What was an interesting discussion seems to be drifting off topic and deteriorating into a sort of "flaming" excercise.

When dealing with intentionally provocative postings, Solomon's advice is worth considering before responding.

"Do not answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, so that you do not put yourself on his level.  Answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, so that he does not think he is wise." Proverbs 26:5-6

On 2/27/2017 at 3:03 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

Seems such bumbling is not the sole province of lay people either.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-39139893

9 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

We need to do a comprehensive digest

Your cited article is excellent. I would struggle to reword Para 15 any more clearly than it already is! 

Question: 

Answer:

"The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." (James 1:27: )

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And for further consideration:

I would be interested in how you see Rev.11:15 and Rev.11:17 Fitting in with this discussion.

"The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." Rev 11:15

“We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king." Rev 11:17
 

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

Christ standing indicates vision is future"

? Doesn't seem to be the spirit of how we understand this currently?

Is Jehovah's refence to Himself as a King anthropomorphic?

"Because we cannot see God with physical eyes, he uses certain anthropomorphic expressions to help us to understand and appreciate things about himself." Insight 1 p349

"anthropomorphic usage, that is, the attributing of physical and human characteristics to God to facilitate understanding" Insight 2 p1007

On 2/28/2017 at 0:18 PM, Melinda Mills said:

I don't remember it ever being an important part of our doctrine but I can look it up.

Did you get time to do this?

As far as I can see, with reference to Stephen's vision at Acts 7:54-56, we do not appear to have attached significance to his sight of Jesus "standing"  other than as confirmation of Jesus heavenly resurrection and an encouragement to him.

This was a significant occasion in that Stephen was the first to testify based on vision that Jesus had indeed returned to the right hand of Jehovah in the heavens as promised in Ps.110. He was also the first Christian martyr.

His entrusting of his spirit to Jesus indicated the intensity of the vision, and his appreciation for Jesus' heavenly posiition and active role in the provision of the resurrection. The experience greatly fortified him at that critical moment, and contributed to maintaining his demeanour before his persecutors as it was reported earlier that "they saw that his face was like an angel’s face" Acts 6:15.

*** w04 8/1 p. 8 par. 3 Jehovah Reveals His Glory to Humble Ones ***
For Stephen, this spectacular vision reaffirmed Jesus’ position as God’s Son and the Messiah. It fortified humble Stephen and served to assure him that he had Jehovah’s favor.

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think too many Australian Witnesses are holding their heads very high when the topic is brought up during witnessing activities.

This whole matter is likely a source of far more than embarrassment for informed and genuine Witnesses everywhere.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that, despite the whole world being seemingly appalled by this particular crime, it appears to be pandemic.

For example:

China: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21705848-china-has-millions-sexually-abused-children-it-beginning-acknowledge-their-suffering

Russia: https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/child-abuse-in-russia-is-routine-20452

Nigeria: http://www.voanews.com/a/unicef-report-child-abuse-nigeria/2955314.html

Argentina: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4db6c687dff74f81bfee4294bf068914/argentina-investigates-alleged-sex-abuse-school

Scotland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39116477

The work of the various investigative bodies seems so far to have done little more than reveal that the problem is far more widespread and historic than anyone imagined...everywhere. The disbelief and denial displayed by many decent people in the face of evidence to the contrary serves to illustrate the heinousness of the crime and the challenge of eradication. The "Yes he did" and "No he didn't" chorus is another tragic feature of this whole business.

Personally, I am glad to have become more aware of the matter, particularly due to the ARC work which provides a better level of information than the vitriolic apostate ramblings, sensationalist news reporting, and other widely circulated accounts. I welcome this level of investigation into all areas and pray that the lessons learned will be applied by all involved institutions despite the fact that they are at best temporary and symptom-focussed. (The bleatings of professionals over cost and implication of measures illustrate institutional unwillingness/inadequacy to deal with the matter).

Could it be that humanity in general has failed in it's duty to protect it's young ones? Don't all answer at once! And what of the victims? Shattered personalities, ruined and even lost lives...none of this can be restored by compensation or apportioning of blame.

We are witnessing the fulfillment of Paul's words to Timothy at 2Tim.3:1-5 with self-love replacing natural affection as a feature of human society in these "last days", and none worse than among those "having an appearance of godliness but proving false to it's power.".

Only Jehovah's Kingdom in Christ's hands can eradicate this abominable practice completely and also redress the effects of the crime effectively as one stated objective puts it: 

"All the kings will bow down before him, and all the nations will serve him.  For he will rescue the poor who cry for help, also the lowly one and whoever has no helper" Ps 72 11-12
 

This extract from the Insight book article on "Kingdom of God" sums up for me the manner in which Jesus could be both a king on his return to the heavens in 33CE, and King later on when heading up the long-promised Messianic Kingdom of God.

