On 9/15/2016 at 10:11 PM, AllenSmith said:

Meantime, try reading Pastor Russell’s Blog that was set by the Bible Students to answer your misplaced accusations. If not at least look at the Bible Student Monthly.

I did. Did you? If you did so with any basic comprehension, you would realize that Russell was saying 'the world' as in 'Planet Earth' would "abideth forever" but that he was promoting the idea that 'the world' as people knew it would end. I.e. the world system of things, the institutions, the 'Gentile' governments would be crushed out of existence (in fulfillment of Dan. 2:44); there would be a period of world-wide anarchy; the ungodly would be done away with; and then a millennium of peaceful messianic rule would be ushered in. 

Look:

The only one looking foolish is you, Allen.

On 8/26/2016 at 7:38 PM, The Librarian said:

Auschwitz. Jehovah's Witnesses prisoners shown here with their designated "purple triangles" sewn onto their uniforms.

Sachsenhausen. Hard to tell if the triangles are purple in a black-and-white photo. The shading may also suggest blue, red, green, pink or brown. 

On 9/12/2016 at 1:17 PM, AllenSmith said:

... opposers that use the same watchtower article to make their distorted claims. I’ve said it many times, they should read the entire article.

If you mean the two articles from the October and November 2011 Watchtowers, not only have I read the entire articles, but I've checked the original sources in the endnotes too. This is why I feel so appalled that the Writing Department could mangle the subject and misrepresent the academic sources in that way.

On 9/11/2016 at 4:33 AM, AllenSmith said:

Before the 90’s, opposers were scrutinizing the WTS for claiming the WTS had predicted the end of the world in 1914.

Again, you a disputing the historical facts. As you well know, Russell predicted, among other things, the end of earth's rulers in 1914 and the end of the 'world' as people knew it.

A few years after 1914, and despite none of Russell's predictions coming to pass, Rutherford proclaimed in true 'Emperor's New Clothes' fashion: 

"The World Has Ended! The Golden Age Is Here! Millions Now Living Will Never Die: This Means What It Says - It Is A Fact"

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because there’s no zero between Anno Domini and Common Era.

Um, what?

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With that said. The BLC expect for time periods which run entirely after 1992Elul, where the NBLC starts in the Hebrew month of Elul, was universal for early man. It was something that all civilizations used prior to 800 B.C. Even though one can surmise that calendar is closer to the prophetic calendar, but the lunisolar calendar is the most logical.

 

Lolol! Dear oh dear. You're using ex-JW Gordon Ritchie's "Lord's Witnesses" site for your information!  He sees codes everywhere in the Bible and uses them to prophesy end times events, which invariably fail and have to be revised.

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The early Hebrew, Roman, Egyptian, Mayan, Chinese and Babylonian Calendars were all likewise 360 days long with 12 months of 30 days each. This is why the circle has 360 degrees in it.

Incorrect (apart from the circle having 360 degrees part). Instead of relying on Ritchie's webpage or Keith Hunter's Illuminati Numerology ideas or a reputedly error-ridden book (Parise), try being more judicious about your sources, hey?

E.g. http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/Calendar.html
 

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ann - if I judged you on everything you said as a teenager I guess you would be red-faced right now.  Our organization was in its infancy when these things were written - yet you always go back to these things to try to prove some points. I have said so many times before that we have moved on since then.... Why repeat the same behavior and hope for different results - unless you want to stay in the same track!!!

You are like someone who has only one  track to one city only..... to find something to criticize you always go back to this....

Also - I clicked on some of your links - it seems you are always going to Wikipedia to get your information.... this is not good as we all are aware that there is some good info there - but it is not always reliable.

Arauna, in the whole of this thread, I have linked to Wikipedia only once and it was for Allen's edification. 

I also haven't cited an old Watchtower publication in ages - the last ones were part of an exchange with Allen who was disputing some history about the organization's early teachings.

As to the most recent posts here, I've been too busy to really catch up.

So I have no idea what you mean about 'teenagers' and 'infant organizations' and 'moving on' and my 'same behavior,' etc. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Why would a hunter of animals become such a great opposer of Jehovah.

