Evacuated

You just cant leave it can you even though from at least 1865 this idea has been batted around? Unless you believe Greber was a reincarnation?? Maybe he was???
I don't know!! Even though this so-called support has long been discarded (1983), and even though the critics huff and they puff continuously , this house just won't fall down will it? Somebody has the issue round their neck it looks like. 
Anyway, thanks for the spar. I never had to look at the detail on the Greber stuff before. I have a study interested in this subject so it's been useful.
I'm really off now. Have fun.
 

Es macht nichts!
Just to end off this little sub-thread:
Greber and his demons were neither source nor support for the rendering of John 1:1 favoured by the NWT. The pre WT view of this text, along with pre-Greber references in the WT attest to this conclusion..
The KJV remains an excellent translation of the Scriptures, despite it's errors, archaic vocabulary, and embarrasing insertions, (paticularly 1John 5:7). I frequently use it as it still has currency in many quarters. 
I suppose it underlines one of the lessons in the account at Matt 19:25-26:
“Who really can be saved?” Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Bye for now!

Mr Cos. I have your view on these two passages of scripture. I don't believe I have actually stated my view. So, in view of the tone of your responses, I will leave you to surmise on what that might be. There is scriptural precedence for this.
Last try on this one Mr Cos. My understanding of the WT view of Holy Spirit is summed up below:
"It would not be quite accurate to say that the holy spirit is God’s power. This is because power can be latent, or inactively resident, in someone or something, such as power stored in a charged but unused battery. The Scriptures, however, present God’s spirit in the context of being in motion, somewhat like the electric current that flows from a battery in use. (Genesis 1:2) Hence, God’s holy spirit is his projected energy, his active force."
 

There is a danger of drawing a false conclusion from your statement here. Greber's rendering of John 1:1 is not true because it is demon-inspired. It is true because it is true. That is what the Watchtower agrees with.
Satan himself quoted accurately from scripture, yet this does not detract from the truthfulness of those texts. (Luke 4:10-11). Luke was not supporting Satan by including his words in the sacred text.
Caiaphas, the High priest,  prophesied correctly in connection with Jesus death. (John 11:49-50) Although  he was one of the "offspring of vipers" (Matt.23:33) and from his "father the Devil" (John 8:44), this did not effect the truthfulnes of his utterance. The apostle John's inclusion and explanation of this man's utterance did not indicate a support for him and his wicked master. 
So there is no contradiction ...sir.
However, there is a further danger that these words of Jesus could apply to your argument if you omit to check the reasoning carefully before pressing "Submit Reply":
"Jesus said to them: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God" Matt 22:29 

"For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth,
but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;
and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
so that no one might boast in the sight of God.
But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom,
so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah"
1Corinthians 1:26-31

"For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth,
but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;
and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
so that no one might boast in the sight of God.
But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom,
so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah"
1Corinthians 1:26-31

Actually, that is a mis-translation ... the first one should be PUS, and the second one PUL.
And in modern times the Libyan Navy has glass bottom ships, so you can see the Libyan Air Force.

"For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth,
but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;
and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
so that no one might boast in the sight of God.
But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom,
so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah"
1Corinthians 1:26-31

"For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth,
but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;
and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
so that no one might boast in the sight of God.
But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom,
so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah"
1Corinthians 1:26-31

Even in the absence of the Constitutional Court’s pending decision or new legislation, South Korea is progressing in its view of conscientious objection to military service.
Source

Somebody with problems. Needs help. No one is immune.

Somebody with problems. Needs help. No one is immune.

This is a FALSE accusation as was the accusation of the Pharisees and scribes regarding the teachings of Jesus.
Only in that Greber's rendering is perfectly acceptable and conveys the correct meaning of the text. As do other renderings of the passage in question. The Word of God does not need the support of Greber, or any other human authority for that matter.
The reluctance of religionistas to accept that Greber could get a scriptural passage right due to his personal beliefs is quite unfounded and displays a level of prejudice and ignorance of the Word of God. Demon inspired individuals can pronounce God's truths, like it or not. We have a number of scriptural examples of this.
Unfortunately for opponents, this rather baseless accusation only serves to embarass it's proponents and display a remarkable lack of appreciation for Jesus' masterful response to the accusers of his day. "“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." Matt 12:25 (Consider the context).

