JW Insider

To me, it means just what I think you are implying. That they may be either accused or excused. When mentioning this verse to some fundamentalist believers at their door I get a response like "see, they will all be resurrected so that God can tell them why he is sending them all to hell." There is the resurrection of the righteous (to heaven) and the resurrection of the wicked (unrighteous) to hell. I think they miss that word "excused." By the way, you haven't said anything in a while that I had seen. It's good to see your comments again.

But we wouldn't want all Witness weddings to be from the same congregation! Circuit Assemblies and Summer Conventions provide for a wider selection.

Yes, I am referring to priority and emphasis. Of course Biblical and prophetic understanding serves an important need. It was especially important for the apostles to come to recognize how all the Hebrew Scriptures had, in their own way, pointed to Christ. Understanding this is just as important of a spiritual need today, assuming of course that the spiritual need is encouragement and motivation through a better understanding of God's love for us, and in order to emphasize what Jehovah has lovingly promised to those who love Him. (As you know, I do NOT think that it serves any true spiritual need, when, for example, we claim that a supposed claim of understanding of prophecy should be used to motivate people to follow because we have special knowledge of the times and seasons, as if we were some kind of prophet. It may serve the opposite of a spiritual need, and in fact motivate people to follow just because of a certain time period, or even tied to a certain date or generation. In addition, such claims often lead to stumbling others, when it turns out that we were only guessing, while presumptuously implying that we had been spirit-directed in these guesses.) I agree completely that Galatians 2:10 fits in this context. I had just barely stopped myself from mentioning it myself. On Mark 12:32, I heard no such comments, but I also don't know that I quite understand your point. It's easy to understand why there were constantly new widows and orphans to look after as times were harsh, and Judea and Galilee were basically in a constant state of revolt where Romans could impress any man into service for themselves, or execute them. Men risked their lives in rickety ships, among robbers, on dangerous construction sites, and of course pockets of armed fighters were regularly killing and dying until things boiled over in 66 - 74, with Jewish fighters holding out well into the second century. And, as Paul said, everyone failed to uphold the Law perfectly. James gives counsel in his letter that appears to fit the situation of Christians failing to uphold these precepts and the "kingly law" due to class issues, prejudice, etc. You almost seem to say that it was more important to think about the widows devotion than think about why she was not being helped out of her situation as a poor widow. This would be a bit like saying we should not wonder about why people were being beaten up and ignored in Israel when we can focus on the good deed of a Samaritan man who didn't avoid him like his fellow Jewish neighbors had done. In the context of this topic, however, I am also toying with a much more controversial point. Who is to say that there is not a small group of people somewhere, perhaps a family living next door to us, or in a small village in China, with whom Jehovah is even more well-pleased than he is with persons in our own congregations? If they are loving their neighbors, feeding the hungry, clothing and housing the poor, and emphasizing justice and support for orphans and widows, who is to say that Jehovah does not impute righteousness and "Christianity" on them for purposes of judgment? These persons may say in the judgment, "when did we do these things for Christ?" And he will say to them that because they did these good things for their neighbors, their fellow humans, that they did it to Christ.

