15 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

You are forgetting the part where Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass away until all of these things occur... Therefore, no, it could not go on for hundreds of years more. 

All what things occurring? We already discussed how the 'world conditions' Jesus mentioned were common to every era. We've also discussed how they have generally improved over the centuries. 

How long is 'a generation' anyway? What was Jesus' original intent and how would his audience have understood him back then? How do you know these past 102 years is what Jesus was referring to? 

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Also, no, Jehovah is not backing the SDA's because they have not followed the command to "get out of" or separate themselves from "Babylon the Great" thereby not allowing themselves to be "a people for Gods name." 

You said an organization's great success in expanding worldwide, spreading the Bible's message in many hundreds of languages couldn't be done without God's blessing, backing and support. 

"No other efforts to organize global preaching have or will ever come anywhere close to achieving the kind of success the witnesses are having. The only explanation can be that they have Jehovahs backing, blessing and support! If not, it wouldn't be getting done! Period!" - Teresa Morales, 10/12/16

And yet here are the SDAs who have far surpassed JWs in this regard. If you do not think Jehovah is backing the more prosperous SDAs, then you likewise can't point to the JW organization's achievements as evidence for divine blessing, wouldn't you agree?

*** w01 1/15 p. 17 par. 3 ***
"Of course, the number of those associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses is not a criterion for determining if they enjoy divine favor; nor do statistics impress God."

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"Unpredictable" is not in keeping with the spirit in which Jesus was giving answer to his disciples. The mere fact that Jesus stated the things that would indicate the "conclusion" of this system of things, and adding that no one knows the "day or the hour," (not year or decade) Jesus would not have said to "keep on the watch" if there wasn't to be anything to "watch" for... 

I think you have it backwards. Jesus said not to be misled by looking at common world conditions and using them to second-guess when his presence would be ("but the end is not yet" - Mt. 24:6). He said not to be misled by those who claimed Jesus was here ('but,' [paraphrasing] 'you just can't see him because he's away in the desert or hiding inside a room somewhere' - 24:23f.). He said that just like in Noah's day the people were living their lives unaware of when the Flood would come until it was upon them, so it would be with his presence - no one would know until it happened (24:37f.). 

If Jesus' presence could be predicted, why urge his disciples to keep on the watch all the time? Why not instead get them to wind their spiritual clocks and set the alarm for midnight October 2 or 4/5, 1914? (His original audience would be long dead anyway.)
 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

I am under the impression he has become an atheist now.

Along with JW Insider, I can also confirm that he has remained a Christian believer. And yes, he wasn't upset because he "wasn't being heard as he would have liked to have been heard," but because he had found out what the Society had been teaching was demonstrably false, because he kept getting the brush-off from HQ, and because there was an underhanded campaign to vilify him in his JW community. ...

... You know, the usual way big organizations treat dissenters and whistleblowers. 

On 10/12/2016 at 6:50 PM, Teresa Morales said:

[Ann] How do you know you will see it in your lifetime? The early Bible Students thought they would see it in their lifetimes as has each subsequent BS/JW generation after that. So how do you know that you and your generation will be the one?

[Teresa] The answer is simply this: 

To paraphrase, Jesus said that when we first begin to see these things occurring, "The end is not yet." And then later he gave a direct answer of what changes in world conditions would signify the "conclusion of this system of things." 

Granted, everything he mentioned could be identified as a "common" problem, situation or condition at one time or another, that was the point. Great bolts of lightening and the loud sound of a horn were not going to be alerting the masses that prophecy was being fulfilled. 

Given that Jesus mentioned 'common' problems and conditions (and instructed his disciples not to be misled by those 'signs' - Matt. 24:4f.; also cp. v. 44), what specific changes in world conditions did Jesus point to that unequivocally pinpoint when the 'conclusion of the system of things' and the downfall of Satan and his demons would be? 

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However, he was very clear that these conditions would continue to increase in number and severity to the extent that anyone keeping "on the watch" would be able to recognize its significance.

The only increase Jesus mentioned was the "increasing of lawlessness" (24:12). Statistically, crime rates fluctuate but mainly have been on a downward trend.

As far as homicide goes, it was much more dangerous to live in centuries past.

https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/

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How do you think the men of old felt about the promise to, "bring to ruin those ruining the Earth?" We'll have to ask them to know for sure. But, in this critical time in history, governments are putting limitations on corporations and imposing fines and sanctions against those causing severe negative impact on the environment.