The WT publications answer as follows:

*** w03 6/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
This does not authorize the wanton killing of animals for sport. At Genesis 10:9, the Bible describes Nimrod as “a mighty hunter.” But the same verse says that this put him “in opposition to Jehovah.”

*** g83 5/22 p. 11 The Hunter’s Role in the Wild Kingdom ***
Shortly after the Flood, a notorious man of those days, Nimrod, began to distinguish himself as an outdoor sportsman. He became “a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah.” (Genesis 10:8, 9) He evidently violated the God-entrusted stewardship over the animals by wantonly killing them. Others followed his lead, and soon the sport caught on in a big way. Hunting became the sport of kings.

On the matter of 'wanton killing of animals for sport' and how distasteful that was/is, I'd tend to agree. Humankind is supposed to be a good custodian of land and life.

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And why would the building of a tower be so bad?

As you quoted, the suggestion was that the tower was to reach the top of the heavens, i.e. reaching God's domain. They wanted to unify, becoming powerful and renowned as if divine.

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And the above stories that you mentioned - they are  -  'traditions of people.' ...

... Pity you always try to refute the Bible with writings of false prophets.....  people like Balaam..  Your loyalties seem to go to the falsehoods and not reading the authentic scriptures inspired by Jah. Moses wrote the book of Genesis in 1513BCE... so this was almost a 1000 years before the  Jewish "traditions" came along " post-exile" as you call it.

Funny you related the extra-biblical myths about Nimrod ... considering you were so dismissive of the calendrical information contained in Jubilees and Enoch.

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Ann, I did not say Daniel was written in Akkadian - 

Correct.

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I said there was a few Akkadian words smattered in Daniel.... ... which actually proves that Daniel wrote this book in his own lifetime.... apart from many other proofs.

Yes, you said Daniel "used some words in Akkadian in the book of Daniel and the writing on the wall also had some Akkadian words in it." But the book was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and the writing on the wall was in Aramaic. So what do you mean?
 

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Exactly, it’s supposed to be viewed as a prophetic year. That why the assertion that a 360 year is not possible is FALSE! Just proven by simple mathematics.

Please show me, with your 'simple mathematics' how 360 days can convert into 360 365.25-day years, as is necessary when multiplied by 7, to get to the year 1914.

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Daniel learnt Akkadian at the court of Nebuchadnezzar and used some words in Akkadian in the book of Daniel and the writing on the wall also had some Akkadian words in it

The book of Daniel was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The writing on the wall was Aramaic.

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Nimrod was a brave hunter but later started hunting people when he built an empire and went to war and built more cities. 

This is just one of the many embellishments on the Genesis account that built up post-exile. This particular one about Nimrod hunting people seems to come from the Targum of Jerusalem (or Pseudo-Jonathan). The same source also contains a story about Nimrod casting Abraham into a fiery furnace because he wouldn't commit idolatry, but the flames did not hurt him (sound familiar?).

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My husband always promised to take me there ..... but I will never go there now...too dangerous.

And many of those carefully and long-preserved sites have been vandalized or obliterated by Daesh thugs, sadly.
 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

They created the zodiac - the cult of which spread thru-out the earth (zodiac comes from the first Babylonian empire -

The 1st Babylonian empire was 2nd millennium BCE - circa 1830 - 1531 BCE.

The concept of the zodiac as we know it developed much later from the neo-Assyrian and neo-Babylonian periods onwards.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

arabic is the closest language to ancient Akkadian

Akkadian is a Semitic language which means it is closely related to both Arabic and Hebrew.

On 9/7/2016 at 0:46 AM, AllenSmith said:

[365.2425 (Solar) + [354.3829 (Lunar) = 719.6254 divided by 2 = 359.8127 and since you can round out .8127 to its highest denominator to 1, then, we simply round out 359.8127 to 360. See how simple mathematical science is.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/360-day_calendar adds:

"It is a simplification to a 360-day year, consisting of 12 months of 30 days each."

Yet, a year of 360 days is neither a lunar year nor a solar year. Yes, simple and fascinating.  

On 9/6/2016 at 11:19 PM, AllenSmith said:

The second coming of Christ no one will know the Hour or Day. That doesn’t mean there won’t be signs of that invisible coming.