I would agree that it was a natural purpose for Christian meetings from the very beginning. Among Jewish Christians it must have been a primary purpose of those who meet together to find and discuss ways to practice true religion. (Hebrews 10:24-25) And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works [looking after orphans and widows, for example], 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near. Job showed he had understood it to be the same, as already quoted earlier. It had even become the core of the Law in Deuteronomy, where an expression like this one is repeated more than 10 times. (Deuteronomy 10:17-11:1) 17 For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty, and awe-inspiring, who treats none with partiality and does not accept a bribe. 18 He executes justice for the fatherless child [orphan] and the widow and loves the foreign resident, giving him food and clothing. 19 You too must love the foreign resident, for you became foreign residents in the land of Egypt. ... 11:1 “You must love Jehovah your God and always keep your obligation to him and his statutes, his judicial decisions, and his commandments. It was one of the purposes of the great assemblies (Festival of Weeks, Festival of Booths, etc) to offer ways to care for orphans, widows, and foreigners of all economic classes among them: (Deuteronomy 16:13, 14) 13 “You should celebrate the Festival of Booths for seven days when you make an ingathering from your threshing floor and from your press for oil and wine. 14 Rejoice during your festival, you and your son, your daughter, your male slave, your female slave, the Levite, the foreign resident, the fatherless child [orphan], and the widow, who are inside your cities. [Deuteronomy mentions the orphans and widows in this way more than 10 times] It was undoubtedly this same emphasis which was considered a way in which Jehovah, the God of love, cared for orphans and widows, stated in Psalm 146:7-9 7 The One securing justice for those defrauded, The One giving bread to the hungry. Jehovah is releasing the prisoners. 8 Jehovah is opening the eyes of the blind; Jehovah is raising up those bowed down; Jehovah loves the righteous. 9 Jehovah is protecting the foreign residents; He sustains the fatherless child [orphan] and the widow, Such actions are at the very core of true worship and holiness in Jehovah's eyes, as seen in Isaiah: (Isaiah 1:16-18) 16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove your evil deeds from my sight; Stop doing bad. 17 Learn to do good, seek justice, Correct the oppressor, Defend the rights of the fatherless child [orphan], And plead the cause of the widow.” 18 “Come, now, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah. “Though your sins are like scarlet, They will be made as white as snow; Though they are as red as crimson cloth, They will become like wool. The pronouncements against the wicked religious leaders of Jerusalem in Ezekiel referred to the way in which orphans and widows were treated. And it was part of the reminder in Zechariah about the opportunity for a clean slate with respect to the rebuilt temple. The same point was made in the very last book of the Hebrew Scriptures: (Malachi 3:4-6) And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be pleasing to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity. 5 “I will come near to you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who take false oaths, against those who defraud the hired worker, the widow, and the fatherless child [orphan], and against those who refuse to help the foreigner. These have not feared me,” says Jehovah of armies. 6 “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. I know that you were already aware, but it's easy to forget that not looking after widows and orphans, not paying a just wage, etc., could be put on the same level of sin as "sorcery." It's easy to forget that looking after orphans and widows was central to true worship. Back to the point about organization, it is ideal to think that the one organization which focuses so much on true teaching as its ministry would also be the one that is best at organizing an outreach to its own orphans and widows. But I bring it up in the way I did because I fear it's too easy to separate true worship from taking care of the less fortunate among us. The apostles devoted themselves to a study and understanding of Scripture in the face of what had just happened to the hopes they had pinned on Jesus. They needed to meet together to understand how Jesus fulfilled Scripture even in his death, and needed to be able to build up an even more sure hope for the future. Because of this, elders in prominent positions today have no doubt felt that it is their duty to do the same, often (I fear) to the detriment of those who lack material needs in the congregations. Governing Body members and their helpers spend much time organizing conventions that are more about Biblical and prophetic understandings than they are about ways in which we will help those in need in spiritual ways. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus speaks of those who are poor in spirit (depressed?), humble (meek), and hungry for justice (righteousness). We tend to focus much more on those who are "conscious of their spiritual need," and those who are looking for "accurate knowledge." These things are all good, and a teaching ministry is very important, but I'm sure it's possible to spend too much time thinking and rethinking our changing doctrines, when some of the time spent spinning our wheels could have gone to organizing more efficient ways of taking care of material things, too. Perhaps the apostles already did this work for us in clarifying the foundation for the teachings about Christ, and their work has come down to us in the form of the Christian Greek Scriptures. There must be a reason that the Bible says that he who does not take care of his own is worse than a person without faith.

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others: (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. (Matthew 5:34, 35) . . .neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet;. . . (Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. (Acts 3:25) . . .: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ (Acts 17:25, 26) . . .. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, (Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . . (Colossians 1:20) 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. (Hebrews 2:5) 5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. (2 Peter 3:13) 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 21:1) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;. . .

What I miss most is the ability to put tiny, tiny notes in the margins and then, back when my eyes were younger, being able to give an impromptu talk on any Bible book or chapter just by reading the margins or "reading between the lines."

I happen to love carrying my songbook, Bible and other literature in my iPhone. My recently-deceased aunt played the piano at the Kingdom Hall for many years and they let her continue to play into the 1970's. For a few years (in the 1960's) she even played her Hammond organ and recorded a couple of albums professionally. She was more recently afflicted by Alzheimer's and lived with my parents for the last few years. In cleaning out my parents house last week we came across 2 fairly new iPads with cracked screens. Turns out that my aunt had gone up to the literature counter and asked for an iPad because she saw everyone else using one. My parents bought them as needed. She didn't get the "hang" of it exactly and damaged a couple of them. But I have heard of very few problems outside of the "going on-line" temptation during the meetings, and some dinging and buzzing for those who have data plans with theirs.