I doubt that men of old were ecologically aware like we are today, so did John of Patmos have 'ecological' ruining in mind?

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 Mankind has once again, just as in Noah's day, ruined his way upon the Earth. And this time, it's in a way that they don't even know how to fix! 

That's a very blanket statement. There are multiple issues - social, moral, economic, health, ecological, etc., etc. Some problems are fixed, some aren't or can't be at the moment, and some are being worked on.

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About the, "presence of the son of man," Jesus told us that it would be just like Noah's day. Men and women getting married (nowadays even to the same sexes) and saying, "Where is this promised presence of his?" And "they took no note, until the flood came and swept them all away!" 

I think you are conflating Jesus' words with Peter's. There is no indication that the antediluvians were questioning Jesus' promised presence. Moreover, they simply 'did not know' when the Flood was coming until it was upon them and took them by surprise (this is the whole point of the illustration - like the Flood, Jesus' Parousia will be unpredictable). 

The NWT poorly renders the Greek as 'took no note' in this verse. As a sidebar, compare the changed rendering in the rNWT with that in the older NWT at John 17:3. The same word ginōskō used there is also used in Jesus' illustration, but in the latter instance, the antediluvians did not 'know' or 'come to know.'

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But all of this aside, there was one more thing that Jesus included in the list of things that would indicate the exact "generation" that would live to see the fulfillment of that prophecy. He said, "... this good news of Gods Kingdom will be preached to entire inhabited Earth, as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come!" Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching at an unprecedented rate, and are expanding into all "four corners" of the earth... and no one, not even Satan with all his demons, can stop the progress of those being gathered together to worship the "only true," Almighty God Jehovah, Creator of the Universe! No other efforts to organize global preaching have or will ever come anywhere close to achieving the kind of success the witnesses are having. The only explanation can be that they have Jehovahs backing, blessing and support! If not, it wouldn't be getting done! Period! And Jehovah never takes action against law defying people without first giving them a warning and providing for them a way out!

How do you account for the better success and growth of other Christian religions? For example, the JWs' distant cousins, the Seventh Day Adventists, have been around for about the same time and yet in 2014 they had over 18 million members, missions all over the world, preaching in over 900 languages, as well as health care ministries, educational programs and relief agencies.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/

Has God been backing, blessing and supporting the SDA church too?

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So, a good question for you to ask yourself would be, "Would I have gotten on the ark?" 

Hard to do if you're half a world away from it. A more pertinent question for Christians is, "Biblically-speaking, what or who corresponds to the ark during the Gospel Age?"

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[Ann] And doesn't it bother anyone that the 'Gentiles' are still having their 'times' over 100 years after the' Gentile times' supposedly ended?

[Teresa] Is that really so? Please explain why that is your opinion. On what are you basing that comment? 

On the objective fact that the 'Gentile' governments are still in administration upon the everyday affairs of Planet Earth.

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[Ann] Really? Earthquakes, wars, pestilence, food shortages, persecution, evangelism and lawlessness have only occurred together in the 20th and 21st centuries?

[Teresa] Despite those who might suggest that there is an alternative explanation for the significant increase in frequency and severity of the events outlined in Jesus "composite sign," they fail to disprove the claim that Satan and his demons have whipped society into a frenzy, on a global scale, that has caused terror and despair to thrive unabated, and has resulted in the oppression and persecution of god fearing individuals. This is happening globally, and is not getting any better with the advancement of science and technology. 

See comments above.

The whole world isn't in frenzied chaos. If you were living in Aleppo or similar, you might be forgiven for thinking so at the moment. Are you living in Aleppo? Or are you living peacefully in your home, able to go to the market, drive to work, openly worship at your KH and evangelize door-to-door? If so, it suggests a measure of community and governmental stability, does it not - the opposite of 'frenzy' and 'chaos'?

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[Ann] Define 'very short.'

