James Thomas Rook Jr.

TTH:

Your opinion that "If you do not  know and understand  history, you are doomed to repeat it.", is a "load of manure" really surprises me. Up until now I knew you did not pay much attention to detail, but I thought you were smarter than THAT.
You have to know and understand history .... and learn from it ... not to fall into the same trap that has ensnared so many others, and perhaps even one's self
That is what EXPERIENCE IS !!!
LEARNING FROM HISTORY.!!!
To learn from it, you have to know IN DETAIL what has gone on around you before you stumbled on the scene. and understand what it really means.  OFTEN it's not what we know that makes a difference ... but what we know that IS NOT WRONG.
Details make the difference !
And now, for a musical interlude to lighten things up, with your very own introduction, illustrating my point that you are NOT a detail oriented person.

... and for those in Rio Linda ... it's "Beachwood 4-5789".
 

The Marvelettes - Beechwood 4-5789.mp4 On an old rotary phone, circa 1960, you would dial BE4-5789, in the United States.

That cliche is happening right now!  The whole world is repeating the same history we saw before WW1 and WW2 right now!!. It looks different on the surface but yet the same....... so they will wake up too late.  Wicked mankind is doomed to repeat the same history over and over with worse results than ever before. 
We should know our own JW history with its flaws but endless analyses  on it does not serve a purpose - each generation  of GB will make new mistakes and if your expectations are that the JW.org. will not make new mistakes or cannot make them  - think again. 
Thankfully there are several  ibble principles we can apply to this:  jehovah judges the end of a matter not its beginning.  Wicked king  manasseh  comes to mind.
Jehovah does not see the imperfection but the motive of the heart. Ps 103 comes to mind - he remembers we are flesh.  The world judges JWs harshly on every little detail but jehovah judges us with tenderness because we try hard to do his will in an increasing hostile world.  Jesus was perfect and was viciously attacked by satan's world -  we also  will not get off lightly
The light is getting brighter - and JWs are fulfilling bible prophecy related to the last days   Matt 24:14,  Isaiah 2:2-4.  Other Christian religions do not even  understand that the kingdom is a real government and those that do have some other core beliefs that do not come from the bible.
We should be thankful to jehovah.  We get food that is prepared  in abundance. We get home from work, prepare litteral food, and can sit down with spiritual food already prepared in easy understandable bites/bytes..
We search for people with the right heart condition. We teach them the newest  bible information we have because this is what we as JW org are right now and  the light we understand at this moment.  We make them aware of our flawed past but to dwell on the past JW history is a mistake.  There are too many positive core teachings the person will not be able to learn from ANY other earthly organization and we must let them eat this first so they can make a decision to join us to serve jehovah  -  or not.  Lot's wife looked back to her detriment.  We must leave our own personal history behind (what high positions we had or could have been, or wicked history ) and focus on the now and the future.  JW  org history is good to know but does NOT affect what we are right now. Mistakes were made and they will definitely come back to bite us in a hostile world - for sure. But we should build our own faith now to withstand the trials ahead.
People who come to this forum to troll or hate - do not have a ready heart.   On field service we go back to those who show a positive attitude or are prepared to learn despite them having difficult personalities .  We help those who are ready to receive help.  With difficult people I make sure to leave a thought they can think about to change their heart condition. We plant and jehovah makes it grow - or not.....
Keep evaluating what is taught in the present era - if it is in line with scripture.  Are the GB careful in what they teach today? Not getting political? Sticking to the godly commission of preaching and giving proper spiritual food to all?   Preparing us to be ready for Armageddon?  Not rushing ahead with dates and prophecies like they did before?  I can answer a yes to all of these.
 
106 years is nothing to jehovah.  I do not know how long before the flood Noah had completed the ark.   Food had to be harvested etc. They could have been mocking him saying:  where is the rain you promised...... your ark has been standing there for so long.... maybe the wood aged a bit in its positions and additional bitumen was needed.  120 years jehovah set for that doomed generation. Did Noah know it was 120 years? Maybe not..... but later he knew because it is written down.  
The world is mocking us right now.  I love to study ancient history and discovered one aspect  of generation before the GB.   There are multiple generations always living at the same time.  This never bothered me because like Noah we should keep busy with the right things. The evidence around us is overwhelming.  We have been trained by GB to discern the time! ....a d to keep busy with the right things.

This is the most ridiculous.....excuse me.......MOM—put your joint out! I can smell it wafting down here! Remember.....catch the house on fire and I don’t have a fire escape down here!