This one seemed to coincide with today's text, but with some unexpected examples in paragraph 9, 16, 18, 19 on reduction of Branch staff, and use of electronic devices. Put Trust in Our Active Leader—The Christ “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—MATT. 23:10. ... 9 What can we learn from this account? We may not at times fully comprehend the reasons for new initiatives put forth by the organization. For example, we may at first have questioned the use of electronic devices for personal study, in the ministry, and at the meetings. Now we likely realize the benefits of using them if possible. When we see the positive results of such advancements despite any doubts we might have had, we grow in faith and unity. ... 16... André, a newly appointed elder, has always been attentive to changes in direction within God’s organization. He says: “The reductions in branch office personnel remind us of the urgency of the times and the need to focus our energy on the preaching activity.” [Edited to add: There was a time, not long ago, when the increase in branch office personnel was supposed to remind us of the urgency of the times, see below.] 18 If we perceive the spirit behind the instructions we receive from Jehovah’s organization and their beneficial effect on us, we will likely follow that guidance with joy. We certainly appreciate that reducing the amount of literature being printed saves money; using new technologies allows us to further the Kingdom work throughout the earth. Having this in mind, we may be able to use electronic publications and media more extensively if possible. In this way, we will reflect Christ’s concern to use the organization’s resources wisely. 19 When we earnestly uphold Christ’s direction, we strengthen the faith of others and contribute to unity. Reflecting on the reduction of the size of the global Bethel family, André remarks: . . . Times and methods change of course, but I remember many talks just before and after I applied to Bethel about how it was due to the urgency of the work that there would be a huge increase in branch office personnel: *** yb04 pp. 215-216) *** In 1976, I was surprised to receive a letter of invitation to Bethel. The words “urgent” and “immediately” were underlined in the letter. . . . I have now served at Bethel for more than 27 years. Although I have some physical limitations and have not had much secular education, I keep exerting myself so that Jehovah can use me. There are still urgent and immediate needs at Bethel! *** yb99 p. 28 Highlights of the Past Year *** The 50-percent increase in the number of publishers during the 1980’s had resulted in an urgent need for more space at Bethel. *** g75 1/8 p. 17 A Unique Family That Serves Others *** All of these who are now members of the Bethel family were moved by the urgent need of people to hear the good news of God’s kingdom, and so came to Bethel to share in furthering the preaching work from there. *** w08 5/15 p. 20 par. 17 While You Are Young, Choose to Serve Jehovah *** Have you considered . . . . Kingdom Hall construction, Bethel service, and the missionary field . . . . Since time is running out for Satan’s wicked world, entering these avenues of Kingdom service becomes more urgent every day. Will you go through the “large door” while there is still time?

Thanks for pointing this out. I thought it was unfair for the paper above (from 2017) to have focused on his racing hobby after a car accident that was more likely caused by distracted driving, the article says. His business was window-washing, but his wife apparently brought up the hobby because that's evidently where more people knew him from: He was well-known in model racing circles, npi. Looking up Jon Grainger Slot Cars on Google will give you pages of articles and images showing how well-known he was to hobbyists and competitors: Jon Grainger – The Digital Slot Car Association www.officialdisca.com/2017/11/jon-grainger/  Jan 25, 2018 - Jon Grainger of Norwich, UK, first took part in DiSCA competition in the Pendle Slot Racing hosted Group C series of 2013. Joining the Racing ... Jon Grainger (ferraif40), a life cut short - The Pit Lane - SlotForum www.slotforum.com › SlotForum › SlotForum Community Forums › The Pit Lane  Nov 14, 2017 - It is with great sadness that I'm sharing the news here that Jon Grainger, know on the forum as ferraif40, has passed away. I'm not aware of the full details of his death other than that he was involved in a car accident yesterday. ... ...So sad and shocking to hear that Jon's life has ... Merc W196 and Maserati 250F Streamline - Scratch building ... Dec 31, 2015 UK Slot Car Festival pre-1986 Racing British Classics - Page 3 ... May 18, 2014 News from 'Stryker Racing Slot Car Kits - News - SlotForum May 22, 2013 Stryker News; Ferrari 126C2 - Resin Kit - News - SlotForum Jan 21, 2013 His web site probably from about 5 years ago (https://strykerracing.weebly.com/about-us.html ) says the following about his hobby: About Us -ABOVE The main shape of the car is formed- Stryker Racing Slot Car Kits specialise in the production of 1.32 scale slot car bodyshells. Stryker Racing is ran by Jon Grainger, an 18 year old slot racer living in Norwich, whos interests lie between building beutifull models and racing them on the track. Hence the cars are not only fantastic models, but also hand picked thanks to their good diemensions, making them perfect for racing. Some of our models are made using 3D printing, but mainly cars begin their life in the hands of Martin Field, one of the very best model and pattern makers in the world. Martin is well-renowned, and has been employed by some of the biggest firms in the world, and has worked in many different countries. The main shape of the car is crafted in Ureol, an epoxy modelling board. Further details are soon added, using filler, brass tube and wire, and plastic. This is then coated in 'self etch' a filler which smooth’s out the shell in preparation for moulding. Further details such as wings, wing mirrors and wheel inserts are also produced by Martin and prepared for casting. The whole master is thinned out so that a two part mould can be produced, perfect for racing, as it keeps its strength, while losing excess weight. The finished master is then sent to Steve Francis, a London based caster, who works his magic with silicone and resin, turning the pattern into a resin slot car shell. Its a messy and smelly job, but despite this, Steve produces perfect replicas of the original master.

