James Thomas Rook Jr.

YES!  That's it!   It's so clear to me now!

God temporarily gave them permission to fly.

What is the difference between being dogmatic and critical argument? Is it philosophy or belief in polarization?
Do I believe witnesses are dogmatic? Compared to, which religious organization. Can we say Jesus was dogmatic? Does anyone have an answer about Jesus and the apostles?

I thought I already gave you an answer to that, that of course God knew, and therefor Greenlees couldn't have been appointed by God using holy spirit.
 
Claiming one thing and actually doing it are different. And we have already established God is not deceived.
 
If the Pope qualifies by doing God's will according to the Bible, seen and unseen by human eyes,  then yes.

Try using reason and logic and common sense instead of disparaging personal insults.
It may not work, but at least you have done your duty in a civil manner ,,,, AND ... don't get expelled.
Destroy the arguments .... not the person.
Pretend you are Spock,
.... and get a thick skin, and a sense of humor.
Well, a person without legs WOULD be short.

You do not fight a war with the army you WISH you had ... you fight with the army you HAVE!
One characteristic of Narcissistic Personality Derangement is that EVERYTHING that is sub-optimum is someone else's fault.
Be a sport ... look it up.

It has been my experience being her for more than seven years that insulting ideas is O.K. ... but without OBVIOUS prior justification, insulting specific people is verboten, but even then,  a great deal of patience is shown before the boom is dropped, and only after many warnings, hints and objections.
It's THAT simple, but the clueless never get it.
... but to be fair, I have known BRILLIANT people, with Master and Doctors Degrees, that could not find their way out of a room, if a stripe was painted on the floor, with arrows.
The clueless will NEVER "get it", because they have Narcissistic Personality Derangement which is a very real affliction ( look it up), and they are literally incapable of understanding the concept.
They are no more capable of overcoming it than an amputee can grow new legs.
 

Private clubs can set any rules that they want.
I have house rules that Ah wants, and have had quarrelsome guests removed by the police, so I did not have to shoot them, which would have involved a LOT of paperwork.
 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. is such a wuss. We all know it.
Given how, at the drop of a pin, he lauds Trump to the high heavens, and given how Alan is unambiguous in denouncing that luminary, @Anna and I thought we had front row seats for the battle of the century! They are both pugnacious. Neither knows the meaning of holding back in the slightest detail. How could we go wrong?
We sold tickets to the event. We lined up vendors. We had programs printed. And what happens?
A LOVEFEST! “You have never disappointed me, James,” Alan coos.
It has cost us serious money in refunds—and I had most of my money spent pampering Mrs. Harley!
WELL, IT IS NOT HAPPENING AGAIN!!!!
”Man-induced climate warming” is a problem that “may well” end the world, Alan says—and WHO has raged on and on that global warming is a HOAX to fool the GULLIBLE sheeple for the sake of left-wing politics, the politics that Alan adores? JTR - THAT’S who. By all rights, this ought to be the mother of all wars, even greater than the Trump/no-Trump war!
But he punted on that war!
He will punt on this one, too—the big wuss. Anna, keep your counsel to yourself! I am NOT going to print up tickets, again.
 

I CAN explain it all ... I have been watching, and studying  for more than 50 years.
I try NOT to think like, or be,  a professional child.
I do NOT think I have enough "spirit" to judge anyone .... in the sense of somehow punishing them.
My only judgement of "them" is to avoid and ignore "them"
... I do enjoy the option of being able to enforce my preferences, if necessary.
...which most people might consider a blessing.

IF
 
I have a nose, NOW.

There is always the final arbiter .... the "smell test".

What gets me is, as in the book 1984 ... the Society revises history, as stated in the examples given above,
That was Winston Smith's JOB ... to revise history.
THEN .... when called on their actions, stare blankly into the headlights and say "No, we didn't!"
It's a good thing I understand such things as normal to all people, or it would "stumble" me.
 