“The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8, 9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel.—Heb 12:22-24; 1Pe 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.
Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”—Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.
Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven.—Re 5:9, 10.
“Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ.” The apostle John, writing toward the close of the first century C.E., foresaw through a divine revelation the future time when Jehovah God, by means of his Son, would make a new expression of divine rulership. At that time, as in the time of David’s bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it would be said that Jehovah ‘has taken his great power and begun ruling as king.’ This would be the time for loud voices in heaven to proclaim: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”—Re 11:15, 17; 1Ch 16:1, 31.
It is “our Lord,” the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who asserts his authority over “the kingdom of the world,” setting up a new expression of his sovereignty toward our earth. He gives to his Son, Jesus Christ, a subsidiary share in that Kingdom, so that it is termed “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “The kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of “the appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth.—Lu 21:24.
 

8 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

I can't finally grasp if your position is:

• Was Jesus King as soon as he went to heaven?
• Would Jesus be King later?

Both    

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I believe the hearing is scheduled for Friday 10th March

Correct. thanks!

@AnnOMaly quoted regarding failure of mandatory reporters that this was: because they are uncertain of whether abuse occurred, are fearful of making false accusations, or are unsure of their obligations.  

In view of the level of incompetency demonstrated in some of these cases and allowing for admittedly biased reporting on these matters, I am inclined to think there may be some truth in this.

I am also puzzled by the apparent lack of legal culpability levelled toward those administratively involved in these matters despite the apparent existence of sanctions. One would have thought that the level of popular disdain against the organisation (if warranted) would be matched by a legal response of more substance.

With the ARC commencing its public hearing on Monday next I am hoping for a more objective and rational assessment of matters under Justice Peter McClellan's capable steer.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

I know, the organization has 880 languages under its belt, and that you feel it is remarkable; and I agree it is remarkable,

2 hours ago, Witness said:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.

You are tying the words of 2 Thess 2:8-12 to the Watchtowers language translation accomplishments and implying that this work has been empowered by Satan?????!!!!

I think I have heard it all now. The publications subject to this translation effort and their stupendous distribution provide one of the most comprehensive exposes of the works of the Devil, what worship of the Devil comprises, and how to identify and avoid his crafty acts that I think has ever been seen in modern history. So much so that it has drawn vitriolic and vicious reaction and downright oppression from some of the most demonic regimes in modern history, exhibiting a level of hatred and retaliation that far exceeds the level of offense that a mistaken application might generate.

If you deduce that this work is actually backed by Satan in view of its remarkable nature, then all that can be true are the words of our truly Great Teacher when he said (in context):

At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.”  Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.  In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?  Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges.  But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.  Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house.  Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" Matt.12:24-30

Take heed of the warning in the subsequent verses at Matt. 12:31-32. (As we do).
 

Ignore the box below. It won't go away!

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Verses that make it difficult to think Christ was King when he was resurrected

???? only severely out of context!!!

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

then who are we to say that he was not yet a king himself? It smacks of blasphemy, or at least a real lack of appreciation of his authority.

There seems to be an unecessarily extreme position set out in this debate. It appears to be assumed that the idea of Jesus "becoming" king at a date considerably later than the time of his being " exalted to the right hand of God " excludes him being a king in the interim period. The debate appears to focus on the demolition of this idea, which is indeed a false concept, and more than adequately accomplishes this.

However, this position is not integral to the understanding that a time period could elapse between Jesus returning to the "right hand of God" and his subsequent future role in the execution of Jehovah's "judgement against the nations." Ps 110 (in full).

A simple parallel can be drawn with Jehovah Himself. Jehovah is termed the King of Eternity. As such, He is not (never has been nor will be) subject to anything, not even the passing of time, despite His existence FROM eternity until the moment of creation when He acted on His decision to share His universe.

Since the moment He created an intelligent being in the form of his only-begotten Son, He has retained His position as King of Eternity. Despite the attack on His right to rule, and the rebellion of Satan, an unspecified number of powerful spirits, along with millions of mankind on earth, Jehovah has never relinquished His position as King of Eternity. His eternal Sovereignty was acknowledged by his faithful servants on earth, not as a future condition, but as a current state, recognised by faithful humans, spirits, and His only-begotten Son. Ps.47:2,7; Ps. 90:2; Ps.103:19-20; Lu.4:5-8. It was even forcibly impressed on pagan rulers such as Nebuchadnezzar, see Dan.4:34-35,37.