Do you disagree with the GB's conclusion about the date of "that invisible coming," then?

On 9/6/2016 at 10:52 PM, Arauna said:

Why do you quote from apocryphal scripture that was written 'after' the holy scripture was already completed - so as to push the conversation again into another debate?.  I am not going into another debate about apocryphal scripture because you do not even believe in the bible...  This conversation is about the Bible and its prophecies. I think you are deliberately misleading this conversation to give smart sounding soundbites.   

1. Holy scripture wasn't completed in the 3rd - 1st centuries BCE when Jubilees and Enoch were written. The NT hadn't yet been composed, had it?
2. Regardless of whether the two books are now considered holy scripture or not (interestingly, Jude's epistle quoted Enoch so it must have been well known), they provide an insight into Jewish thinking and calendrical practices at the time, and therefore are pertinent to the discussion about a supposed 360-day year that JWs and some other Adventist groups have used in their prophetic time calculations.

Just because a person questions or disagrees with your views of biblical passages, and puts forward helpful, relevant information suggesting another perspective, it doesn't follow that the person 'doesn't believe the Bible.' Neither does it follow that a person believes the Bible to be 'inconsistent' because s/he sees inconsistencies in your interpretations of it.

On 9/6/2016 at 10:52 PM, Arauna said:

On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days and some hours.  To accommodate certain ritual requirements, the Jewish calendar consists of 12 or 13 months of 29 or 30 days. 

Yes, that's pretty much what I said and expanded on in my previous post. 

So a 360-day year is neither a lunar nor solar year. You would have to explain how a 360-day 'prophetic' year could be counted as a 365.25-day solar year, when every day matters in JWs' end-times calculation. There also remains the other question of whether the Aramaic word for 'times' in Dan. 4 necessarily refers to literal years. If there are flaws with either of these components in the formula (and this is without discussing the validity of the start date), the end-times calculation falls apart ... quite simply. 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

There is no 'assumption' that the year has 360 days.  The Israelites used the "moon year" with a short 13th month every 4th year...

The lunar year is 12 x 29.5 day months = 354 days. This means an intercalary (leap) month of either 29 or 30 days long had to be added every 2 or 3 years to re-calibrate with the solar year (thereby becoming a luni-solar system). An intercalary month would lengthen that year to 383 or 384 days long.

The 360-day year is neither a lunar nor solar year, but is a schematic one of 12 x 30 day months which then have to have the 4 epagomenal days (2 equinoxes and 2 solstices) added to make 364 days and better align with the solar year. The 364-day year divides neatly into 52 weeks of 7 days. (See Book of Jubilees, ch. 6 and information on the Book of Enoch's 'Astronomical Book').

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

However, revelation clearly gives the number of days for 3 and a half. So one only needs to double this number to get to 7. Quite simple...

But several leaps in assumption have to be made to arrive at the 'simple' conclusion. E.g. Why are 7 (360 day) years of 2,520 days stretched to 2,520 (365.25 day) years? Does the Aramaic word for 'times' in Dan. 4 necessarily mean literal years anyway?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

It seems to me, that Pastor Russell was referring to Christ taking control over the Church in 1878 ...

You mean you believe Russell thought Christ only assumed dominion over his Church in 1878? I can't find any evidence for that. It would suggest that Christ's Church has been without a Head from 33 CE to 1878. You surely don't think Russell believed that, do you?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

... not an actual statement which has nothing to do with the impression of the harvest time of 1914, or the temple inspection of 1918 or the spiritual deliverance of appointing the governing body in 1919.

Russell had no concept of a temple inspection in 1918 or an appointment of a GB in 1919 - even before his death in 1916. This is where it would benefit you to learn something about Watchtower history.