I am still of the opinion that when translating from ENGLISH, to another language, a person MUST be a fluent EXPERT at both languages, and have lived in areas where both are spoken extensively, and also have a DEEP knowledge of the history and culture of both places, AND have a potload of plain old common sense .... which is not all that common.
I suspect that this is true in all other language translations.
We have Bible translations in over a thousand languages (...or is it just some Bible literature?) ... but how good are those translations?
The Polish people fought the Nazi tanks on horses, with horse drawn artillery, and they acquitted themselves magnificently ... but it was no contest, and they lost miserably.
..... same thing.

Anna said:
It's gross deception. Why? Because it deliberately gives a completely false picture of what the Bible Students said.
That's like saying the Nazi's tried hard not to be dogmatic about Nazism, but didn't always succeed.
Tell me if the statements quoted below about 1918 and 1920 are dogmatic or not.
The Finished Mystery, 1917, pages 62, 64, said with great authority:
<<
The data presented in comments on Rev. 1:1... prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.
The awakening of the sleeping saints, A.D. 1878, was just half way (three and one-half years each way) between the beginning of the Times of Restitution in 1874 and the close of the High Calling in 1881. Our proposition is that the glorification of the Little Flock in the Spring of 1918 A.D. will be half way (three and one-half years each way) between the close of the Gentile Times and the close of the Heavenly Way, A.D. 1921.
>>
These predictions failed. More forceful language was used in the predictions of a terrible destruction due to come on Christendom's churches and their members in 1918, with their dead bodies strewn about unburied. Pages 484-485 said:
<< Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." >>
Page 513 said:
<< In the year 1918, when Christendom shall go down as a system to oblivion.... God will cause the nations to shake with gigantic revolutions. >>
The book also predicted stupendous events for 1920. On page 258 it said:
<<
Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920...
Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy...
The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy.
>>
On page 542 it said:
<< As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all-embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. >>
How about the following statements about 1925? Were they dogmatic or not?
The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90:
<< . . . we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old . . . >>
The May 15, 1922 Watch Tower said:
<<
We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.
It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need?
Using this same measuring line... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.
>>
I could go on with this for a long time, but here's the link on this that I already gave you: https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-3-statements-concerning-1918-1925.html
Not dogmatic? Please!
The split is more like 90-10 when it came to anything to do with the Gentile Times stuff the Proclaimers book was discussing.
Believe what you like. Quotes like the above say different.
Time to go beddie-bye.

Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad,  and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah".  As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....

James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
I suspect that this is true in all other language translations.
I completely agree -- in principle. In practice, with the Bible we're dealing with three dead languages, so there exist no fluent speakers. Nevertheless, I think competent scholars still do a pretty good job of translating. That's esecially so when independent scholars arrive at essentially the same translations.
Pretty spotty, I expect.

TrueTomHarley said:
Again we witness Orwellian crimestop.
The point, Einstein, is that these JWs did not make this nonsense up for themselves, but read the predictions for 2000 in Watchtower publications. Do a little looking on the jwfacts website and you'll find some quotes. Or read some in my response to Anna above.
Yes indeed. That paragon of scholastic aptitude gets all of the Real Soon Now nonsense from the Watchtower Society.
     
Are you really this stupid? 1941, 1975, 2000 and Real Soon Now are certainly within peoples' lifetimes. 1975 is NOT arguable, as the links I posted prove.
Unfortunately, JW leaders' counsel on that has often been accompanied by predictions of specific years to watch out for: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 2000.
We continue to witness Orwellian crimestop.
     
TrueTomHarley said:
I did not start this -- others did.
As the criticisms of fundamental JW beliefs pile up, JW apologists pull out all the stops to avoid discussion.
Here we see TTH sticking his fingers in his ears, shouting La-la-la-la-la! and doing his best to sidestep and deflect issues that show his cult leaders in a truly bad light.

TrueTomHarley said:
Nonsense. The fact is that I'm quite objective about these things, and as a result have strongly disagreed with some critics of the NWT. You're simply too stupid to understand that, as evidenced by your comments below:
Wrong on both counts. A classic instance of the fallacy known as The False Dilemma.
So what?
Franz was insane but brilliant. A sort of idiot savant of religion. Such people are capable of feats far beyond those of mortal men.

On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner.
'For fear of stumbling others'.  They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal. 
I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie  It was soooooooooo funny.
When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ?  Where is the sense of balance ? 
 