[Teresa] Okay... 
When you consider that Satan started out as a perfect angel, then he was alive even before the Earth was created. Therefore, he could possibly have been in existence for countless millions upon millions of years. At the very least, he is without a doubt, older than the human race! The idea of a human living to be even only one thousand years old today, is preposterous! That's because Jehovah set a limit on us so that a lifespan would be kept to 70 or 80 years on average. So when Jesus said that Satan would be confined to the earth, he described him as walking around as an angry lion, seeking to devour someone. He warned us that the, "Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a 'short period of time!" Those are Jesus words. And if the generation that sees the "composit sign" is to also see "the conclusion of this system of things," then that sets the clock ticking against Satan. And on anyone's scale of relativity, millions of years leading up to being hurled out of heaven, compared to a "generation" of being confined to the Earth, constitutes a "very short time!" And if all the chaos on earth is an indication that the prophecy was indeed fulfilled, and I believe it does, doesn't that indicate that even Satan believes in that prophecy, and that Jehovah's will is soon to be carried out? 

What you are in effect saying is, as far as we and our lifespans are concerned, the term 'very short' is meaningless since it's only relative to the vast timescales of supernatural beings. Consequently, Satan's 'very short' time could yet run to thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions of years - a blink of an eye considering the billions of years he and our planet have existed. ... Which brings us full circle to my initial questions:

How do you know you will see it in your lifetime? How do you know that you and your generation will be the one?
 

So far you have presented various eisegetical perceptions and suppositions that do not match with observable reality.

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think that Matthew 24:37-39 not only 'sits well' with this suggestion, it offers additional evidence for it. ... ....

[rest of post snipped]

Precisely! When I was looking at the Bible's teaching about Jesus' Return/Parousia/Coming with fresh eyes all those years ago, it was a 'slap head' moment being scripturally led to the same conclusions as you have outlined in your past few posts. You've explained it so well. 

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Your assessment of my certainty is rather presumptous

My assessment is purely based on what you have presented in answer to my question. Nothing more.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

2 Tim 2:19 was cited in answer to your warning about "false Christs" and  is to reassure you that Jehovah knows those on His side in these issues of dispute as to who represents Him in the "last days" (as He has also known on occasions past).

Regarding the attempts of these "false Christs" to mislead His people, which are referenced  in your quoting of Matt. 24:23-27. Whilst the intensity of those attempts to mislead is duly noted, so also is the statement "if possible". I can only echo Paul's words at Romans 8:38-39 and conclude from those that it is not actually possible for the false Christs to succeed in their attempts to "separate us from God's love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord", regardless of the intensity and ingenuity of their arguments.   

Then how could Russell and Rutherford have been misled about Christ's presence, if they were also, not only part of His people, but claimed chosen leaders of His people? The attempts to mislead Russell were successful, since he died believing the wrong thing about Jesus' presence.

If you are arguing that wrong beliefs don't separate a true and sincere believer from God's love, then surely the same standard would apply to other Christian churches and their mistaken beliefs, would it not?

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Satan's defeat in the heavens at Michael's hand took place in 1914.

That's an assertion. What evidence do you have that this occurred in 1914?

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This view is not shared by everyone I know, although many who oppose the idea of a super-human cause for mans' current woes are at a loss to provide an alternative explanation or solution.

Alternative explanations center on social and political upheavals rather than invisible super-human causes. Regarding solutions, until there is a cataclysmic extra-terrestrial/super-human intervention, humans in the here-and-now will have to muddle through and find solutions of their own.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Satan certainly does not share Oscar Wilde's feeling on publicity.

How do you know what Satan thinks about publicity or if it aligns with Oscar Wilde's view? 

2 Tim. 2:19 doesn't help answer the question 'how do you know Rev. 12:7-12 'actually' started its fulfillment in 1914?', Eoin. You did provide a text that said love 'believed all things,' etc. However, I countered with Jesus' warning about not believing everything people would claim about his presence. You also offered this: 

Satan, the ruler of the world, is present.

But Satan was present as the ruler of the world back in the 1st century CE (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; 1 Pet. 5:8). What changed in 1914?

So far your certainty is based on wafer thin reasoning. Have you anything more substantial to present?

A Mobile Phone From 1922? Not Quite

History often plays linguistic tricks on us, especially when it comes to rapidly changing technologies

I recently came across a short, silent film from 1922 called Eve’s Wireless. Distributed by the British Pathe company, the film supposedly shows two women using a wireless phone. Apparently this video has been making the rounds for the past few years. Could it be an early demonstration of some futuristic technology? I hate to be the Internet’s wet blanket, but no. It’s not a mobile phone.

