Evacuated

Hmmm..

One commentator says this on Rev 7:4:

"Various efforts have sought to determine the significance of the number 144,000.............No justification can be found for understanding the simple statement of fact in v.4 as a figure of speech. If it is taken symbolically, then no number in the book can be taken literally."  p473-4 Revelation 1-7 : An Exegetical Commentary.  Robert L. Thomas 1992.

Seems there is more room for discussion on their purpose than their number.

"In America, most of us think of Jehovah’s Witnesses as that occasional Saturday nuisance" quoted by @JayWitness. (Interesting discussion by the way).

Well, here we have a paradox well known to philosphers. Can tolerance tolerate intolerance and survive? Or must the intolerant learn to tolerate the tolerant? An argument for unlimited or absolute tolerance makes no logical or Biblical sense to me. I mean, no-one should not have to tolerate tobacco smoke if they are a non-smoker.

Numbers 25:10-11 indicates a limit to tolerance from a Biblical perspective, modified later, for example, by statements such as that at Rom.12:17-19.

Christians are tolerant of the current state of affairs, as is Jehovah, but know that His tolerance has limits, and await His action as stated. Meanwhile, we are grateful where the attitude above prevails at present, but we will tolerate intolerance, opposition, and even injustice for as long as Jehovah does.

21 minutes ago, Jay Witness said:

It really annoys me when Watchtower does this. It sets up a "us and them" mentality. That the only people that really matter are the JW lives.

Wow that is dangerous. I wonder how many of you are like this?

2 hours ago, The Librarian said:

Is this all over the news in the UK?

Case goes back to early 2016

 http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/14271622.Church_elder_who_sexually_abused_vulnerable_children_was_invited_to_speak_at_first_victim___s_wedding/

Victim appears to have gone "public" recently with this feature apparently the origin of a circulating story..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/girl-who-abused-dad-five-10367995

Grace Macaskill, the feature writer, seems to frequently cover this area of "news" for UK tabloids

28 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

(Apple to follow presumably).

Apple there as well now. 

On 5/8/2016 at 8:54 PM, John Houston said:

Thanks for the Golden Age ABC, the letters M, N  page are missing,

1920 - Golden Age ABC v3.pdf

As promised in the May 2017 Broadcast, the upgrade to JW Library is now available for Android and Windows. (Apple to follow presumably).

Upgrade to JW Library 9 from Google Play Store or Windows10 Store.

(Apologies if posted elsewhere already)

16 minutes ago, ARchiv@L said:

use the google maps to select another "spot" and another different view !!!

That gives a few more shots. Excellent. Thanks!

2 hours ago, ARchiv@L said:

New virtual 3d tour

Great, but is it only one shot of the Reception area?

9 hours ago, Nicola said:

Why are you telling me all this?

Do you think I'm telling you all this? This is a public forum, not a private chatroom don't forget. However, I will address the following comments specifically to the points you have raised.

I have heard Joseph in Egypt and children in abusive situations mentioned before in parallel for various reasons by persons other than yourself. I object strongly to the general assertion or inference that the suffering of children has any value or place in anything that Jehovah is accomplishing no matter how tenuous. I find any connecting of Jehovah's name to the heinous practice of child abuse to be disgusting in the least. And that regardless of the intention. The only compensating factor, save the welcome bringing to man's harsh justice now of these miserable perpetrators (Rom.13:4), is the fact that, for those victims who survive and who are able to draw close to Jehovah, there is the prospect of Isaiah 65:17 being fulfilled: "the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart".

What we mean to say and what others might draw from what we say is a very important consideration we should take prior to voicing our views publicly. Personally, I welcome the opportunity to share in a forum like this because, among other things, it trains thinking ability, enables me to test the soundness of a view, and to adjust when an error, weakness, or ambiguity is exposed. Surely that is one of the lessons contained in Proverbs 12:17: "The first to state his case seems right, until the other party comes and cross-examines him".

However I would respectfully point out the warning given at the beginning of this "Controversial Posts" section of the forum: Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. This is an area where topics that arouse strong feelings are discussed. This means that views you may present here will be will be subject to what you might feel is rather overly rigorous scrutiny. And as this may well be by persons who do not share your faith or principle, this scrutiny could be aggressively critical, hence the entry caution.

However, many of us have been witnesses for even longer than yourself, and just because we do not agree with what you say or how perhaps you present what you  say, it does not mean we are attacking or opposing you personally. And in no way does it justify being termed in response, insultingly, as apostate!

You could welcome the opportunity to test (and improve) the incisiveness of your argumentation in the spirit of Pro.27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man [woman] sharpens his [her] friend".

19 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

The patient endurance of wrong or provocation, combined with a refusal to give up hope for improvement in the disturbed relationship. Long-suffering therefore has a purpose, looking particularly to the welfare of the one causing the disagreeable situation.

11 minutes ago, Bible Speaks said:

Can you imagine how long-suffering Jehovah is with the wicked and Satan!

I can't see how Jehovah could be said to excercise long-suffering toward Satan on the basis of the definition given above??