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

THE PRESENCE (PAROUSIA) OF CHRIST.
Some may have confounded our remarks on the presence of Christ in a spiritual body,
with the presence of the spirit of Christ; but they are quite distinct. The latter never left
the church; consequently in that sense He could not “ come again.” Of His spiritual
presence He said:“ Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” We refer
to the personal presence which did go away, and will come again,— a spiritual body .
The Greek word generally used in referring to the second advent— Parousia, frequently
translated coming — invariably signifies personal presence, as having come, arrived*
and never signifies to be on the way, as we use the word coming . This fact is recognized
by many who are looking for the Lord, but the error under which the church in general is
laboring, is that of supposing that presence implies sight, manifestation, appearance. In
the Greek, however, other words are used to express revelation, appearing and
manifestation, viz.: phaneroo — rendered shall appear in “ when He shall appear, &c.,”
— and apokalupsis **— rendered, shall be revealed— 2 Thess. 1:7.

Thanks for this quote. The part I've colored in red supports what I've been saying - that for a person to be present, that person has to first come/arrive. 

How do your other quotes negate my previous points?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You people keep insisting the two ideologies are linked. FALSE!!! They are NOT.

One ideology derived from the other. 

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

By the way O’Maly, I asked you first to prove that Christ was NOT enthroned in the heavens in 1914.

As I said, JWs make an assertion nobody else does. It is up to them to provide evidence. Anyway, you may have missed this from the first page of the thread:

"The 1st century Christians believed Jesus was already ruling amidst his enemies in their day, from as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at his Father's right hand. - Acts 2:34-37; Eph. 1:20, 21; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:21."

JW Insider also provided scriptural reasoning on why it couldn't have been 1914.

You have yet to produce any amongst all that word salad.

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ann -- cut paste, cut paste - quoting things out of context.  It seems you get your adrenalin rush by this kind of troll behavior... 

I am addressing Allen's misconceptions about Russell's beliefs. That is why I am reproducing Watchtower quotations, properly referenced so that anyone can read the surrounding material and check for themselves what was being taught. You will find that Allen makes erroneous statements that are corrected by the historical literature.

Please do not confuse trolling with having an open discussion, which is what Holly and I are trying to do here. Challenging a view is not trolling. If you really want to see examples of troll-like behavior, you only need to read through Allen's posts. 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

Russell did not understand everything we understand today....and even if he changed it? So what? 

So what? Well, Holly's thread is titled, 'The timing of Jesus' 2nd coming' and her OP asks whether that 2nd coming can be calculated through Bible chronology. Seeing as the Organization has a Bible-derived chronological scheme to calculate Jesus' 2nd coming or presence which was partly inherited from Russell and his friend Barbour, a discussion of Russell's beliefs are relevant to this wider topic.

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

We have proof today of the date of 1914 and guess what - the times of the nations -  it checks out!  

Allen asserted the same and I asked him to provide that 'proof.' He has yet to do so. Maybe you can give it a shot instead? 

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Pastor Russell Claim of the presence of Christ was to be felt by 1914.

That's not quite what he said in the excerpt. He said that Christ's presence will become revealed to people's 'eyes of understanding' over the next few decades, just like Christ's presence has been already been revealed to Russell and his fellow Bible Students living in 1881.

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He was speaking against to the predictions others were making.

Correct. If you read the context of the excerpt (that is why I gave a full reference so you can look it up), you will see that the Watch Tower was addressing the Second Advent Church's and others' expectations, based on Mother Shipton's prediction that Jesus would visibly come back in 1881.

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That no one could predicate Christ Second Coming. Did Pastor Russell make a prediction, NO! 

 

YES! Holly has already reproduced Russell's predictions.

But regarding Christ's second coming or presence, my excerpt shows he rejected others' calculations about an impending second coming because he (really Barbour) had already calculated that the Lord's second coming or presence had happened invisibly 7 years earlier.

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... he felt that Christ would be enthroned by 1914. 

He felt that Christ had been enthroned in 1878.

"It will be remembered that after the spring of 1878, (when we understand Jesus was due as King) that the subject of holiness or the wedding garment, was very much agitated." - ZWT, January 1881, p. 4 [R180]

As I say, learn your Watchtower history.
 

Another report:

http:// http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/21/where-s-the-outrage-over-nun-beachwear.html

Where’s the Outrage Over Nun Beachwear?

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU

08.21.16 5:15 AM ET

Immortality vs. everlasting life is a distinction without a difference. If you do not die, your life is everlasting.