To you...
To you....
But to me it is not strange, and makes perfect sense.
By your method of exposition in bolding the personal pronouns and italicising certain verbs,  you emphasize your view that the Holy Spirit is a separate person "distinct" from the Father and "distinct" from Jesus it would seem?
Using the same method, how do you see wisdom?:
"Is not wisdom calling out? Is not discernment raising its voice?  On the heights along the road, It takes its position at the crossroads. Next to the gates leading into the city, at the entrances of the doorways, it keeps crying out loudly:  “To you, O people, I am calling; I raise my voice to everyone.  You inexperienced ones, learn shrewdness; you stupid ones, acquire an understanding heart.   Listen, for what I say is important, My lips speak what is right;  For my mouth softly utters truth, and my lips detest what is wicked. All the sayings of my mouth are righteous. None of them are twisted or crooked.  They are all straightforward to the discerning and right to those who have found knowledge. Take my discipline instead of silver, and knowledge rather than the finest gold, for wisdom is better than corals; all other desirable things cannot compare to it. I, wisdom, dwell together with shrewdness; I have found knowledge and thinking ability. The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad. I hate self-exaltation and pride and the evil way and perverse speech.  I possess good advice and practical wisdom; understanding and power are mine. By me kings keep reigning, and high officials decree righteousness. By me princes keep ruling, and nobles judge in righteousness.  I love those loving me, and those seeking me will find me. Riches and glory are with me, lasting wealth and righteousness. My fruitage is better than gold, even refined gold, and what I produce is better than the finest silver. I walk in the path of righteousness, in the middle of the pathways of justice; I give a rich inheritance to those who love me, and I fill up their storehouses." Pro.8:1-21

To you...
To you....
But to me it is not strange, and makes perfect sense.
By your method of exposition in bolding the personal pronouns and italicising certain verbs,  you emphasize your view that the Holy Spirit is a separate person "distinct" from the Father and "distinct" from Jesus it would seem?
Using the same method, how do you see wisdom?:
"Is not wisdom calling out? Is not discernment raising its voice?  On the heights along the road, It takes its position at the crossroads. Next to the gates leading into the city, at the entrances of the doorways, it keeps crying out loudly:  “To you, O people, I am calling; I raise my voice to everyone.  You inexperienced ones, learn shrewdness; you stupid ones, acquire an understanding heart.   Listen, for what I say is important, My lips speak what is right;  For my mouth softly utters truth, and my lips detest what is wicked. All the sayings of my mouth are righteous. None of them are twisted or crooked.  They are all straightforward to the discerning and right to those who have found knowledge. Take my discipline instead of silver, and knowledge rather than the finest gold, for wisdom is better than corals; all other desirable things cannot compare to it. I, wisdom, dwell together with shrewdness; I have found knowledge and thinking ability. The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad. I hate self-exaltation and pride and the evil way and perverse speech.  I possess good advice and practical wisdom; understanding and power are mine. By me kings keep reigning, and high officials decree righteousness. By me princes keep ruling, and nobles judge in righteousness.  I love those loving me, and those seeking me will find me. Riches and glory are with me, lasting wealth and righteousness. My fruitage is better than gold, even refined gold, and what I produce is better than the finest silver. I walk in the path of righteousness, in the middle of the pathways of justice; I give a rich inheritance to those who love me, and I fill up their storehouses." Pro.8:1-21

QUITE OFTEN .... I quote Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin, and other assorted monsters.
And I have not committed genocide in ..oh, say ... AT LEAST three weeks!

In view of the @HollyW comment above, I would add that Rutherford opened the door of opportunity to those who have no desire or inkling to go to heaven in order to be close to Jehovah and Jesus, but would that come under this heading?

I like him in his new role.
He (and his) is the 'messenger preparing the way.' Like the hazardous waste crew that reclaim the land so that it can be rebuilt upon. Russell is the garbageman, carting hellfire and Trinity out to the trash so that builders can later build.
One thing I like about this forum - there are some things I don't like - is that you get to weigh in on progressive things. The Watchtowere magazine itself does that, as do the meetings. They don't go on and on about how we know Jesus died on a stake and not a cross. It is trash discarded 100 years ago. Bethel will repeat it now and then for reminders' sake, but they barely notice it otherwise. You don't attach a note for Waste Management explaining why you have discarded the trash. They know why. Meanwhile,  you occupy yourself to what is not trash.
For some reason, JWs online go in for the baby food, attempting to prove that the trash really is trash. I don't know why they do that. Maybe two reasons. 1.) Witnesses online are not typical. The typical ones busy themselves in face-to-face interaction, which is more straightforward and thus productive, and 2.) it is not wrong to explain the trash to persons not of us who don't know it is trash. Even so, rightly or wrongly, I think most in the world have 'moved on' and are more receptive to items such as sovereignty and relative authority. 
Besides, he had to be demoted. Just look at that beard!