Rather than an early mobile phone, think of the box they’re holding as an early Walkman; because the two women on the street don’t have a telephone, but rather a crystal radio. The confusion comes from the fact that the term “wireless telephone” was widely used in 1922 for what we simply call “radio” today. ...

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a-mobile-phone-from-1922-not-quite-21291812/?no-ist
 

19 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The ruler of the world is present.

Which one? 

Satan's presence as ruler of the world?

Or Jesus' presence as ruler of the world? (Rev. 11:15)

46 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

1Cor.13:7

Matt. 24:23-27

21 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Oh come on, please! If they could get the date of Christs presence wrong then they could get the date of discerning it wrong at the same time couldn't they? It makes no difference to the actual event and the fact that Rev.12:7-12 started its fulfillment in 1914. 

How do you know Rev. 12:7-12 'actually' started its fulfillment in 1914? And if they were wrong about the date of Christ's invisible presence and wrong about discerning the sign of it, how are you sure they are right about it today?

5 minutes ago, Fmadriaga said:

I find it hard to find any lyrics from that music.

I don't think they are meaningful lyrics but vocal sounds and syllables.

On 9/27/2016 at 9:54 AM, Kurt said:

The FRANCISCO POPE PRAISES GOD’S WITNESSES WORLDWIDE ... 

...  Catholic Conference discusses increasing Witnesses

When did Pope Francis do this? Which Catholic conference was it? As will become apparent, Pope Francis did no such thing. 

Quote

The Catholic Church raised a “cry of alarm”, the newspaper La Republica, because every year ten thousand Catholics become Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Alan Murdock has pointed out that this is old news. The catholicsay article goes on to copy much of the March 22, 1987 Awake! article verbatim.

Given how old the information is, the 10,000 figure attributed to La Republica will reflect peak numbers of converts in the 1970s and '80s. If anyone's that interested, they can access Yearbooks from that period online to check the numbers being baptized. But it has to be said that firstly, not all who were baptized would have been Catholics (e.g. what about all the homegrown JW children?) and secondly, there have only been about 4,000 or 5,000 baptisms per year in more recent times.

On 9/27/2016 at 9:54 AM, Kurt said:

In an article that deals specifically with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica said: ...

The Awake! provides a more specific reference ...

In an editorial dealing specifically with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Jesuit magazine La Civiltá Cattolica of February 18, 1984, wrote: [etc.]

[bold emphasis mine]
 

... and here is the original online, for any Italian speakers here - scroll to pp. 313f.

La Civiltà cattolica, Issues 3205-3210, 1984, 'I Testimoni di Geova'

8 hours ago, Fmadriaga said:

I wonder if Paul Dinletir is a JW

I doubt it. Why would he be?

Here's the background story on him and his fellow composer, Carol Sovinski:

http://www.rockpaperscissors.biz/dispatch/99b2f39b9fdbf414f92ad9cf47fda92b

An extract of 'Eternal Flame' was used in the 2013 'Diana' movie trailer. 

The music is from 'epic music' producers 'audiomachine' who do tracks for movie trailers. The track the Org used for its 'Paradise video' is called 'Eternal Flame' and it's from audiomachine's 2012 'Epica' album.

Shouldn't we add to that heavy rock music and the electricity for the amp? 

18 hours ago, admin said:

I imagine the error-rate of these cosmic "speedometers" is yet to be established? I wonder how we know when we are getting "more accurate" measurements? 

 

I guess all astronomers can do is continue observing, collecting data, and refining. If they can improve their knowledge on how 'dark' matter and energy affect the universe's expansion rate, the predictions based on Cosmic Microwave Background will better harmonize with the results yielded from the 'standard candle' method. Prof. Riess explained,

“Ultimately, when Gaia is done, we ought to be able to measure the Hubble Constant to 1% precision. That’s the same precision that is predicted by the Cosmic Microwave Background. That will be really powerful.

"And if there is a discrepancy, if there's something interesting going on in the dark sector of the Universe, it should give us much better evidence of what that is”.

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Now you're just being plain nasty.

Cheeky, yes. 'Plain nasty,' no. Hence the wink smiley. Nevertheless, you were trying to wriggle round the evidence from Watchtower history that showed the "Kingdom Rules" statement to be untruthful.

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Advent Testimony folk and Armstrong's WWCG's may have demonstrated weird beliefs on various issues, but a common factor in their beliefs was that of an imminent return of Jesus Christ to rule as Jehovahs King. That is pretty amazing despite it's obscure expression... regardless of their eccentricities, even they could see it.