Is @Leander H. McNelly  another Phantom of the Opera who are created just for down-vote? :)))
 

Unfortunately, this saying is a load of manure, imo. You repeat it regardless. 

The reasons of strict attention to history is this:
If you do not know and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.
This is based on the FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.
Since you are not concerned with our history ... you are doomed to repeat it.
..... as you have just demonstrated.

The reasons of strict attention to history is this:
If you do not know and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.
This is based on the FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.
Since you are not concerned with our history ... you are doomed to repeat it.
..... as you have just demonstrated.

The reasons of strict attention to history is this:
If you do not know and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.
This is based on the FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.
Since you are not concerned with our history ... you are doomed to repeat it.
..... as you have just demonstrated.

Oh, I want to see this! TTH vs. JWI
 
I know you can't wait to do this

Yes, and that according to Bible chronology, the FDS was appointed in 1919. So if 1914 was questioned, when were the FDS appointed? It would remove that whole aspect of what we have been taught, including the brothers being in prison. 
I agree though that in reality it shouldn't change much about the authority of those taking the lead, because the scriptures say to be obedient to them. And I agree with the sister, I thought it was nothing new either (regarding the FDS only being the GB). But still, everyone is aware that Jesus was supposed to have appointed a specific group to provide spiritual food. If 1914 was removed, that small specific group would be dispersed and would include anyone who was feeding others spiritually, as you have suggested. All this would remove the thought that the GB are the only channel God is using, although G.Jackson admitted that it would be presumptuous to think that they were the only chanel. However I don't think he, or any of the others have put this in writing in any of our publications though. So unless someone has read Jackson's ARC deposition, they will be under the impression that the FDS, therefore the GB  are the ONLY chanel God is using, and therefore to question anything they say is tantamount to going against God himself. A few know this is not true, and the GB themselves think it's not true, but most  r&f believe it. (As you know, this was the reason why I got kicked out of one forum*. And this is  also why it appears that we "worship" the GB, because anything and everything they say is gold and must not be questioned, even if it could be wrong....because they are not infallible and can err...). 
*Questioning God is allowed, but questioning the GB is not! How strange is that?

Of course, there's also an implication throughout the context of Acts, that God does not give that holy spirit to those who obey men. That's one of the reasons for this very topic of 1914, as uncomfortable as it might seem to even question it.
Of course, obeying God as ruler and not men, doesn't preclude us from "obeying" our congregation elders (Heb 13:17). But there is no contradiction here, because the word used for the word obey here has a range of meaning. And that range of meaning is pinned down in the very context of Hebrews 13 and elsewhere. 
In fact, we might as well deal with it because there will be some who think it is "disobedient" to even consider the questions about 1914. It's the same as questioning God's arrangement, some say. Just like questioning 1925, or the hourly quotas for publishers and pioneers, would have been the same as 'questioning the Lord himself' in Rutherford's day.
When Hebrews 13 says "Be obedient to those taking the lead among you" it's obvious that the term "among you" referred to congregation overseers/elders. We extend this to mean the elders who preside in a "headquarters" arrangement from the various Branches, especially the Governing Body residing in the United States Branch. But the word here does not mean "obey" in the sense of "you must obey God as ruler." In Acts 5:29 that term includes the idea of submission to a ruler or magistrate (i.e., God).
The definition of "obey" in the context of Hebrews 13:17 is perfectly summed up in this verse that doesn't even use the word obey:
(Hebrews 13:7) . . .Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.
The root meaning of the term is actually "persuade." Hebrews 13 uses the verb "peitho" here, and Peitho was the goddess of persuasion. That's actually the first meaning in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
1. Peitho, proper name of a goddess, literally, Persuasion; Latin Suada or Suadela.
2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Corinthians 2:4 ἐν πειθοι — accusative to certain inferior authorities.
Strong's NT Definition is:
πείθω peíthō, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):—agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
Note that "obey" hardly makes the list.
Even the NWT doesn't say in Hebrews 6:9 that "in your case we are obedient to bettr things." Instead it says:
(Hebrews 6:9) 9 But in your case, beloved ones, we are convinced of better things. . .
In the very verse after Hebrews 13:17, the word "trust" is used, in these of being "persuaded" or "convinced" that we have a good conscience.
(Hebrews 13:18) . . .Carry on prayer for us, for we trust we have an honest conscience, as we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things.
I know you didn't say that this type of obedience contradicts our Christian duty to question and therefore to make sure of all things. But Hebrews 13 often comes up by some as a reason to deflect from that Christian duty.