Maybe he had overcharged them in the first place.

I thought about this illustration, do we know if the steward had complete control over his masters debts, if so, he had the right to do what he did. it wasn't stealing, what was owed was more than the master had laid out in the 1st place...any thoughts?

Despite the acerbic nature of your comment (hardly "seasoned with salt") I'm giving you a upvote because you are absolutely right! (Even though you couldn't care less what I think).

Cos:
What you have stated is OPINION.  You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type.
Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper?
If so, it must be a FRIENDLY spirit.
YEAH, that's the ticket!
( ... for those in Rio Linda that was intended to be biting sarcasm .... because the Holy Spirit does NOT have a personal name ... and God and Christ do! )
note:  ... descriptions do not count as personal names, no more than a warm blanket does... um .... not being a person...
.
.
Even my seven dogs have personal names ...... in human English .....  I don't know if that is true in Arf.
.
 

The most recent persons I studied with who symbolized their dedication through baptism were the father and mother of two children, a pre-teen boy and a much younger girl. We absolutely discussed what baptism means in terms of their association and the potential for disfellowshipping. In fact, we spent hours on the subject, because the mother was a smoker, who needed a lot of moral support to help her quit, and she was (and still is) allowed to call the house any time day or night getting through the tough time she had in giving up the addiction. In fact, they put off baptism for at least an extra 6 months to be sure she was completely over it. But our studies also included a discussion of what can happen to children, too, and the pressure we can end up unknowingly putting on children and the emotional pain that could result if the decision of a child is not really his (or her) own decision, but primarily a way for the child to please their parents.
So up to a point, I do, but I have probably over-used or even misused this verse:
(Matthew 10:33-37) 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. I'm wondering if this is really all that applicable to the variations of choices people make today. If their children grow up and become atheists, for example, are the parents really required to initiate that division? I read the verse carefully, now, and realize that we are not the ones creating this division and creating enemies. We are the ones who continue to love our enemies, the same way Jehovah continues to make it rain on both the righteous and unrighteous.

"These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up." De. 6:6-7.
"For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die." Rom.5:7.
The rules have been neatly clarified above, but meditating yourself on the principles in scripture should help you to avoid being flummoxed by these kind of issues. The two above help in this case.
 

 

I have great difficulty in seeing what all the fuss is about over this matter. No one (no one??) disputes that Jehovah God is, was, and always will be the Sovereign Lord of the Universe (whatever the Universe comprises). By His very nature, He could not abdicate that position even if He wanted to. (Rev.4:11) Jesus himself has never disputed that fact (Phil.2:6), and never will, regardless of the exalted position he now enjoys (thoroughly attested to by @JWInsider),  see also 1Cor.15:27-28.
But, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who has never abdicated His position, is said on a number of occasions when expressing His Power in accomplishing His will in the face of opposition,  to have "become King" (1Chr.16:31; Ps.47:8; Ps.93:1; Ps.96:10; Ps.97:1; Ps.99:1; Is.24:23; Is.52:7. Let the reader sort the context).
So, why should we find it so difficult to grasp that Jesus, the image of the invisible God, the King of Jehovah's Messianic Kingdom, who will lead the heavenly angels in vanquishing all oppostion to Jehovah's Sovereign rulership expressed through that very kingdom of His Son, could not also express rulership in executive action at different times? And, as in the case of his Father who "becomes King", despite being King already, whenever He expresses His rulership, why cannot Jesus do the same? Surely this is all the more reason to glorify rightly that same Son of God who, after accomplishing the complete restoration of all things to His Father's satisfaction, then submits to His Father's rule in an action which once again enables Jehovah to "become KIng"?
To me this argument is a whole heap of smoke for which there is...just...no....fire!!!