Why don't we add Harold Camping to the list of those validating BSs' and JWs' eschatological expectations too?

Unless one is a preterist, Christians generally believe in a future return of Christ, so how is it remarkable that Adventists and fringe Christian-based religions expect it as well?

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It's not about your quotes of what's written in Watchtower's period literature, it's more about the paucity of them.

The 'mouth of two or three witnesses' is insufficient to 'establish a matter' for you? How much testimony from the period literature would it take to convince you that the BSs had begun to discern the sign of Jesus' presence nearly 40 years earlier than 1914, according to their beliefs, thereby rendering the "Kingdom Rules" brochure inaccurate on that point?

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Actually, there's a thing. He does have communication skills so why not take a lesson there?  

Indeed he does.  However, as much as I enjoy and learn from reading JW Insider's posts, we have different styles and time availability. I'm a 'bullet point,' 'tl;dr' kinda gal who prefers cutting to the chase and using 10 words to express a thought rather than 100. 

Artwork: Gaia is making the definitive map of our Milky Way Galaxy

Europe’s Gaia space telescope has been used to clock the expansion rate of the Universe and - once again - it has produced some head-scratching.

The reason? The speed is faster than what one would expect from measurements of the cosmos shortly after the Big Bang.

Some other telescopes have found this same problem, too.

But Gaia’s contribution is particularly significant because the precision of its observations is unprecedented.

“It certainly ups the ante,” says Adam Riess from the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) and the Johns Hopkins University, both in Baltimore, Maryland, US.

The inability to lock down a value for the expansion rate has far-reaching consequences - not least in how we gauge the cosmic timescale.

If the Gaia speedometer is correct, it would mean having to reduce the estimated 13.88-billion-year age of the Universe by perhaps a few hundred million years.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37438458

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It isn't possible to weaselly word unintentionally.

That's a pity. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. 

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

You or (@Holly) just cannot know exactly what Bible Students did or did not begin to discern in 1914 or at any other time by selectively quoting from old publications no matter how interesting they are. You are at best surmising to support your own views.

We can know what Bible Students did or did not discern in 1914 or at other times because their writings from those times are available to read. If you can find a Bible Student publication from 1914 or the years following that specifically connects the year 1914 with the start of Christ's presence, then please post it here. Otherwise, we have to conclude that the 'Kingdom Rules' book has made an erroneous and misleading statement.

15 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

However, I do note that your copied extract of the Cedar Point report reflects a discernment of Christ being "present" in 1922, despite the rather premature starting point of 1874. That is a little earlier than 1930, the date of the earlier (earliest) quote from the Golden Age. So that's 8 years knocked off the 16 previously referenced in one go. We'll be back to 1914 in no time at all at this rate! 

 You cannot wriggle around it, Eoin. The BSs believed Christ's presence began in 1874 and, yes, that it was continuing through 1922 and beyond (duh). But this isn't what the 'Kingdom Rules' book claimed, is it? It claimed: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence" and not "In 1914, the Bible Students continued to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence that began in 1874."

16 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks for confirming the fascinating Advent Testimony's appearance in 1917. I was particularly impressed by:

Point 1. The present crisis points to the close of the Times of the Gentiles.

Point 5. That all human schemes of reconstruction must be subsidiary to the Second Coming of the Lord, because all nations will then be subject to His rule.

And this from non-Bible Students? Amazing indeed!

This is like using Armstrong's WWCG beliefs about what would happen in 1975 to validate the old JWs' beliefs about 1975. It's truly amazing that non-JWs also came to the conclusion that 1975 would be the end of the system of things, is it not? 

Anyway, the Bible Students were not looking forward to the Lord's Second Coming, because they thought he had already done so invisibly 40 years earlier. The Advent Testimony Manifesto also didn't have a year in mind for the close of the Gentile times - only that it would occur once Israel had been restored and converted. 

As for you being unpersuaded by what's written in Watchtower's period literature about what was taught and believed, well, 'a man convinced against his will ...' 

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

To be fair, I am pretty sure that if this comment was published in 1930, then the thought would have been around a lot earlier. The quote in question says "began to discern" in 1914. The word "discern" means "to distinguish with difficulty by sight or with the other senses " 

Clear discernment obviously takes time and may well be difficult.