You are saying that they (GB) hang on to 1914 because if they get rid of it, they relinquish a Biblical base of authority. It's "nice" to have a Bible passage that talks about you and it's even "nicer" when that particular passage mentions a measure of authority and trust in advance of even greater authority and trust.
I'm just saying that the reason they see the passage as speaking about themselves is because of 1914 first. Based on the importance given to that date, they expect to see certain actions that Jesus must have taken, or that it would seem reasonable for him to take. So it's kind of backwards to imply that they hang on to the date because of the authority. They hang onto the authority because of the date.
But I'm also saying that this authority would be there anyway. Sure, they lose a little if they give "FDS" back to all the anointed, or even if they spread that authority around to include all the elders, or all Witnesses who support [feed] other Witnesses in any way, materially or spiritually or emotionally. (Recall that the verse once meant the anointed feeding the anointed, because the domestics were the anointed, too.)
Common sense tells us that the purpose of elders in a congregation is to provide teaching and examples to follow and good judgment when it comes to dealing with difficult matters that might arise. We follow their lead. We listen. We copy their example. They persuade us to follow with good teaching and good examples.
How much more would we think that the ones we consider qualified as elders over the global congregation would be worthy of even more respect. And we would be just as willing or more to follow their lead, listen, copy their example, etc.
This is why it really came as no surprise to many Witnesses that the GB took upon themselves the entire role they interpreted to be the role of the FDS. To most Witnesses, the FDS always meant the GB anyway. The GB already represented the rest of the anointed in general, who had no say anyway. It was the GB, as head of the departments for Writing, Teaching, Service, Correspondence, etc., who were already considered the top of the "Bethel" headquarters hierarchy. It didn't matter if a certain thing was written by a member of the "other sheep," it was still considered to be under their direction. I actually asked a pioneer sister at the time if she had heard about the new GB=FDS doctrine right after that point from the Annual Meeting was announced on the website. She honestly thought that this was nothing new.
In other words, something like this same respect for their teaching and example would have happened naturally as a matter of course. It has probably happened in every religion known to man. There have even been other religions that speak of their leadership councils as governing bodies. The level of agreement by the "rank-and-file" Witnesses (as Anthony Morriss III calls us) is just like other religions: a function of the emphasis given on the importance of this level of agreement.

Do you mean this?
"Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.
WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.
 

Russell was an excellent student of the Bible. He knew it well. He wrote about the Bible very capably. He preached it. He clearly had insights into many of its teachings and principles. He could use scripture to explain scripture. He could show excellent rational insight along with spiritual insight. He showed faith and he showed discretion and wisdom. And he was one of the most interesting men of his time, because was very aware of the world around him and used this knowledge to help explain some of these insights, but usually without getting too bogged down in the secular, political or scientific arguments of the day.
But, faith or no faith, he had absolutely no insight or understanding about the end of the gentile times. He made no prediction about a world war. He made absolutely no prediction about 1914 that came true. He made absolutely no prediction about the gentile times that came true.
Russell thought the "end of the gentile times" was the equivalent of the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of a Jewish government in PALESTINE, and the FINAL END of the United States government and economy, the FINAL END of the United Kingdom's government and economy, the FINAL END of the Turkish government and economy, the FINAL END of the Chinese, Japanese, Russian, German, French, Norwegian, and Mexican governments and economies, too. ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS would fall in 1914/1915 and it would be the FULL establishment of a divinely backed Jewish government in Jerusalem, with the re-establishment of Israel in Palestine.
We can only pretend that he got something right, because he predicted that the chaos of the complete fall of all these non-Jewish governments, along with the rise of Israel in Palestine, would result in a time of trouble that would END in 1914, and then around 1904, he changed it to BEGIN in 1914, and indicated that this chaos in the vacuum of any human political institutions would end in a matter of months after 1914, most likely ending in 1915.
Which part of his "insight" or "understanding" of this matter came true? Which part was correct?
It's true he started some backpeddling on his understanding in 1904 (mentioned above), then 1910, then 1913. That's because his view included some expectations that he considered unlikely in view of the time left. 
Russell didn't think Jesus' invisible presence would start in 1914. Russell didn't think that Jesus' kingship would start in 1914. Russell didn't think a great battle would be fought between Jesus and Satan in 1914. There's NOTHING that we NOW think happened around 1914, that Russell predicted, and he NEVER thought that any of those things (that we now believe about 1914) had happened even after he saw the events of 1914 for himself.
So where does anyone get the idea that Russell got even one thing right about 1914 prior to 1914?