And yet we find statements such as that of David when the Ark of the Covenant was brought to the City of David:

• "Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful; Declare among the nations: ‘Jehovah has become King!" 1 Chr.16:31

And the Sons of Korah, after stating that Jehovah "is the great King" (Ps.47:2,7) follow up with this:

• "God has become King over the nations. God sits on his holy throne." Ps.47:8.

And Isaiah, after referring 8 times to Jehovah as the existing Sovereign Lord, says prophetically in connection with the restoration of Jerusalem:

• "For Jehovah of armies has become King in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem," Is.24:23

Jesus himself, when providing his outline for prayer priorities, said:

• "Let your kingdom come" Matt.6:10.

And later, in his revelation, in describing " things that must shortly take place" (Rev.1:1), he points to a future time when:

• “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ"  Rev 11:15. And also that faithful ones say:
• "We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king" Rev.11:17.

So how is it that Jehovah could be "King of Eternity" (1Tim.1:17; Rev.15:2), have His throne "established long ago" (Ps.93:2), with a "kingship that is an eternal kingship" (Ps145:13) and at the same time become king on a number of occasions over the centuries?

Answer this and you will be on the path to understanding how it is that Jesus, who like his Father, was/is ruling as a king, and yet could/will, also like his Father, become king at the same time. 

3 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

truly a "draft" copy

or even a "daft" copy?

6 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

they should have reported to the authorities under PA law

https://www.childwelfare.gov

states:

Pennsylvania
Failure to Report
Cons. Stat. Tit. 23, § 6319; Tit. 18, § 4958
A mandatory reporter who willfully fails to report as required commits a misdemeanor of the third degree for the first violation and a misdemeanor of the second degree for a second or subsequent violation.

and defines mandatory reporters to include:

• A clergyman, priest, rabbi, minister, Christian Science practitioner, religious healer, or spiritual leader of any regularly established church or other religious organization.

So have charges been brought regarding the non-reporting as that seems be outside the scope of the Fessler action?
 

3 hours ago, INTREPID TRAVELLER said:

without any interference by "mentally diseased" apostates

???

Attachment is public domain material relating to other cases in another country and which is the subject of a number of discussions elsewhere on this forum.

So, although of interest along with the 38 other Case studies reported on in Australia, it doesn't contribute much to the question of clarity in the reporting of the Stephanie Fessler v Watch Tower case.

By the way, who do you refer to as  "mentally diseased" apostates?

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Of COURSE it's a fake !

I was being satirical actually

5 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

JWI raises the possibility that some prominent brothers are divorced from reality.

Although, of course, reality is a bit of a subjective term. I suppose we could ask who's reality?

Anyway, I suspect you (and @JWInsider) mean that "the real world" that "some prominent brothers" are divorced from has reference to the set of circumstances experienced by non-SPOOFT Jehovah's Witnesses in their day to day interface with:

• JWs, (congregational, social, and family life).
• non-JWs (relatives, interested ones, neighbors, peers in education and the workplace, the non-JW community at large).
• others (marked, inactive, disfellowshipped).

If that is the "reality" to which you are referring, then I would say that, in some cases, rather than a possibility, divorce from this "reality" is a certainty. And is likely a condition experienced by more than "some prominent brothers".

I would suggest that other such "la-la Land" inhabitants might include some brought up as Jehovah's Witnesses by Jehovah's Witnesses.

"He has no dog...."

What's He Building?, Tom Waits

35 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Draft Copy of the December 2016 issue of the Watchtower

Obviously fake....No paragraph questions, and page numbering is all wrong!

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But he had just been disfellowshipped because, at some time during the past few months, he had discussed some Bible topics privately with another friend, and that friend shared his own view with an elder. At this point there was nothing dogmatic or even public in any of these discussions of Bible topics from Percy, although I don't know anything about the other friend he had spoken with. When the elders asked Percy what they had talked about he wouldn't answer, and got disfellowshipped for not cooperating and then telling them that he believed Jehovah blesses our work as an organization, but that Jehovah treats us and judges all of us as individuals, not specifically because of the merit of the organization. He believed the Bible teaches this (and could even show where the Watchtower taught the same) and I assume he wouldn't budge from this position.

Why do I feel I am not getting the full story here?

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

The case ended up being settled out-of-court after a farcical defense by Watchtower (what were they thinking?!). Read Jon Redwood's reports on how it all went down:

 

Certainly a farcical account. I wish there was a transcript available to enable a more objective assessment. Don't suppose there is, is there?

14 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

GREAT  your  words, our  Nelson Mandela

“We were all made in God's image. When you hate someone, you're hating that image. If I'm blind and I can see it, you can see it too.” Stevie Wonder.

"If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." 1 Jo.4:20.