Despite the erroneous view that Christ's presence started in 1874, there are enough references in the literature earlier than 1930 associating the events of 1914 and onwards as evidences of Christ's continuing presence. Enough for me to accept that discernment about what those events signified had it's beginnings at that time. 

I'm sorry, Eoin, but this is very weaselly worded - whether you intend it to be so or not.

The Bible Students simply did not 'begin to discern' or 'distinguish with difficulty by sight or with the other senses' in 1914 or in 1915 or in 1922* etc. that Jesus' presence started in 1914 because, as Holly has already pointed out to you, the Bible Students had already discerned that Jesus' presence had started in 1874. Bible Students 'began to discern' (or rethink the 1874 presence idea) long after 1914 

* The 1922 Cedar Point, Ohio convention and the famous call to 'advertise, advertise, advertise the King and his kingdom' re-establishes the Bible Students' firm belief that it was a fact Jesus' presence began in 1874. 

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

And indeed, with the "Advent Testimony" given wide attestation and distribution at least from late 1917 onwards, it appears that the Bible Students were not the only ones seeing divine significance in these events.  

The 'Advent Testimony Manifesto' was a) in 1917 - not 1914, and b) the reasoning behind their thinking that Christ's return was imminent was down to the Balfour Declaration and the move to re-establish Palestine as the Jewish homeland which was understood as fulfilling prophecy about the restoration of Israel, the rapture of the church, and Jesus' physically taking his kingship in Jerusalem! Is this in any way representative of JWs' version of 1914's significance? 

31 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

However, I see no error in stating that Bible stdents began to discern the sign of Christs invisible presence in 1914 nothwithstanding their actual beliefs at the time . People everywhere did, regardless of whether they understood the significance of the events or not.

But the Bible Students and other people didn't begin to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence in 1914. The idea that Christ had been invisibly present didn't begin to be discerned by Bible Students until about 1930 (g1930, April 30, p. 503-4 - the earliest published comment "that Jesus has been present since the year 1914"). The rest of the world continued not to discern it.

7 hours ago, Anna said:

1874 was Barbour's date.

It became the Organization's date too until about 1930.

Hahahaha, Allen. Anyone can colorize a black-and-white photo with a purplish tint or any tint you like, really. A genuine color version of that particular photo does not exist. Smh.

And nobody here (Arauna) is denying the Holocaust, or that JWs/Bible Students were thrown into concentration camps, had to wear a purple triangle and were treated appallingly.

What I am pointing out is that the image purporting to be JW detainees at Auschwitz is actually an image from Sachsenhausen and it is unknown who the prisoners were.

Note the caption to the photo on this webpage: http://ww2today.com/13-december-1944-sachsenhausen-concentration-camp-new-arrivals.

They could be anybody - with an added observation that, as JW Insider mentioned, one of them was wearing a double triangle of different colors, one of them shaded considerably darker than the triangles the others are wearing.

In fact, if we put a color picture of an original uniform with purple JW badge into b&w, we get this:

See how dark the purple appears in monochrome. The prisoners' triangles in the OP image were a much lighter shade.

Uniform photo source: http://www.alst.org/pages-us/primary-documents/purple-triangles.html

I remember seeing Dateline and Panorama when they first came out in 2002 and feeling ashamed at how the organization didn't 'treat its flock with tenderness,' sweeping these appalling crimes under the rug. The Org's priorities were all skewed. The two shows hit home all the more because members of my own family had been molested by a JW who inveigled himself into the hearts of vulnerable single/divorced JW mothers who had young daughters. The perp was eventually disfellowshipped but was reinstated a short time later after having feigned repentance. Back in business. Another area; another hapless, single JW mother in his sights.

Has the Org's attitude to child sexual abuse within its congregations really changed since then? Sadly, only negligibly until 2012 after the Candace Conti case. From that time, secular courts and public inquiries have still had to drag the Org, with its resistant heels ploughing up the ground, into making any small, tangible changes in its policies and procedures ... and it has a long way to go yet to raise its standards to meet those of 'worldly' institutions.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

One cannot deny the triangle whatever color you may personally think it is..... the same myopia!

Deny history.... this denial reminds me of the renegade Iranians.... deny, deny, deny....Death to all Jews... and Americans! they shout everyday in their mosques!

 

Huh?