@Srecko Sostar Fantastic comment. You are very deep thinking. But can you explain the last paragraph please. 
Indeed the first century Christians, and even the Jews around at that time, were given lots of 'signs' in ways of miracles, curing all sorts of disease, turning water into wine, producing food enough for 10.000 people or more (I think they only counted the men), raising the dead et al.  It was as much seen by the physical eye as it was faith.  But now it seems, no one expects miracles.. No one but me maybe. 
I loved the bit about Russell having 'faith'. gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
So it is today it seems with the GB and JWs. 
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@Outta Here   Quote " And the understanding we have now, as proclaimed by the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses and supported by their application of Scripture, would appear to me to bear this out."
More GB worshipping at it's best  The blind leading the blind and wow, that is a massive pit they've fallen into. 

We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   
Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 
People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 
faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.
If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.
It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 
Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  

I am thinking the same, but I don't think they see it that way. It seems that specific dates are very important to them....

Thanks for this reminder @Arauna
When I mentioned early in this topic that @Anna had brought up a couple of points/questions that I hadn't really been able to consider fully, this was one of them. It's easy to see what C.T.Russell was thinking when he said that wars, earthquakes and famine and pestilence, etc., were NOT part of the sign, because as he said, Jesus was here just telling us the common experience of mankind for the last 18 centuries.
But it is obvious that the fig tree appears to refer to some kind of sign that people can see is in advance of a season. This appears to counter the idea of Jesus and Paul that the times and seasons are none of our concern, not even the angels, but only the Father.
The current doctrine may have several apparent contradictions with scripture, but I don't want to just jump over to another interpretation that also has contradictions.

If the windows have glass, and the homes have internal plumbing, I hope some Brothers like to work at Home Depot.
I would sure hate to have to build a home where the only fasteners were strips of dried out cat gut.
 

"He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him"    (you will be representing God to him".)
This quote is from exodus 4 :16 where Moses will be a" God" to Aaron.    This does not mean Moses must be worshipped but he will represent God to Aaron and will in this capacity have higher position than Aaron when representing the people when going before pharoah.
In ancient times the word "god"  was often used for  the Ceasar.   Jesus is therefore also called "a God" in several places. Also in hebrews 1:9  "
You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”
 
 

So did you look up what it says in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures about the word sanctuary? 

Do you remember the subject  we were talking about?  If I remember correctly, you yourself quoted a scripture which showed that there is a replica in heaven of the earthly sanctuary in Israel's time and you quoted the scripture which says that  "flesh" is a barrier (curtain) to the heavenly sanctuary.  Only the high priest and under priests entered in this area in Israel's time.
Jesus gave up his "fleshly barrier"  and went went to " heaven"  in the heavenly sanctuary  and offered up his randsom to jehovah. It was accepted and holy spirit poured out on the 50th  day on his disciples on earth.   They were anointed as future kings and priests but had to die faithful  to death  and give up their earthly flesh to go into heavenly sanctuary to serve as king and priest. (Same as jesus).
The lady on this forum is still in flesh yet she wants to serve as a royal priest right now.  She rants against the GB because they are denying her royal priesthood because she cannot do her royal duties right now in the flesh here on earth.  Does it sound logical in the light of the scripture you quoted?
 

DUH !
It is very easy to be able to tell who can fulfill the scripture about being perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect ......they do not die.
If you can still require that from ANYONE, 500 years from now, I will consider your points to be valid.
My guess you will be lying on your back, with your arms folded across your chest, and sucking dirt, as will everybody else.alive today.

Doubtless it will. But no more so than the plight of brothers who are locked up in Eritria—it has occupied their attention for decades—where they don’t have a dime at stake. The aim it to stomp out the dissemination of Bible based beliefs, an aim with which you fully cooperate.
I learned long ago not to do this. Not matter how respectful and conciliatory one is, completely with imputing good motives, it does nothing to stem the vitriol you emanate toward those taking the lead in the Christian work.

I'll repeat what I said above.
 There is an in between. There is a 'safe harbour'. Not on the JW ship, but not in that murky water either. 
Um what happened, in your eyes, to the thoughts :-
To 'keep oneself without spot from the world'.   
To, 'first clean the inside of the dish or bowl, then the outside will also be clean'.
And for the true Anointed
English Standard Version
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
And you say :-
The problem is NOT that the "organization is "unclean" ... the problem is that it is plagued by the exact same things that plague ALL organized religion.
But it seems God said IT SHOULD NOT BE.