But if a life is truly indestructible, it means not even God Almighty can extinguish it ... which kind of puts the indestructible person on a par with the Supreme Deity, does it not?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

What in the world does the flood account have to do with the second coming of Christ?

  Keep up, Allen.

Matthew 24:37-39 (ESV)

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking,marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Yeah? With it now? 

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[Mount Everest, Mount Ararat, blahdeblah] 

Can your science prove that? Yes or no?

See the links I gave to Arauna.

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

The earth was flatter than it is at present, that is, before the flood.

Response: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH570.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Many huge underwater cities exist all over the world that come from a pre-flood period.  

Therefore, they were submerged in 2370 BCE, right? Name the cities that were submerged in the 3rd millennium BCE.

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

 We find that many of the highest mountain peaks contain shells and fish. 

Response: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC364.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

(There are so many geological features that one can attribute to a mighty flood - but alas!  I forgot, scientists are not allowed to believe in the Bible. This would take away their credulity. 

Carol A. Hill's a geologist, a scientist and a Christian. Why not examine what she has to say about the biblical Flood?

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2002/PSCF9-02Hill.pdf

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Take one bucket of water and feel how heavy it is. .... now apply this weight to the amount of water which was on the earth during the flood.  The water band above the heavens broke and the bible says that water "under" the earth also came out. 

Yeah, think about water, its weight and pressure, and how it undermines the notion of a pre-flood 'water vapor canopy.'

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH310.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, there are some small  issues that we cannot fully answer now.....

And there are issues that can be answered with understanding how physical processes work, like plate tectonics, and fossilized seashells and fish on mountains, and how water behaves in different circumstances ...  

13 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

The heading states” The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming” and then the author proposes the following” Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?” it’s a misleading proposition. No one is talking about calculating the second coming of Christ.

Are you saying that a person can be present without coming? It's nonsense. You have to first arrive/come and, as a result of that, you are then present.

Imagine a roll call in a classroom.

The teacher calls, "Allen Smith?" No answer.

The teacher calls again. Nothing. "I'll note him down as absent ..."

A fellow student says, "Excuse me sir, Allen is present. He's here." The teacher looks around then quizzically at the student. The student continues, "He is present, it's just that he's not arrived at school yet."

Teacher and class go 

Besides ...

So you can see the words 'coming,' 'second advent' and 'presence' are used synonymously by Russell to refer to the same event that had been calculated to have occurred in 1874.

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Pastor Russell interpretation of events for 1914 was of Christ enthronement in the heavens. The WTS continues to believe that assessment to be correct

No, the WTS thought Christ's enthronement was in 1878, which date was discarded back in the days of Rutherford and replaced with 1914.

Learn some Watchtower history, Allen, for Pete's sake. 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Label people - and you can dismiss their ideas.  You may label us as part of the creationists so you can dismiss us as 'the same' but we do not lump ourselves together with people who believe the creation was completed in 24 hour days.

One cannot limit the scope of a word describing a belief because some believers disagree with others' ideas about that belief.

Is calling people 'evolutionists' labeling people to dismiss their ideas?

There are 'theistic evolutionists' (who believe God used evolution to create life) and 'atheistic evolutionists' (who believe evolution occurred on its own through natural processes) but despite their different outlooks on evolution, both camps are still evolutionists.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Creationists believe the 6 days were 24 hour days.  As I showed earlier - we believe these days were periods of time...because all 6 creative days are referred to as "a day" in the Bible.  This is a major difference. 

Creationists believe that God created the universe and everything in it as described in the Bible. Whether you are a 'young earth' creationist (in the '6 days/24 hours' camp) or an 'old earth' creationist (in the 'day = epoch' camp), you are still a creationist.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creationism

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/creationist

13 hours ago, Johnnifer said:

!tears are running down my face.

I'm sure tears were running down his face too ...

... but for different reasons 

. 

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

You use the phrase constructive criticism, Explain the need for Noah to place birds in the Ark if the event was local.

This was answered in the link I gave you. Read it. I don't want to deviate too far from the topic.

I don't understand your disdain for creationists as JWs are themselves creationists since they believe in creation.

Anyway, back to the point. Could the antediluvians calculate when the Flood would be? Yes or no?