Just a wild guess, but based on the accents and the way they use the metric system, I'd say it's Trinidad and Tobago: Lendore Congregation Enterprise Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses 22-24 Tobago Road CHAGUANAS 500815 TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO

Sounds more familiar to one of the Green 1950 songs, but I can't remember which one for sure. I'm hearing two of the old songs mixed together in it. The affinity is very close to the progression and cadence of the old Kingdom Song, "God's Army Is Advancing" (Now named: "God's Warriors Are Advancing" but with a different tune.) In the old song, if divided into 4 "stanzas," the music to stanzas 1, 2 and 4 are very similar. I think this song is even closer to the 1950 version of "All Hail the Lord's Anointed. (2)" which was called "Christ's Glorious Reign" in the 1948 edition. Several of the older Kingdom Songs (1966) use the same rise and fall, and therefore seem to end with nearly the same last 10 notes (Be Long-Suffering, Be Strong In Faith, All Hail Jehovah's Firstborn, Pouring Out the Seven Last Plagues, etc.).

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing. This must have already been producing a "generation" problem even as early as 1922 which was 40 years after 1881. (The proofs for the 1881 date were confirmed by quoting some points from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures.") That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935, along with the same claim of only unfaithful anointed being replaced after 1935. This is no longer stated this way, although there is still a clear level of discouragement associated with new ones who feel they might be of the anointed class. But, yes, the harvest is primarily the anointed. *** w13 7/15 p. 10 par. 4 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** Speaking about the wheat and the weeds, Jesus said: “Let both grow together until the harvest.” This command reveals that from the first century until today, there have always been some anointed wheatlike Christians on earth. That conclusion is confirmed by what Jesus later told his disciples: “I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:20) So anointed Christians would be protected by Jesus all the days leading up to the time of the end. However, since they were overgrown by weedlike Christians, we do not know for certain who belonged to the wheat class during that long period of time. However, some decades before the start of the harvest season, the wheat class became discernible. Those "some decades before the start of the harvest season" were then called the "harvest season," a 40 year period from 1874 to 1914, then quickly changed by Rutherford to mean a 40-year period from 1878 to 1918 (a doctrine that lasted through most of Knorr's leadership, too.) It was much more recently that we readjusted the harvest season to a much longer period starting in 1914, sometimes adding "and especially since 1919." Obviously, most of the anointed counted among us have come into the fold after 1919. So we still have a harvest season that has been simultaneous with the growing season. I think something like that is possible. After all, there is at least one flaw in my presentation that tries to use the idea that "synteleia" in Greek more often refers to a "final destructive end" not a drawn-out ending or "conclusion." The flaw is that Jesus spoke in another illustration of begging the master of the harvest to send out more harvest workers. Therefore even if the event itself is a singular final end, the harvest work (preparation for harvest) could mean sending people into the field for a longer, extended period of time. This is in the same sense that someone might be involved in election work for months or years before the actual election. So, that event or situation, if that were the solution, would likely be identified with the time of cleansing of the organization, which has variously been identified prior to 1914, then 1914, sometimes 1918, 1919 (most often), and further hints of "cleansing" have been identified with 1926 (when the elder arrangement was abolished), 1971 (when it was re-instated), etc. etc. One could go back to 1931 or 1935 again, or Splane's famous 1992 date for the end of 1914 generation prior to the overlapping extension.

Assuming the fish were not driven to suicide through some disease, it's too bad it didn't happen in a poor region like Calcutta, etc. This was from September 2015 when the fish washed up in Kerala, India and Sri Lanka. Unfortunately, these are some of the best economies in the region. I visited Kerala when I went to Bangalore (just North of Kerala) for one of our IT departments . The entire region is big on IT service and other services. The threshold for poverty is lower, but we have a higher percentage of people considered to be living in poverty in the United States. And here is Colombo, Sri Lanka below:

The ORIGINAL, of course, was none other than Frederick W. Franz giving his infamous graduation speech to the 59th class of Gilead, which was just one number off from being the 60th class of Gilead, and 60 times 100 is SIX THOUSAND, which was a surprising and startling and happifying thing over which we can rejoice. These are his ACTUAL words: And when you come to think about it, dear friends, it's really remarkable. Today, do you know, is the seventh day of September, Nineteen Hundred and Seventy-Five. [Loud audience stirring can be heard.] And do you know what that means according to this diary, Hebrew diary, from the land of Israel? Why this is the second day of the month Tishri of the lunar year Nineteen Hundred and Seventy-Six. And do you know what that means? That here on this day of your graduation, why, it is the second day of the SEVENTH MILLENNIUM of man's existence here on earth. Isn't that something? Isn't that something, friends? [Loud applause from the audience.] That the opening days of the seventh millennium of mankind's existence is signalized by the operation of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in full compliance with the terms of its charter, sending out the fifty-ninth class of the Gilead School for missionaries. And furthermore, I'm told that, eh, by the arrangement of the New York Corporation, we already have some twenty brothers and sisters who are going to form class number sixty in the Gilead School. And, very interesting that at the end of sixty centuries of human existence here on earth, why class number SIXTY is going to start its schooling at the opening of the seventh millennium of mankind's existence. These are, eh, surprising things, startling things, HAPPIFYING things over which we can rejoice.

THE FOLLOWING IS A PARODY EVEN THOUGH, SORRY TO SAY, ONLY ABOUT 3,000 JW'S HEARD THE ORIGINAL GILEAD GRADUATION TALK: And when you come to think about it, dear friends, it's really remarkable. This year, 2018, do you know, is the 144th year since Eighteen Hundred and Seventy-Four? And do you know what that means according to this famous book, that just celebrated its 100th anniversary? From the Seventh Volume? That book gave pages and pages of proofs that 144 years ago was the date of Christ's Second Advent. It was the beginning of the SEVENTH MILLENNIUM of man's existence here on earth. Isn't that something? Isn't that something, friends? The book says the following, and I quote: "A thousand years.—The Millennial Day, the Day of the Lord's rest, following the six thousand years of evil which ended in 1874." That, exactly 144 years ago, the opening days of the seventh millennium of mankind's existence is now signalized, 144 years later, by the operation of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in full compliance with the terms of its charter, sending out the 144th class of the Gilead School for missionaries. And furthermore, I'm told that, eh, by the arrangement of the New York Corporation, we already have some 44 brothers and sisters who made up this class number 144 in the Gilead School. That's only one digit, the hundreds digit, from 144. And the hundreds digit is only one order of magnitude from the thousands digit: the MILLENNIUM digit. And, very interesting that at the end of 144 years from what we once saw as the beginning of the MILLENNIUM, why class number ONE-HUNDRED-AND-FORTY-FOUR is ready to graduate. And what is 144 times ONE-THOUSAND? Why, it's 144,000! Why is that significant? Well, think about the great work you are participating in. The Seventh Volume says the following: Of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.—“As the number of the Bride of Christ is to be 144,000, it would be reasonable to think that each number of this class may have 144,000 to look after, as 144,000 x 144,000 equals 20,736,000,000 (twenty billions seven hundred and thirty-six millions), evidently just about the right number to be cared for—144,000 would be quite a host for each individual of the Bride class to look after. So we can see the necessity for the work of the Great Company.” These are, eh, surprising things, startling things, HAPPIFYING things over which we can rejoice.

You might be putting the cart before the horse. The "harvest" is when the wheat is pulled at the end of the system when the wheat is gathered into wheat bundles and the weeds are gathered into weed bundles: (Matthew 13:28-30) . . .The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’” (Matthew 13:37-43) . . .“The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen. Officially, we start the harvest closer to 1914, but it seems more scriptural here to apply it to the time when the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father, the time when the angels collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and pitch them into final destruction. The wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest, until the angels bundle them. Therefore, if there are still any seeds being planted, and if there are any more Christians growing, then we cannot be in the harvest yet. Growing occurs UNTIL the harvest. (And the corollary: if the harvest began in 1914, then there has been no planting, watering, and growing since 1914.) While we wish we could apply more of these in Matthew 13 to 1914 and 1919, and we once did, notice how much trouble we now have trying to fit it all to 1914/1919: *** ws13 7/15 pp. 13-14 pars. 13-17 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** Third, weeping and gnashing. After the angels bundle the weeds, what happens? Speaking about the condition of “the weeds,” Jesus says: “There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.” (Matthew 13:42) Is that happening right now? No. Christendom is part of the harlot described in Revelation chapter 18. Even today, Christendom says about herself: “I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.” (Revelation 18:7) She still feels she is in control and even tries to be “a queen” with power over political leaders. So false Christians represented by the weeds are still boasting today. They have not started to weep. . . . 15 Fourth, pitched into the furnace. What will happen to the bundles of weeds? The angels “will pitch them into the fiery furnace.” (Matthew 13:42) This means that they will be completely destroyed. So the ones who belonged to those organizations teaching false religion will be destroyed during the final part of the great tribulation, Armageddon.—Malachi 4:1. 16 Fifth, shining brightly. Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matthew 13:43) When and where will they shine brightly? This part of the prophecy will be fulfilled in the future. And it will be fulfilled in heaven, not on earth. (See endnote.) We will now discuss two reasons for understanding the prophecy this way. 17 First, when will this happen? Jesus said: “At that time the righteous ones will shine.” Evidently, the expression “at that time” is connected to the event Jesus had just described, that is, the time when the weeds are ‘pitched into the fiery furnace.’ That happens during the final part of the great tribulation. So the anointed must “shine as brightly as the sun” at that future time as well. Second, where will this happen? Jesus said that the righteous ones will shine “in the kingdom.” In the official view, the harvest began over 100 years ago, and yet we are still planting and watching the field grow.