James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
Well -- sometimes.
Indeed -- something that high-control-group leaders like the JW Governing Body always forget. They dictate their version of "a good conscience" to the group members and boot out all who disagree. Thus, members either adopt the leaders' conscience, or they shut up.

Srecko Sostar said:
To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations. The translation itself is not much open to discussion, as virtually all Bible translations use "day".
Quite so. The original NWT Committee was comprised mostly of gophers like Albert Schroeder who did busy-work like making cross references. A Greek name George Gangas helped a bit with the Greek translation, but he had no education, and his Greek was modern Greek, not 1st century Greek.
The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew. He was entirely self-taught in Hebrew. It seems that much of Franz's knowledge of Hebrew came from looking up words in Hebrew-English lexicons and looking at many Bible translations. He also elicited help from a scholarly Jew living in Brooklyn, and from at least one recognized Bible scholar (Goodspeed?) who produced his own partial Bible translation.
In 1994 I met one other actual WTS scholar who seemed competent, but of course he had nothing to do with the original New World Translation. He died about 20 years ago. He was a Romanian named John Albu, who immigrated to the U.S. around 1970, and quickly became a JW, and soon an "anointed one". He soon joined Bethel and worked on translation and chronology stuff. He told me that he was educated in Europe in Hebrew, Greek and other languages. Eventually serious health issues forced him out of Bethel, but he continued to work closely with the Writing Staff. He worked as a doorman for a hotel in Manhattan. It's fairly certain that Albu did much of the research that resulted in the infamous chapter 14 of the 1981 WTS book "Let Your Kingdom Come", written by GB member Lloyd Barry. He told me that part of the reason he became a JW was that the NWT was so fabulously accurate.
I suspect that Franz and Albu would strongly object to the new NWT. While it's far more readable in many areas, it violates Franz's dictum that the NWT should be literal to a fault, being more of a "dynamic translation" in the spirit of the New International Version. Of course, Freddie always skewed his translations in favor of pre-existing Watchtower doctrine, sometimes stretching Hebrew and Greek meanings to their limits, and occasionally past those limits.
My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most. They all have inaccuracies and various warts, but in different areas. Much of the criticism of the NWT comes from Christian scholars who are obligated by their religions to argue in favor of doctrines like the Trinity, and so often use really bad arguments to criticize the NWT. I think that Fred Franz was a brilliant but insane man who fell into C. T. Russell's cult at an early age and never recovered.

Anna said:
The Society made direct statements as well as more subtle suggestions. Take a gander:
<< How thrilling that must have been for Paul and Barnabas-sailing to their first foreign assignment! The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our century. >> January 1, 1989 Watchtower, p. 12
Note that "in our century" was changed to "in our day" in the bound volume and in the CDROM Library.
Note that when the following statements were made, the Society was teaching that "the generation of 1914" meant the group of people alive in 1914 who survived until "the end".
<< Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. >> -- "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah"-How? - 1971
<< And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end. >> -- October 15, 1980 Watchtower, p. 31
<< It has been thrilling to see the fulfillment of Jesus’ sign showing that the Kingdom was established in the heavens in that momentous year 1914. And Jesus has told us to rejoice at seeing the dark storm clouds of Armageddon gathering since that time. He has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—”will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! >> -- March 1, 1984 Watchtower, pp. 18-19
<< The Time for a Change Is Near!
Carole, from France, has a “marvelous hope” and foresees, for the near future, “something marvelous—not at all like the world we live in.” Samuel, a 15-year-old youth from the same country, also believes in a complete change: “For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don’t think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day. . . We are living in the last days of the system of things.” Ruth, a German girl of 16, also expresses her confidence in these changes: “I know I’m not smart enough to change the world and make things run right. Only Jehovah, our Creator, can and will do that soon.” >> November 8, 1986 Awake!, pp. 7-8
 

The way the Bible expresses it is: “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”  By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.” 1 Tim 6:20
The verse you are looking for is: “The wisdom of this world is such that God could learn a thing or two from it if he wasn’t so brain-dead.”
Let me know when you find it.