3 hours ago, Nicola said:

I resent you quoting Anna about what I said and saying "amen

Sorry you have feelings of resentment. "Amen" expresses my complete agreement with a view that Anna (not you) has posted. However, feeling resentment is an unpleasant experience for you, and not the intention of my comment. I can appreciate your own experiences as described above make this a sensitive area for you.

However, I feel there is absolutely no comparison possible between Joseph's experience of imprisonment in Egypt and the unthinkable horror a child must go through when subject to molestation by someone who, in some cases, they may well have looked to for protection and love. That is before we start to consider the inexcusable reproach that is heaped upon Jehovah's name and the reputation of all Jehovah's Witnesses, when someone claiming to be one of us perpetrates such a despicable crime.

Even a cursory examination of the factors involved in Joseph's case reveal that, despite the indisputable injustice he experienced over the course of many years, he was well aware of Jehovah sustaining him and intervening in his circumstance to enable him to enjoy privileged conditions, albeit a prisoner. Additionally he was also well aware that, overall, Jehovah had a specific purpose in allowing him to serve instrumentally for the salvation of the line of the promised seed. Gen.45:5-7.

This has no resemblance to the experience of abused children and quite frankly, I resent the association of Jehovah in anything which would contribute to some imagined purpose in Him allowing such depraved behaviour. This is the same Jehovah who referred to child abuse in His condemnation of the Israelites when speaking through Jeremiah the prophet:

"Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing" Jer.32:35.

I know that an awareness of the bigger picture regarding the universal issues of Jehovah's sovereignty and the slur on the integrity of Jehovah's servants are factors in why Jehovah has allowed wickedness for a time. But we must remember that, even in the case of Job, limits were set by Jehovah as to how far Satan could go in his vain attempts to prove his lying claims (Job 1:12). Satan has far exceeded those limits in connection with imperfect humans. Child abuse is one example of this.
 

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

Being unfairly imprisoned, and being sexually abused and raped as a child is quite different, at least in my opinion.

Amen to that! I don't know why we are bringing Jehovah into this at all!

7 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

The  beautiful  entrance  hall

I really like this. Beautifully understated, unpretentious, focused on our mission to preach the good news and make disciples in all the nations.

7 hours ago, Micael Frost said:

If we have reasonable suspicion of a serious crime we should report it to the police so that they can do a proper investigation.

Of course. Congregation elders have been instructed that any situation where a child is at risk should be reported to the police regardless. Also, any congregation member that becomes aware of such a matter is at liberty to report the matter to the authorities regardless. Family members also have that right, congregation members or otherwise. 

This may not have always been clearly understood, but then neither has the extent of this heinous crime.

However, I do struggle with the logic that says we must put the suffering of an innocent person due to false allegations second to the protection of likely vicitms and potential future victims. Not the least factor in this is the demonstrable incompetency at times of the agencies we entrust with carrying out  "proper" investigations.

The following cases are relevant and sadly by no means isolated: 2014 David Bryant; 2015 Jay Cheshire.

4 hours ago, Anna said:

Therefore, they cannot be called Christians," the metropolitan said. .

Who is bringing the case against this extremist?

4 hours ago, Nicola said:

I don't blame them for being wary of reporting someone who may be innocent! That could destroy someone's life

And where there is no mandatory reporting requirement, it could be viewed as breaking other laws!

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Compare 2Cor. 8:2

You are quoting me here and I apologise unreservedly for mistyping the reference. Especially as you have addressed the matter so comprehensively. Forgive me for not engaging on what you have responded with as it was to my mistaken reference.

Let me recap:

On 5/3/2017 at 5:37 PM, Witness said:

Surely, their grappling over this concept should help us to discern which “seed” they may belong to.

Compare 1Cor 8:2. 

4 hours ago, Anna said:

this should be a mutual effort with the ultimate aim of protecting children.

Which is not our remit as an organisation, but as members of the human race in these critical times.

Try here:

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If 'going beyond the law' is the new gold standard, why doesn't that become the law?

Yes I agree. It seems that JWs are accused of not meeting a standard that the authorities have not consistently set.

Mr Stewart's request on Day 54 is telling:

"I'm only asking you what assistance you can give to the Commissioners in their deliberations in making recommendations as to what the law should be,"     26523 Line 36-39.

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

a telephone report

(Psalm 91:5) You will not fear the terrors of the night, Nor the arrow that flies by day,
(Psalm 91:13) On the young lion and the cobra you will tread; You will trample underfoot the maned lion and the big snake

Sadly, Gods people will need to be MORE cautious than the serpents......................

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

Parents, you need not control your children’s every move, but you do need to monitor their computer use.

True statement. I would add "at home". Pretty difficult elsewhere. Parents must become computer savvy if they allow their children to use them....and they really have no choice in the modern world. Home network is the only really effective way to go.

16 hours ago, Nicole said:

, the two men publicly spoke negatively about representatives of.....Orthodoxy!!!!!!!!

(Me in red) There's the coffin nail!