True. By the way, this will be a very "nuanced" point, and I'm afraid a lot of us will find good reason to disagree. Some might even think this part of the discussion is dangerous. But surely it is just as dangerous to toy with blasphemy and idolatry which might be done in the way that some think of the organization and the need to "put faith in [the] organization." *** w18 January p. 13 par. 5 Pleasant Unity and the Memorial *** By ‘testing whether we are in the faith.’ To do that, we do well to ask ourselves: ‘Do I really believe that I am part of the only organization that Jehovah has approved to accomplish his will? *** w79 3/1 p. 18 par. 21 Faith in Jehovah’s Victorious Organization *** But, steadfastly, devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah’s organization. They know which one of all organizations on earth the Almighty God has used . . . . Is there any cause for us to lose faith in Jehovah’s visible organization . . ? *** w54 11/1 p. 667 par. 19 Walking in Good Behavior *** Do we have strong faith in Jehovah’s organization? Then loyally and actively support it. Your regular attendance . . . I know that "Gone Away" responded to the same point by comparing how one might have faith in their spouse, for example. But, of course, it would still be wrong for a spouse to eclipse our relationship with Jehovah, or if we were to attribute salvation to our spouse. And while there is scriptural backing for a "people for God" or "ark of salvation" perhaps it is only our own materialism --leaning on our own understanding-- that keeps us from seeing that Jehovah and Jesus might not see these man-made denominational boundaries the way we ourselves do. It's true that the material, physical nation of Israel represented a picture of what would be true of Christianity. But I'm pretty sure we need to look more closely at how those pictures were only shadows of the things to come. Israel was organized as a physical nation, and the Law was physically written in stone, but in Christianity there would be a new covenant written in hearts. (Jeremiah 33 and Romans 2:29): (Romans 2:29) 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people. (2 Corinthians 3:3) . . .inscribed not with ink but with the spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets but on fleshly tablets, on hearts. (Jeremiah 31:33, 34) 33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.” 34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.” (Jeremiah 4:4) 4 Circumcise yourselves to Jehovah, And remove the foreskins of your hearts,. . . I find it instructive that the Bible's contains admonition against inadvertently "worshipping" the sun or the moon, and it is not about bowing down to them formally and following some specific rituals common to sun worshipers. Instead it is about how one might be secretly seduced by their beauty and magnificence. I also think it's instructive that basic religion as described here in Job also includes exactly the primary points that Jesus said were worth more than the Mosaic Law. (Job 31:14-34) 14 What can I do when God confronts me? What can I answer him when he calls for an accounting? . . . 16 If I refused to give the poor what they desired Or saddened the eyes of the widow; 17 If I ate my portion of food alone Without sharing it with the orphans; . . . 19 If I saw anyone perishing for lack of clothing Or a poor man with nothing to cover himself; . . . 21 If I shook my fist against the orphan When he needed my assistance in the city gate; . . . 24 If I put my confidence in gold Or said to fine gold, ‘You are my security!’ . . . 26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then. . . I would have denied the true God above. 29 Have I ever rejoiced over the destruction of my enemy Or gloated because evil befell him? . . . 32 No stranger had to spend the night outside; I opened my doors to the traveler. 33 Have I ever tried to cover over my transgressions, like other men, By hiding my error in the pocket of my garment? 34 Have I been in fear of the reaction of the multitude, Or have I been terrified by the contempt of other families,. . . It's about hospitality, loving one's enemies, loving justice, kindness, looking after orphans and widows, and looking after the hungry, thirsty, and even the homeless in their tribulation. When persons are without clothing we give them something to wear. These are all things that mirror Jesus' words and the book of James about what motivates true Christian religion and on what basis we will be judged. (I included 33 and 34 only because they show that in "true religion" when thinking of our own accounting before Jehovah, we do not hide our errors, but humbly admit them, even as an organization involved in an important teaching ministry.) I mention this in advance because I also think it is sacrilege to claim, out of context, that giving a glass of water to one of Christ's brothers means treating the 'faithful and discreet slave' with proper respect. In its Biblical context, it was part of the discussion that we should all be motivated to do good for everyone, and that even those non-followers of Jesus who just happen, therefore, out of kindness to treat Christ's followers kindly, will be counted as Christ's followers. This is another example that might bear on the original question. We can claim that something in 33 C.E. changed all that, so that everyone had to join the Christian congregation from that point on, and start giving "glasses of water" to the anointed, but this is far from the point Jesus was making. It seems he was really saying that Christianity could be imputed even to those who didn't know they were Christian: (Matthew 25:37-40) 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ In our current WTS view, we avoid the idea that just any Christian might actually find Christ's brothers hungry and feed them, because this contradicts our current view of the "faithful and discreet slave." This must be why we ignore quote and focus on the "drink of water" instead. We had no problem imagining them scattered among various denominations as wheat from the year 200 until the late 1800's. You must have the idea that there was a point in time when this changed. We like to think it must have been around 1919 when the "slave" was to have been appointed. A true Christian might have begun to notice the religion that began teaching no hellfire, and no Trinity at that time, but it wasn't the largest non-Trinitarian denomination (although I think it was quickly to become the largest non-Hellfire denomination). But remember that these teachings, although I think they were most important, were not the primary focus in 1919. The primary focus was a false prophecy about 1925, and that false prophecy remained the primary focus from 1919 right up into the beginning of the year 1925. And it was still heavily infected with the "cult of Russellites" even according to the admissions of our own publications. Don't get me wrong, there was plenty to agree with, and there were plenty of beautiful expositions of Scripture to be found in the Watchtower, the Seven Volumes, the Harp of God, and various booklets. Most of the beautiful things were not unique to the Bible Students, though. MOST of the focus at the time was on maggots and worms as "Gone Away" has referred to some of these teachings. I'm not saying that Jehovah didn't bless the work of those brothers who continued looking for gems within the Bible Student movement. We have to consider whether any true Christian would (or should) have even considered joining the Bible Students between 1919 and 1925. So at what point did Jehovah stop finding wheat scattered among various denominations. At what point did Jehovah start declaring that all wheat must now be found within the confines of a physically defined denomination? Again, I must explain that I think we are better off and safer as Christians associating with the brotherhood that allows us to practice Christianity in the best way we know how. We can have "faith" that the best place for us is among Jehovah's Witnesses. But as you said:

