....Just tedious.

Isn't there anything that can be proved???
 

http://news.sky.com/story/manchester-arndale-centre-evacuated-after-security-alert-10889787

It seems this subject has such an emotive element that there is often a tendency to "shoot from the hip" in responses from all sides.

For example: 

23 hours ago, bruceq said:

Who dares tell Jehovah that his way or his representatives are WRONG in how Jehovah handles things or finds "fault" except of course Satan and other DISLOYAL ones.

Is this referring to those who criticize JW procedure in handling cases of child abuse? Surely not thought through if so?

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but plagues are no longer the kind of worry they were during the days of exploration from the 13th to the 17th centuries.

In medieval times, plague was known as the “Black Death” and resulted in millions of Europeans dying. Indeed, the incidence of this virulent disease in recent times seems minimal by comparison......at face value.

This little table can be seen in the context of this comment regarding the first decade of the century:   In the United States, 57 persons were reported to have the disease, of which seven died. Worldwide, 21,725 persons were affected with 1,612 deaths, for a case-fatality rate of 7.4%. (National Center for Biotechnology Information). 

In the context of the comment made earlier, regarding diminishing concern regarding plague, this quote from Wikipedia should serve to modify this remark: 

Third Plague Pandemic is the designation of a major bubonic plague pandemic that began in Yunnan province in China in 1855.[1] This episode of bubonic plague spread to all inhabited continents, and ultimately more than 12 million people died in India and China, with 10 million people killed in India alone.[2] According to the World Health Organization, the pandemic was considered active until 1959, when worldwide casualties dropped to 200 per year.

The comment on diminishing "worry" regarding plague seems to have been presented as a parallel to counter the view of @bruceq that the crime of "child abuse" would escalate as an indication of us being in "the last days". The facts indicate that severe and devastating incidence of plague is not limited to the 13th-17th century. Further research on professional views of this disease highlight concerns regarding anti-biotic resistance, travel based ease of transmission, social conditions exacerbating spread (deprivation induced hygeine factors etc). Only the stretched resources of finance, the dedication of medical professionals working at the limits of current scientific defences hold back the tide of plague in the modern world. (In my opinion, of course)

So, for those who believe Jesus prophecy on end times in Matt 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 (as well as the symbolic ride of Revelation 6's four horseman) to have significance for the period since 1914, there is little basis for minimising concern regarding plague from both an eschatological or medical perspective. Therefore, on that basis, to conclude that:

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Child abuse might actually be another matter that gets better, not worse, as the system heads towards the end.

appears to be a highly suspect comparison. And actually strikes me as likely to reflect a highly Ameri/Eurocentric view, as does the whole child abuse debate.

At best, it appears to me that institutional handling of this crime may well be improved by state intervention in policy formulation in those countries strongly influenced by N/W European culture (and I include N America and Australa/N Zealand in that).

But who knows what has gone on, and continues to occur, in Eurasia, Asia, Africa, S America, M/Eastern etc areas? What basis is there for thinking that the rather pathetic, horse-bolted efforts of some countries of a very similar Western-influenced culture will have any effect on entrenched and historic practice and attitudes in areas of far greater population density?

No. I am afraid that on the basis of this argument,  I cannot agree with the suggestion that abuse of children in all it's unacceptable guises will diminish as this system continues to blunder to it's inevitable end. Ps.72:12-14.  

Length of posts seeming to be an important criteria here, I will cease (for now) at this point. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I always exaggerate............................But in this case, I hold to the never.

Exaggeration is a feature of this area of debate and (for me) has no place in informed discussion on such a serious matter.

I haven't seen any analysis on the religious persuasion of child abusers and agree that some apostates contribute to fueling the biased reporting on the religious identity of child abusers who are or may have been connected at some time with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I recognise that the reporting on the religious identity of child abusers amongst religions other than Jehovah's Witnesses is biased toward "clergy" or other religious officials. However, in view of their imaginary office, I still view them just as members. Obviously, a cursory look at the vast numbers of reported child abuse cases indicates that the proportion of non-clerical membership of various religious groups engaging in this crime must be higher than commonly perceived.

And as you have now explained that your "never" means "rarely", I hold to my view.

21 Nov 2007 JW Press release.pdf

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

we never hear religious affiliation for anyone other than JWs when abusers are found out.

Actually this is a valid point but is also an overstatement. The word "never" exaggerates. The Roman Catholic church, as an example, has received considerable publicity over this matter, albeit with a focus on clergy crime. 

This topic provokes strong reactions wherever it is raised, not least because it seems to be one of the final frontiers of morality left in this broken system. Many Jehovah's Witnesses have little detailed knowledge of the topic from a media perspective, both because of it's extreme distastefulness as well as the aforementioned negative media bias with it's apostate links.

It is difficult to get a rational grasp on the matter, even more so on the real facts behind what appears in the media. I have found the factual element of what has been posted on this forum to be very useful along with links to information sources. The various viewpoints expressed, including those I do not share, have been enlightening. 

In field ministry recently, I met the director of a national mental health organisation. He is known for having very strong and negative views on Jehovah's Witnesses in general, and particularly in the area of handling child abuse. He is not averse to loudly disputing with Witnesses on the street, hailing facts and figures to support his views to such an extent that most cannot engage with him. The information I had gleaned from postings here was very useful, and I was able have have a fact-driven conversation with this vociferous man, with an insight into his pattern of thinking. At least the level of emotion  and speech volume was reduced, and I think that being able to engage rationally and factually was a factor in that. A position held in ignorance of facts in an emotional exchange is guaranteed to fuel an angry reaction.

Hopefully, this topic will generate a useful contribution.

2 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

Pascale Petit,

This has to take the biscuit for off topic posting!  Oh just noticed you are the original poster???