Figured it had to be something like that. I am relieved that the Fall date was not derived or divined from some passage in Revelation. Since about 2013 I've noticed a lot of large-scale marketing attempts by the Roman Catholics, LDS, and of course even JWs and others, and I'm not sure that the continuation of "interfaith" movements is not also just another marketing idea that someone brainstormed for the Pope. I'm glad you are keeping an eye on things like this, but I have my doubts that the 2018 version will be any more significant than 2016, 2017, or even those big ecumenical attempts by Catholics in 1964 and 1965. The differentiation of ideologies between youth and "establishment" in 2015 and 2016 showed itself to be significant through political rallies, and the Catholic Church was "smart" enough to try to pull off a piece of that for themselves. It was not as active as the 1960's but even a Bernie Sanders or someone like him in countries outside the US, was easily able to rally an instant, if naive, crowd. I'm sure the Pope thought: why not me?

I've shared my opinion that many of us (hopefully) associate with Jehovah's Witnesses, not because we think it's an automatic ticket to salvation, but because it provides an environment that best matches (as far as we know) what we would expect the first century congregation to look like in the twenty-first century. It provides the environment to do good for one another, spiritually encourage one another, give materially to one another, preach and teach people about God's kingdom, raise the spirits of the broken-hearted both inside and outside the congregation, live a moral life based on the principles of the Bible that provides a "witness" to the Bible's value and usefulness even in this modern age. It provides a social circle that allows our Christianity to flourish, but also allows us to see the warnings and pitfalls of our human condition. We see brothers and sister that we love dearly for their humility, talents, love of truth, love of God, and love of neighbor. We see brothers and sisters that we are concerned about for their contentiousness, presumptuousness, haughtiness, legalism. But all this is also what the first century saw: a range of qualities. Many Witnesses associate because they think that associating really is the "ark of salvation" and that it is therefore an automatic ticket to salvation as long as they don't stray too far and can rush back under this "wing of protection" in case they are slacking off at the time that the "Peace and Security" cry gets convincingly loud enough. (Or some analogous announcement that seems like it's a last-minute sign to straighten up and fly right.) I've talked to enough young brothers and sisters, and my grown children have talked to enough brothers and sisters, that I know I can use the word "many" when I speak of those who think like this. As far as Biblical reasons can help us see whether there is only one true religion, we know that there is only one true religion. But the Bible never says that there is one physical organization that embodies that one true religion. The true religion is looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation. The true religion is prioritizing love, justice, and mercy over rules of conduct, and rules of organizations. The true religion is the humble, loving attitude of our heart toward Jehovah and our neighbors, even our enemies. It has nothing to do with a showy display of prayer and process or an audience. Organizations require specific works; the true religion requires loving motivation based on faith. Ideally, there could be a human organization, directed by God's spirit, that attracts all the people who practice that "one true religion." We believe we have found something close to that which is why we both associate with the same organization. But if we don't also clearly see the flaws, then we will begin to think of that organization as our salvation, which is blasphemy and idolatry. Jesus himself said that if they are not against us they are for us. There are other senses in which those who are not for us are against us, but this does not negate that we should find the true meaning of the former. Jesus also said that wheat and weeds (tares) would be indistinguishable until the very end, judgment day. Jesus also (in Revelation 2 and 3) does not speak of a central governing committee that makes decisions about what is acceptable in a Christian congregation and what is not. Jesus speaks of holding each congregation separately accountable for the actions they take for and against various teachings and practices. And of course we have the example of Paul in Galatians 1 and 2, where he appears to demolish the entire idea of one central body of elders as the governors of their faith. In about the year 49 C.E. when most apostles were still alive and several of them still evidently operating out of one congregation in Jerusalem, it would have been very tempting to think of them as some kind of single governing body whose word and decisions would become the "rule" in all the worldwide brotherhood. But Paul indicated that this was a "foolish" mistake.

If you have already elaborated on this, I missed it. I have appreciated some of your views that include political references because they are much more astute than those of any average U.S. or Western-allied citizen who is dependent on corporate media such as FOX News, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, etc., which have very little truth value. Of course, not that it matters whether I agree with you, but you have a very interesting take on Bible prophecy. I don't believe "predictions" based on Bible knowledge hardly ever come true. I believe that events will reveal Bible truth in time, of course, but I don't believe that anyone who points to a future fulfillment tied to "the times and seasons" will ever be right except by coincidence. So, because I am a complete skeptic, you can probably see through my motive. I would like you to explain what you mean by "such an enemy will rear its ugly head in Texas during the Fall"? If I am still participating on this forum in the Winter, I'd be happy to discuss what had likely gone wrong with your prediction about the Fall. Because it will likely prove Jesus correct again when he states that the times and seasons are in the Father's jurisdiction. Of course, I'm not picking on you. I believe such predictions from ANYONE ( @Brother Rando, @Israeli Bar Avaddhon, The Watchtower, or from anywhere else) are "wrong" for Biblical reasons. If you are willing to provide a few more specifics, it will make this discussion easier sometime after December 22, 2018. I want to make sure that "during the Fall" refers to 2018, and doesn't mean during the Fall of Babylon.

KM School (for elders) up until 1974/5 included training for elders on medical issues (blood/pregnancy/transplants/psychology) especially when it was taught by Brother Schroeder in Pittsburgh. But Bert Schroeder also had some crazy ideas about medical/health issues which have since been dropped from the Watchtower, such as claiming that a heart transplant (or blood) from a criminal could make you a criminal, that the heart is the physical seat of emotion, etc. (Some were just personal ideas that never would have been put in the Watchtower anyway, such as believing that people who changed from left-handed to right-handed when they were younger would become hypoglycemic in later years.) Most medical issues have been dropped from elder training, and the expression that Jack Ryan quoted is considered all-encompassing: There are groups of elders in the HLC who are trained to know that this isn't true, such as with blood issues, so that would not be embarrassed if they were to make such a claim in front of hospital professionals. But most elders, and therefore most Witnesses who learn from them, have a feeling, for example, that there are never occasions when people really need to die from lack of a blood transfusion or from allowing a life-threatening pregnancy to continue. These Witnesses, including non-HLC elders, will believe it is the fault of the medical professionals if things go wrong. This is why there have been more malpractice suits brought by JWs against doctors and hospitals that are actually discouraged by the WTS and those with more medical training.

That was a better idea, because Cross and Hell were part of the discussion, too. But I had already jumped the gun and moved the conversation to an on-going discussion of Trinity here: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/55859-the-trinity-and-it’s-false-theology/

@Brother Rando, There were two simultaneous discussions of Trinity and related topics, and one was under a topic that didn't have anything to do with Trinity. So, I moved those into your topic here, since it had a better title for this discussion. I hope it doesn't cause confusion. It affects comments by @Space Merchant, @Jesus.defender and @Anna.

“Comfort all that mourn.” Isa 61:2

If I get a chance later today or tomorrow, I might move the conversation that was especially between @Space Merchant and @Jesus.defender under another topic. This way it will be easier to find later and will not bog down this particular topic: "Will only JWs be saved?" If either of you have a good title in mind for the topic after it is moved, just respond here and I'll keep it in mind when naming the moved topic.